'Racist thug' detained for attack

[LLETSA]

hahahaha...you're too easy.
now watch out there might be a darkie around the corner!!!

Have you got anything to say that has any actual content?

 

[LLETSA]

I thought it was your forte!

P.S. I could answer your questions, but fuck it - we'd only get into a slanging match. My "evidence" is from Asian youths who saw Walter Chamberlain walking through the industrial estate in Westwood prior to his attack.

Verifiable evidence, I meant, you silly little student boy.

 

[R.I.C.O.]

Verifiable evidence, I meant, you silly little student boy.

Piss weak wind up merchant. Go take your "verifiable evidence" claim and shove it up your arse.

 

[LLETSA]

Dig deeper Ricky boy

I thought it was your forte!

P.S. I could answer your questions, but fuck it - we'd only get into a slanging match. I also see that your also living up to your user profile. My "evidence" is from Asian youths who saw Walter Chamberlain walking through the industrial estate in Westwood prior to his attack.

Were they the attackers' mates then?

Not that I have any need to ask. Seeing as you're making it up, like.

 

[audiotech]

And the white males who were regularly set upon in Oldham during the 1990s were perceived by their attackers as neither 'babylon' nor NF. They were on the offensive and, where they could get away with it, did not choose their targets with care.

Verifiable evidence?

 

[LLETSA]

Piss weak wind up merchant.

That's not the way any reasonable-minded person reading through the thread would see it. But there you go.

 

[R.I.C.O.]

Well then I'd have to go and ask "Walter Brierley" about that, whoever he is...

 

[LLETSA]

Well then I'd have to go and ask "Walter Brierley" about that, whoever he is...

I put a question mark beside the name bcause I wasn't sure if I'd remembered it right. But with all the publicity the incident received it won't be difficult for you to find out.

 

[butchersapron]

Well then I'd have to go and ask "Walter Brierley" about that, whoever he is...

This would be the WC who released a statement with his family telling the BNP and other racists to not use his beating to further their own agenda and that he felt race was not an issue in the attack - this would be the same drunken racist racist would it? Hmm...

 

[LLETSA]

Verifiable evidence?

I don't have any verifiable evidence to hand and I'm going out in a minute or two. However, the difference between what I'm talking about and what RW is saying is that he makes claims that I have never heard anywhere before regarding the old man who was attacked. It was a heavily-publicised incident that took place relatively recently and it should therefore be easy to come up with the goods regarding evidence for his claims should any exist. What I am talking about, on the other hand, is a large number of attacks that took place over ten years or more in many different areas of the town. While some documented evidence no doubt exists, it is hardly necessary to produce it in the context of this argument, as we are not talking about an isolated incident but a widely acknowledged phenomenon. It might even have been mentioned in the Ritchie Report into the Oldham riots for one thing. Searchlight might have summat too. Why not have fun googling while I'm out?

 

[audiotech]

I don't have any verifiable evidence to hand and I'm going out in a minute or two. However, the difference between what I'm talking about and what RW is saying is that he makes claims that I have never heard anywhere before regarding the old man who was attacked. It was a heavily-publicised incident that took place relatively recently and it should therefore be easy to come up with the goods regarding evidence for his claims should any exist. What I am talking about, on the other hand, is a large number of attacks that took place over ten years or more in many different areas of the town. While some documented evidence no doubt exists, it is hardly necessary to produce it in the context of this argument, as we are not talking about an isolated incident but a widely acknowledged phenomenon. It might even have been mentioned in the Ritchie Report into the Oldham riots for one thing. Searchlight might have summat too. Why not have fun googling while I'm out?

A critique of the report is given here.

The Ritchie (2001) report on the situation in Oldham, although funded by the Home Office, differs from Cantle in a number of respects. There is less emphasis on the discourses of social cohesion, social capital, etc. and more emphasis on evidence about economic and social conditions, and the impact of local policies in relation to housing, education, etc. In addition rather more emphasis is given to White racism. However, like the other reports it does not to analyse the 'riots' in any detail, but rather focuses upon the wider social and economic context. Whilst this might be seen as a laudable aim it has the practical effect that what happened in the 'riots' is not really examined at all. No evidence is presented and the causal connections between the wider economic and social context and the riots are assumed rather than demonstrated. This is a common feature of the reports. They construct issues that can be 'managed'. The 'riots' themselves are depoliticised, and reduced to criminal justice questions.

There is also a comment about 'Minority communities who 'have adopted a toleration of certain types of criminality' (Cantle, 2002: 40). The context of this can only mean racially motivated crime.'

Which suggests that this sort of crime is not reported by these communities and therefore doesn't reflect fully the reality of racially motivated crime.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...20conference.doc+Ritchie+Report&hl=en&start=1

 

[hibee]

What never fails to depress me way is impossible to talk with any sense of perspective about race attacks. Read any far-right messageboard and you will find it is their biggest hardon (after white women marrying black men, of course). On Stormfront or wherever you'll find reams of cut and pastes from newspapers about black-on-white crime - only some of which is racially motivated, and coupled with strange comments about how the media are ignoring them (where did they find out, then?)

You might expect more from the left. Unfortunately, you'd be wrong to do so. On this thread we have seen some incredibly depressing posts which suggest certain people do not want to confront the real world.

Lletsa has beaten me to making the point that the left still acts as though everyone from an ethnic minority is a vulnerable first-generation immigrant. I work alongside a lot of young asian men, none of whom would welcome this victim status. The likes of the Kriss Donald murder have proved that, human nature being human nature, young alienated men ghettoised into different communities are capable of acting like racist arseholes whatever their background. From my own perspective of growing up in the west of Scotland, I can only offer the analogy of Irish immigrants like my own family - at first persecuted by "natives", but no-one now denies that sectarianism in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Ayrshire and beyond does not go both ways. Unfortunately, that is the very real prospect that faces some of England's communities if we carry on with our heads in the sand.

Cockney speaks as though the media's demonisation of asylum seekers and minorities is the only way in which it refers to race. As Lletsa says again, this is not 1977. Talk of gypsies, refugees etc has developed to the extent that "official" anti racism is now incorporated into its approach. The tabloids love black men, but only when they've been murdered by "white thugs". Because of course then the business of demonising the "white working class" can begin in earnest. Cockney's analysis has no explaination for the Mail's "defence" of Stephen Lawrence over a decade ago. Where does that leave it now?

This is my thousandth post on these boards. Aside from making me wonder where my life's gone, I'm starting to feel depressed about the left ever confronting reality.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

- at first persecuted by "natives", but no-one now denies that sectarianism in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Ayrshire and beyond does not go both ways.

Should that say does NOW go both ways? Not trying to be too pedantic but it makes a big difference.

 

[hibee]

Should that say does NOW go both ways? Not trying to be too pedantic but it makes a big difference.

Yes, in the respect that catholics and protestants are now more or less on the same economic footing in Scotland. Not that I think kids from my school battering random prods when I was growing up was made more acceptable than the reverse by some sort of hierarchy of oppression, which I hope you're not implying.

 

[Clintons Cat]

Because of course then the business of demonising the "white working class" can begin in earnest.

I wonder whats in it for the tabloids though? I can understand the curtain twitchers of the Mail demonising the WWC as thugs and hooligans,but what about the red tops? whats in it for them,what do they gain by pontentially alienating a substantial part of their demographic?* I cant see there being a direct profit in such simple divide and rule tactics.I can see from a class perspective how it helps supress solidarity between the workers,but the Murdoch elite i feel probally have different imperitives

(*cite)the suns disasterous "hillarious" Proud to be a chav" campain that wiped 50,000 off its readership in the month it was launched.

 

[hibee]

I wonder whats in it for the tabloids though? I can understand the curtain twitchers of the Mail demonising the WWC as thugs and hooligans,but what about the red tops? whats in it for them,what do they gain by alienating a substantial part of their demographic?* I cant see there being a direct profit in such simple divide and rule tactics.I can see from a class perspective how it helps supress solidarity between the workers,but the Murdoch elite i feel are probally have different imperitives

(*cite)the suns disasterous "hillarious" Proud to be a chav" campain that wiped 50,000 off its readership in the month it was launched.

I'm not a tabloid editor and I don't like second guessing Murdoch. But it should be pretty clear that "official" anti-racism can be as anti-working class as racism was when it was a socially acceptable button-presser. The Sun simply could not go on putting out some of the more blatant stuff it did in the early 80s and maintain any kind of acceptability (let alone sell as many papers). A more subtle approach is called for. Unfortunately, because it has fallen into the establishment's trap re: the politics of race and class, the left has no analysis for this.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Yes, in the respect that catholics and protestants are now more or less on the same economic footing in Scotland. Not that I think kids from my school battering random prods when I was growing up was made more acceptable than the reverse by some sort of hierarchy of oppression, which I hope you're not implying.

I'm not implying anything, just clarifying. With it saying not instead of now it says the opposite of what you mean. Not a big issue really.

 

[audiotech]

And the white males who were regularly set upon in Oldham during the 1990s were perceived by their attackers as neither 'babylon' nor NF. They were on the offensive and, where they could get away with it, did not choose their targets with care.

There is something going on that the left does not want to recognise. This is because their ideology and way of looking at events belongs to a different era than the one we are living through.

This from Community Cohesion: A Report of the Independent Review Team.

Actual and - equally important - rumoured far right activity was a focus for some organised response by young Asian people which, in turn, reflects a level of distrust about the police handling of racist incidents.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs2/pocc.html

As I indicated in a previous post, rumours of far-right groups activities and distrust of the police are an important feature of such events.

Disturbances occurred in areas which had become fractured on racial, generational, cultural and religious lines and where there was little dialogue, or much contact, between the various groups across those social divides.

In many, but not all cases, trouble arose after months of racial tension and widely reported racial attacks - both Asian on white, and white on Asian.

The disorders themselves took place either in, or on the margins of areas inhabited predominantly by Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities.

Far-right organisations had been active in some, but not all of the areas, although rumours of far-right activity were reported by the police to have raised tensions in other areas.

The arrest or failure to arrest certain individuals, assaults and other criminal activities often played a part in spreading disturbances; and the disorders escalated as word of them was spread (e.g. by mobile phones) and others joined in.

My emphasis.

 

[Clintons Cat]

I'm not a tabloid editor and I don't like second guessing Murdoch. But it should be pretty clear that "official" anti-racism can be as anti-working class as racism was when it was a socially acceptable button-presser. The Sun simply could not go on putting out some of the more blatant stuff it did in the early 80s and maintain any kind of acceptability (let alone sell as many papers). A more subtle approach is called for. Unfortunately, because it has fallen into the establishment's trap re: the politics of race and class, the left has no analysis for this.

thanks

 

[audiotech]

Searchlight might have summat too. Why not have fun googling while I'm out?

I'm reluctant to quote Searchlight, however, I found this from CARF which may be of some interest with regards to the events in Oldham and racist incidents?

Redefining racist crime:
As an example let's consider some recent events in Oldham. For four years, Gulfraz Nazir's family in Limeside, Oldham was subjected to racial harassment by gangs of up to thirty racist youths armed with crowbars and hammers, who tried to attack their shop. Whenever the police were called they failed to turn up in time to make a difference. Finally Gulfraz organised with friends to defend his family from the gangs. The result was a running battle on the streets between armed white youths and Asians.
http://www.carf.demon.co.uk/feat29.html

Also:

The police in Oldham have long shown an indifference to racially motivated street violence against Asians in the town. In the summer of 1989, Tahir Akram, a 14-year-old schoolboy, was walking to his home through the predominantly Pakistani area of Glodwick when he was shot with an air rifle pellet by a group of whites, who had been taking random shots at people in the neighbourhood. The pellet entered his eye and killed him. The police claimed that the attack was not racist. A protest planned by the Asian community was called off in the face of mass hostility from the town’s authorities and the local press.
http://www.carf.demon.co.uk/feat54.html

Crucially:

...at a time when there was, for once, a move at the national level to tackle police racism, the image of gang warfare and ‘no-go areas’ provided a useful alternative story, one in which the real problem was racialised gang violence. The police would then seem to be caught between two rival gangs rather than, as in the Lawrence case, themselves part of the problem. Hewitt’s approach, and its faithful reporting by the local press, set the template that would be used repeatedly over the following two years to interpret what was happening in Oldham.
http://www.carf.demon.co.uk/feat54.html

Finally:

In the white areas of town you will see the words ‘Pakis Out’ painted on road signs. Abdul Malik-Ahad, a Westwood community worker, believes that if an Asian were to go onto those estates, within ten minutes they would be chased out. ‘It is something we just live with’, he says. ‘We live with racism day in and day out. We face it in employment, when we go for jobs, when we are on the buses. When people use this phrase "reverse racism", they don’t understand what racism really means.’
http://www.carf.demon.co.uk/feat54.html

 

[cockneyrebel]

tbaldwin you're a total bore. Liberal racist blah blah blah

As someone has said earlier people come to Britain to try and find a better life. You seem to think this is a bad thing, and people should be forced to stay where they are born.

As for me thinking the white working class are scum, you really are a fuckwit. Yeah I think my family and friends are all scum.....fuck off you piece of shit.

Hibee where did I say the media only reports race in one way. My point was that the right-wing media clearly uses immigration to push a racist agenda.

And where did I say that black and Asian people were just victims? Another load of bollox....

Interesting post by MC5.

 

[hibee]

Hibee where did I say the media only reports race in one way. My point was that the right-wing media clearly uses immigration to push a racist agenda.

Do me a favour. Yeah rights for whites are needed, we're all so hard done by in terms of the media aren't we......

The main stream media concentrate on immigration and crime day in, day out. Even bollox about asylum seekers eatting swans manages to get into the sun.....

The first paragraph can be taken to mean that reporting of "white" crime is reasonable while the second says "black" people are misrepresented. You completely ignore the fact that official "anti racism" is also entrenched in the media and is, in its own way, as reactionary, devisive and anti-working class as "traditional" racism. Your focus on coverage of asylum etc suggests you have no analysis for this, and your understanding of establishement attitudes to race is a good 20 years out of date.

And where did I say that black and Asian people were just victims? Another load of bollox....

I was referring here to RW's strange logic - the OC was one-sided in its reporting, therefore everything it said was untrue.

 

[cockneyrebel]

The first paragraph can be taken to mean that reporting of "white" crime is reasonable while the second says "black" people are misrepresented. You completely ignore the fact that official "anti racism" is also entrenched in the media and is, in its own way, as reactionary, devisive and anti-working class as "traditional" racism. Your focus on coverage of asylum etc suggests you have no analysis for this, and your understanding of establishement attitudes to race is a good 20 years out of date.

The first paragraph is saying that think the whole "rights for whites" agenda is a load of bollox. That doesn't mean I think that it's unreasonable to report racist attacks on whites. The "rights for whites" agenda is the bollox that groups like the BNP come out with that try and equate the racist experiences of white people (as a whole) with black and Asian populations, which is clearly a load of bollox.

The second paragraph talks about immigrants, not just black people. And what I'm pointing out is the daily barrage of attacks on immigrants from the media and the racist agenda behind it.

I have said time and again on here hibee that I don't agree with the liberal anti-racist measures. Once again I'll give a link to Workers Powers view on it, which I agree with:

Reforming the system? Assimiliation, integration, Labour and multiculturalism

However when attacking the liberal idea of multiculturalism I think people have to be very careful. Most of the attacks on muliticulturalism are currently coming from a right-wing agenda and if you join in those attacks you may well be seen, rightly or wrongly, as coming from a right wing agenda.

 

[hibee]

The first paragraph is saying that think the whole "rights for whites" agenda is a load of bollox. That doesn't mean I think that it's unreasonable to report racist attacks on whites. The "rights for whites" agenda is the bollox that groups like the BNP come out with that try and equate the racist experiences of white people (as a whole) with black and Asian populations, which is clearly a load of bollox.

The second paragraph talks about immigrants, not just black people. And what I'm pointing out is the daily barrage of attacks on immigrants from the media and the racist agenda behind it.

I have said time and again on here hibee that I don't agree with the liberal anti-racist measures. Once again I'll give a link to Workers Powers view on it, which I agree with:

Reforming the system? Assimiliation, integration, Labour and multiculturalism

However when attacking the liberal idea of multiculturalism I think people have to be very careful. Most of the attacks on muliticulturalism are currently coming from a right-wing agenda and if you join in those attacks you may well be seen, rightly or wrongly, as coming from a right wing agenda.

Who brought up "rights for whites"? You did, in response to the idea that the media were reporting white-on-black and black-on-white crime differently. The implication being that to do so meant following a "rights for whites" agenda (not that I agree with much that tbaldwin comes out with).

This is all tied in to the broader question of the liberal attitude to race, which much of the left has bought into wholesale. I'm glad WP has a position on this subject. It's just a shame that, like so many other trots, you think posting up a link to the party line is a substitute for expressing your own thoughts.

 

[hibee]

As it happens, Cockney, I agree with you about the term "multiculturalism". It means very different things to different people and I prefer not to use it. If you attacked "multiculturalism" where I work people would assume you were a racist who wanted an all white society. As you say the right's recent assault on the term is very different from where I'm coming from. For the sake of clarity I'd rather talk about liberal apartheid or whatever.

 

[cockneyrebel]

No I brought up the “rights for whites” in response to the tone of tbaldwins posts, which I think come across like something out of Richard Littlejohn column. That’s very different from saying that I don’t have criticisms of liberal anti-racist policies.

And the media do treat different race crimes differently, but overwhelmingly the media has a racist agenda against black and Asian people which far surpasses, IMO, any bias against not reporting racist crimes against whites. Of course the media also has an anti-working class bias, whatever peoples race, no-one disputes that. The Sun while putting itself forward as a working class paper, has total disdain for working class people, just as much as any liberal paper like the guardian.

The only reason I put up a link is because I’ve outlined my position before and can’t be bothered to go through it all again, so it’s easier to put up a link. I hardly ever put up links in my posts as it goes, but don’t think there is anything wrong with doing it at times.

 

[Herbert Read]

Basically what LLETSA and tbaldwin are saying is that the wogs brought it on themselves.

After all they should lie down like good coons and if they get a slapping or their mum is spat on then...they should go to the OB...hahahahahahahah. fucking minorities eh? just cant take a good kicking like the old days...

I hate to defend LLETSA but he is not saying that, he is stateing that hate crime and racism is a two way street. I have been attacked by british asians for been white and working class, as we inhabit the same area tensions can flare up.

Just like the white community the asian acommunity harbours racists, misogyinists, wankers, wife beaters, bigots and all. This is because they are human and subject to the pressure of pressures of life and society and some people are just dicks regardless of ethnicity!

Failure to critique the holy grail of ethnicity has led us into the current climate of shite that we are in now.

 

[tbaldwin]

tbaldwin you're a total bore. Liberal racist blah blah blah

As someone has said earlier people come to Britain to try and find a better life. You seem to think this is a bad thing, and people should be forced to stay where they are born.

As for me thinking the white working class are scum, you really are a fuckwit. Yeah I think my family and friends are all scum.....fuck off you piece of shit.

Hibee where did I say the media only reports race in one way. My point was that the right-wing media clearly uses immigration to push a racist agenda.

And where did I say that black and Asian people were just victims? Another load of bollox....

Interesting post by MC5.

Where did i say that people should be forced to stay where they are???

What you seem totally incapable of understanding (with your silly Littlejohn references) is a left wing position that is anti immigration.

The Orthodox Left position of Asylum seekers welcome here is just RACIST,LIBERAL crap
It totally ignores who does well and who suffers from Immigration.

Youy Liberals just seem to think that the Immigrants who come here should be grateful and that the people left behind should be happy that weve taken their nurses, teachers and engineers etc.
Perhaps thats why Workers Power have so many Black Supporters?

You really have no idea.
I bet that within 10 yrs time, groups like the SWP etc will finally change their position on immigration because they will realise just how stupid and racist the present position is.

 

[tbaldwin]

As it happens, Cockney, I agree with you about the term "multiculturalism". It means very different things to different people and I prefer not to use it. If you attacked "multiculturalism" where I work people would assume you were a racist who wanted an all white society. As you say the right's recent assault on the term is very different from where I'm coming from. For the sake of clarity I'd rather talk about liberal apartheid or whatever.

Liberal aparthied sums a lot of it up.
Its Liberals patting themselves on the back, who employ nannies and cleaners. Who love the bohemian atmosphere in inner cities, the foreign restaraunts.
They congratulate themselves on how nice and liberal they are. They think its good that there are so many Doctors and Nurses from abroad.
They are big big fans of Integration up to a point.....

They have written off the people competing with immigrants for housing and jobs (though theyd never admit it) and the people left behind in countries that are losing all their most educated people.

They are RACISTS who cant recognise the fact.

 

[james_walsh]

You really have no idea.
I bet that within 10 yrs time, groups like the SWP etc will finally change their position on immigration because they will realise just how stupid and racist the present position is.

We live in hope! But i dought it.