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Questions to the Scots ....

aylee

In exile in Haringay
There is nothing loaded in these questions .... just genuinely curious about what seems to be a seismic shift in the balance of power in Scottish football.

Here's the current Premier Division table:

1 Hearts 18
2 Celtic 13
3 Kilmarnock 13
4 Hibernian 13
5 Rangers 10
6 Inverness CT 8
7 Aberdeen 7
8 Motherwell 7
9 Dundee Utd 5
10 Falkirk 4
11 Dunfermline 2
12 Livingston 1

My questions for those of you who know more about Scottish football than me are:

(1) Can Hearts sustain this and make a serious challenge to the Old Firm's duopoly?

(2) Are other teams, noticeably Hibernian and Kilmarnock, also becoming genuinely competitive?

Or is this all a flash in the pan, and are we going to finish the season with Celtic and Rangers both some thirty or forty points clear again?
 
Every so often some club other than the Old Firm has won the Scottish League, though it's been some time since the last time. I remember when Kilmarnock were League Champions, and were followed by nine years of Celtic domination.
 
i haven't had a chance to see either hearts or hibs play yet but celtic are pretty piss poor tbh... the huns / celtic game earlier this season was perhaps two of the worst teams i have seen playing that fixture. The huns for their part have made a few interesting signings but i'm still not convinced that mcleish *really* knows what he is doing yet.... the same could of course be said about WGS. Craig Burley is probably the best manager in scotland right now so in answer to 1) assuming that they don't get injuries then yes, it may be possible 2) i'm not convinced myself... i think celtic and the filth are getting worse tho.
 
Its an Ipswich Town thing. Hearts and Hibs managed by Burley and Mowbray and both are above Rangers. Who'd have thought it, eh?
 
aylee said:
(1) Can Hearts sustain this and make a serious challenge to the Old Firm's duopoly?

Extremely unlikely. Don't forget they have still to play either half of the old firm who, while both poorer than I can ever remember (perhaps Celtic circa 1991 were worse), have vast reserves of both cash and support in comparison to the Jambos.

Hearts have as a majority shareholder Vladimir Romanov who has pledged to compete with the OF. He said this week he expects to win the title (which should jinx him from the start). However, he is a pretty dodgy character who some of my jam tart mates suspect is just trying to build a launchpad for launching his lithuanian bank in the uk. Many of the players he has brought in over the summer are on loan deals financed from his own pocket (ie not through the club). It is not sustainable. While the OF have huge, 50k+ stadiums, Tyncastle has a capacity of 18,000 and Romanov won over the fans on a pledge not to sell up and move to an out of town facility. So their income stream is limited, especially as they will have to close one of their stands for rebuilding this year.

The current Hearts side is, I'll admit, very good (they turned us over 4-0 after all and we are otherwise unbeaten this season) but not, over the space of 8 league encounters with the of, good enough to win the title.

What they might be capable of is finshing second. This is not as radical as it sounds. As recently as 1995 Motherwell finished second and us third, with Celtic fourth. But then the SPL with all its financial inquities was in its infancy. Depending on how long Rangers' run in europe lasts (they did well against Porto but poorly domestically before the game) the huns may find themselves overstretched. But I still doubt it.

(2) Are other teams, noticeably Hibernian and Kilmarnock, also becoming genuinely competitive?

Or is this all a flash in the pan, and are we going to finish the season with Celtic and Rangers both some thirty or forty points clear again?

On a good day, we've always been able to welcome either half of the OF hoping we can get a result. In four league encounters with Celtic last season we won 2 (home and away), drew one, lost one.

But you are dealing with two clubs who are in the top 20 richest in the world - and that is with only a fraction of the tv money enjoyed by their premiership counterparts.

In comparison, our most expensive player cost us five grand. The rest came through either the youth side or free transfers. This is an unusual situation, and won't stay like that for long, but it illustrates the spending gap.

Killie have had an excellent start to the season but over the summer were talked about as likely candidates to go down. They have a brilliant asset in Kris Boyd but are financially fucked. When the injuries start kicking in they will be in trouble.

I would love to see a more competititve SPL but what we are looking at right now is a readjustment from the OF. They won't finish miles ahead of everyone else (they didn't last season, either) but they are far and away the biggest and, sadly, best clubs in Scotland.
 
hibee said:
What they might be capable of is finshing second. This is not as radical as it sounds. As recently as 1995 Motherwell finished second and us third, with Celtic fourth.
iirc, the year after that celtic finished 4th again, with aberdeen in 2nd and motherwell in 3rd.
 
As ^ that lot have said, not so much a power-shift as a storming start from Hearts. However, not one that I see being sustained throughout the season. The SPL is becoming more competitive, with teams being less scared of the OF as they were previously.
 
Don't hold your breath waitng for bubbles to burst.
It's been long overdue since the "new firm" of A/deen and arabs were running the show.
I really hope other teams produce a credible chalange. Even the sparra heids. (hearts)
It can only be good for Scottish football.
Remember 1983?
 
harryenfieldandchums_3.jpg

Fuck off whippersnapper! :mad:
 
Ich bin ein Mod said:
What, me being born was good for Scottish football? :p


that and dundee united winning the league! :p

I think hearts can & will win the league this year.

I say this because, ignoring the old firm, Hearts are better than any of the other teams by some distance. They've got the best manager in the league and some of the best players. Fysass, Skachel, Gordon, Hartley, Pressley are all players good enough to walk into either of the old firm teams. I had a feeling at the start of the season things were going to be interesting, as when Celtic were signing Camara (who?) on a free from Burnley, Hearts are signing a Greek international Fysass from Benfica as left back whilst also holding onto players such as Gordon, Webster, Pressley, Hartley giving the team a strong and Scottish backbone. Paul Hartley is proving to have become a better midfielder than Rangers Barry Ferguson, who seems to get worse every time I see him??

I think looking at their team, if they can keep their first 11 fit for most of the season the league may be wrapped up very quickly. And even if they do have a few injuries along the way, there is cover. I would personally like to see hearts win the league by 30 points. Now this may sound daft being a United fan, but I can't wait to see empty seats in fortress Ibrox against Livingston come February...Maybe when the old firm realise what losing the league by 30 points feels like, they wont come to our grounds and sing "what a shitey home support" when the only reason it is shitey is because of the strong hold they have over everyone else. The league has needed somebody to come in and shake things up, and it has happened...but Rangers and Celtic as much as they say they are happy this is happening - I really don't think they are. They are only happy when they win every game 5-0. It is almost like they have a divine right to be champions year after year. I hear the rangers fans are boycotting Tyncastle because they haven't been given as many tickets as they normally get...Humph…cream puff indeed (maybe it is because they are scared they are ((and will) be getting a fleecing next Saturday ;) )

Regardless of who is paying for all of this “revolution” (that dodgy banker Romanov), and how it is being financed, one thing is for certain he is ploughing his dough into the club and investing heavily in the players. And Hearts are now getting results. Now clearly the Chairman has ulterior reasons for being at the club, but he is unlikely to pull out his money when they are winning the league and getting a full house every week, not to mention the prospect of champions league next year. His investment has shown (so far) to be a clever one, he has proved how with a bit of guts and the right people in charge the old firm are there for the taking (more so this year than ever) And I think this Romanov revolution may have caught both the old firm unawares – I guess time will tell.

I just don't think in the past 10-15 Rangers have had as bad a side as they have this year. It is built up of mediocre players. Outwith Prso who is a bit of class. And Celtic are not the team they once were under O'Neil...although they are still a solid squad, and they finally look to be coming onto a game. Losing Mcnamara and more importantly their main man O'Neil is a big worry for them. Although they still have the best front line in the SPL, perhaps one of the best in Britain? But when you compare the managerial records of Strachan, Mcliesh and Burley…it becomes clear who has the best manager.

I was very optimistic at the start of the season that hearts were going in the right direction...there just seems to be that Chelsea buzz about them. The Chelsea chairman Ibramovich (who was/is just as dodgy as Romanov) ruthlessly took a mediocre EPL side and created an invincible team with his own money. Now I'm not saying Hearts are on the same level, and obviosuly the investment is not on the same scale - but - the scottish premier league is not on the same scale or level. Hearts don't need to be invincible, they just need to be solid - and the are. The SPL Champions Rangers are signing players like Bernard and Jeffers? I mean are these the types of players hearts are meant to fear? If I were a manager I’d personally be more afraid of Jankaukis and Bednar than Jeffers and Novo.

As for the other sides getting better, Hibs for sure are. Last year, they were great. They are a young side with some great young players emerging. Not to mention Mowbry knows the score tactically. He's a good, all be it inexperienced boss at a sleeping giant that are Hibs. Sad to see them lose their captain to Rangers, but I thinking rinsing them 3-0 on their own patch kind of made up for that. I'm surprised as anyone about Kilmarnock, I tipped them for the drop this year...

But I think teams like Aberdeen and Motherwell seem to be competing better, but I don't think this is because they have upped the standard, more that celtic & Rangers (who in my view were the weakest side to ever win the league in my lifetime last year) have dropped a down a level. When they used to have players of a different class the the normal such as Van Bronchurst, they now have standard SPL players in their team, and it shows, especially in Europe.

Next few weeks is going to see the title decider :p If hearts win at Inverness and Rangers slip up again they will be ten or more points clear. Then the following Saturday, Mcliesh takes his team, exhausted from European action to a packed Tyncastle...against a physically stronger and technically better team. Only one outcome if you ask me!
 
arab said:
that and dundee united winning the league! :p
Snip
I think you'll find it was Aberdeen. The Arabs maybe won it in '84 or '85.

I could be wrong though but as far as my memory goes, the Dons won the league, scottish cup and the Euro cup winners cup in 1983.
 
Dilzybhoy said:
I think you'll find it was Aberdeen. The Arabs maybe won it in '84 or '85.

I could be wrong though but as far as my memory goes, the Dons won the league, scottish cup and the Euro cup winners cup in 1983.

82/83 united won the league. The season after united got to the semi finals of the European Cup versus Roma.
 
arab said:
82/83 united won the league. The season after united got to the semi finals of the European Cup versus Roma.
Sorry your right, they won the Scottish Cup and the Euro Cup Winners Cup.
I remember the "new Firm" were practically dominating domestically and both doing really well in Europe.
I always remember them winning three cups that year. Did they win the League Cup?

I also remember Dundee Utd were challenging for everything and ended up with nothing. Hence the name of the Fanzine. The final hurdle.
 
arab said:
. Then the following Saturday, Mcliesh takes his team, exhausted from European action to a packed Tyncastle...against a physically stronger and technically better team. Only one outcome if you ask me!


Spot on arab mate.
With Romanovich's money, and a downturn in spending capacity of the OF, the gap is certainly narrowing. 5 pts ahead of Celtic, 11 pts ahead of Rangers!
One thing tho' - no matter how suspect Romanovich's motives may be, no way is he nearly as dodgy as Abramovich who has built Chelsea on the sweat and blood of the Russian proletariat.
Watching the game today, there was only ever going to be one winner, even before Bednars beautiful header. Hearts showed a hunger, and edge and a will to win that was totally absent in Rangers.
Bring on the Celtic...........
 
This is goping to sound like sour grapes coming from me, but it's far too early to be talking like that.

One victory against the OF does not mean you should be cleaning out that cabinet. Last season our tally against Celtic in the league was P4, W2 (home and away), D1, L1. An excellent score, but we still ended up a distant third. We did Rangers 3-0 at Ibrox. So what? They're shit.

There is no doubt about it, Hearts are a very stong side at the moment (good enough to beat us 4-0, before anyone else brings it up). But I do not believe 8 games in Jambos can talk about turning over decades of OF dominance. Yes Celtic and Rangers are as shite as I can remember. But you have got to play them 7 more times.

Hearts winning the title is a possibility in forthcoming seasons (although I suspect Romanov will have used up the club for his own purposes by then). But there is just not the structure at Tynecastle this season to support it. Wait till the injuries start kicking in January time.

I'm going to bookmark all these Jambo predictions now and return to them in May...
 
Doesn't matter really.
The point is that no longer can the OF just turn up for 3 points.




PS well done on thrashing the 'Well.


NOT!!!! :(
 
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