Quantum holographics.

[cesare]

IF (and it's quite a big if) If each of our cells,and each cell of the universe,contains another universe,and each cell of each universe contains another universe. Then we've got a infinate number of realities. Also,what happns if we go up instead of down? Are we just inside a single cell,which is inside another cell. How far would it go? I laid awake until about 2am this morning pondering it. The closets i could get to an answer was there is no beginging as such,and there is no end. It is just infinate,in all directions.

I wanna see a video of a hologram being cut in half

Generally, people seem more able to grasp the concept of infinite vast easier than infinite tiny.

 

[MadDruminFerret]

I find its th other way round; i can look at my fingertip and imagine looking closer and closer, but an 'outward' infinity i cant visualise at all. Theres a quote in th book which goes something like: "God is a circle whos center is everywhere and whos circumference in nowhere"

 

[merlin wood]

iirc there is nothing controversial about the Aspect experiment (which is very famous in certain circles).. quite the opposite it confirms one of the main principles of the Standard Model of Quantum Mechanics... it is proof of a kind that Bell's inequality is violated in the real world and so that there cannot be any 'hidden variables' explaining the entanglement of the two vastly seperated photons, electrons or whatever.

Not true at all, in fact. If the Aspect type experiment proves anything it's only that local hidden variables interpretations cannot explain long distance entanglement. Whereas such nonlocal interpretations as Bohmian mechanics could still be valid. And this was the whole point of such experiments as conceived by John Stuart Bell, who devised the theorem that made such experiments as Alain Aspect's possible. See J.S. Bell's book Speakable and unspeakable in quantum mechanics or here

an consequence of this is that faster than light transmission of information is not possible.

But as Aspect's experiment showed, the faster than light effect of quantum entanglement is measurable and hence Bohmian mechanics could still be be valid.

no need for any additional mumbo jumbo the Standard Model is quite weird enough on its own

Just so. and thus the idea of there being "virtual particles" and vast amounts of totally invisible "vacuum energy" in quantum field theory could be just mumbo jumbo, even though it is supposed to explain the Casimir effect.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

needs more lhc

 

[merlin wood]

If the the results of the LHC experiments actually prove anything. And such high energy particle physics experiments are one thing, whereas Aspect-type ordinary energy Bell inequality experiments are quite another.

 

[MadDruminFerret]

I find non locality WAY more confusing than the concept of infinity... its completely counter intuitive. Talbots book describes the explicit and implicit orders: the explicit is the stuff we can see and interact with, which unfurls from the implicit order of all things; hence the two particles in the EPR exp. (and indeed all particles) can communicate faster than light because they are conncected via the implicit order. If theres any good proof for a holographic universe, i think thats it.

When ARE they turning the LHC on btw? I know theres a thread about it but ive heard about 10 different dates, most of which have already passed.

 

[merlin wood]

Actually what I find to be completely counterintuitive is atoms being virtually hollow objects with electrons surrounding the tiny nucleus obeying the Pauli exclusion principle, and nothing causing this to be so but the hugely powerful EM charge force acting so as to attract electrons to the nucleus and repel between electrons.

Whereas if you just admitted to there being a cause acting in addition to the charge force that acts so as to maintain the subatomic organisation and overall form of atoms then one can consider that this would not be a cause that attracts or repels objects.

Hence such a cause would have no measurable strength that could reduce or cease with increasing distance between objects such as electrons, and so the nonlocality of quantum entanglment as an effect that doesn't vary in any way with distance. And hence also, the electron wave would act as a distinct cause that maintains the atom's overall form despite the action of any forces.

But then, of course, the problem arises as to how you could describe any details of such an additional cause to clearly show that and how it would act upon matter...

 

[xenon]

Anyone read The Self Aware Universe?

 

[xenon]

LHC is in a preparitry phase ATM. Think they start shooting shit round it (physics jargan), later this month.

 

[merlin wood]

Anyone read The Self Aware Universe?

Ever read an account that just seeks to clearly explain how matter is the way that it is in terms of cause and effect?

 

[cliche guevara]

Just to make it clear, the fact that subatomic particles appear to be able to communicate instantaneously by no means suggests that anything with mass would be able to travel faster than light.

 

[camouflage]

I'm back,with more kerazy theories!!1!!1111!! ect.

This one,however is backed up with a little bit of science. (I kid ye not)

Check this.

In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris, a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science.


Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since travelling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations.

To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern(the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film. When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears.


The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose. Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole.

The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has laboured under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts. A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take apart some thing constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes.

This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something.

the above is a quote from Talbots book-The Holographic universe. (Which I will go and buy,and read very soon.)

discuss-debunk. What ever takes your fancy.

Scanned just the first part of this post but it seems to be on about quantum simultanity. Which could mean ftl communicatiion, vast bandwidth, and unbreakable paired-particle authentication. I guess.

I know this because in my science fiction i didn't write this is how the earth keeps in touch with it's many slave-worlds.

Also LeGuin touched on the concept in one of her books.

 

[xenon]

Quantem Entanglement doesn't imply FTL travel. Einstein postulated hidden variables effecting the particles. But this has long since been dismissed. Far as I can tell the physisists explaination for this strange phenomena is just. Well, the quantem world's wierd, it's just how it is.

 

[camouflage]

Quantem Entanglement doesn't imply FTL travel. Einstein postulated hidden variables effecting the particles. But this has long since been dismissed. Far as I can tell the physisists explaination for this strange phenomena is just. Well, the quantem world's wierd, it's just how it is.

Are you reffering to my post? Because I didn't mention ftl travel. Unless communication is travel.... which I suppose it is, travel of information... but really this entanglement stuff isn't about anything going from point A to point B (as in information travelling), rather it's point A and point B being the same, so that basically this would be... communication with absolutely no travel involved, but across any amount of distance.

 

[bluestreak]

Terrence Mckenna is big into this which makes me worry about it as a theory. Its discussed in the invisable landscape, which I'm currently reading but it's leaving me a bit underwelmed.

I wouldn't worry about it, he's bound to have missed the point completely.

 

[xenon]

Are you reffering to my post? Because I didn't mention ftl travel. Unless communication is travel.... which I suppose it is, travel of information... but really this entanglement stuff isn't about anything going from point A to point B (as in information travelling), rather it's point A and point B being the same, so that basically this would be... communication with absolutely no travel involved, but across any amount of distance.

Sort of making a general point. But yeah, the theoretical communication potential stuff is exciting. Alice and Bob and all that.

 

[MadDruminFerret]

That's interesting, I've read in a couple different places that this is also the same way our brains remember memories and fill in blanks. If part of the brain is damaged, another cortex of the brain will fill in for that parts process, even if only a fraction of the information is obtainable to do so. Not only that, but it will take information that is spread throughout the brain to paint the entire picture. Interesting phenomenon.

The book describes tests done on salamanders.. however much of their brains were removed, all memories remained; only hazier in proportion to the amount of brain removed. Heres a link about that in this context...

http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/shufflebrain.html

Are you reffering to my post? Because I didn't mention ftl travel. Unless communication is travel.... which I suppose it is, travel of information... but really this entanglement stuff isn't about anything going from point A to point B (as in information travelling), rather it's point A and point B being the same, so that basically this would be... communication with absolutely no travel involved, but across any amount of distance.

The metaphor Talbot uses is that of a fish in a fishtank... imagine two cameras pointing at this same fish from different angles. If you look at the output on two seperate screens you could assume that youre looking at two different fish.. but since the two move and act in unison you would quickly realise they are one and the same. What holo theory claims is that ALL things are this way, and thus every part of existence reacts instantly to every other part. As ive said though.. at the moment all of this is at a level we cannot perceive and thus cannot be described in detail/at all. (very bad science, if it can even be called that)

 

[camouflage]

The book describes tests done on salamanders.. however much of their brains were removed, all memories remained; only hazier in proportion to the amount of brain removed. Heres a link about that in this context...

http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/shufflebrain.html



The metaphor Talbot uses is that of a fish in a fishtank... imagine two cameras pointing at this same fish from different angles. If you look at the output on two seperate screens you could assume that youre looking at two different fish.. but since the two move and act in unison you would quickly realise they are one and the same. What holo theory claims is that ALL things are this way, and thus every part of existence reacts instantly to every other part. As ive said though.. at the moment all of this is at a level we cannot perceive and thus cannot be described in detail/at all. (very bad science, if it can even be called that)

Like a magnetic field, how does the field communicte across it's entire surfaces so that everything within it (bit's of iron for instance) 'knows' which way's north? This process is faster than light apparently.

 

[MadDruminFerret]

? I dont think i follow you... magnetism travels at light speed doesnt it?

 

[camouflage]

? I dont think i follow you... magnetism travels at light speed doesnt it?

I've been assured nope.

 

[MadDruminFerret]

Short answer.. i dunno. It'd help if i had the book on me but im not at home. If magnetism is instantaneous thats news to me... and good news for holo theory id assume.

I should make clear that it doesnt go into too much depth on the physics.. as ive said its almost impossible to test experimentaly. Its strength is that it provides a framework which can support a HUGE range of phenomena, from dreams to quantum entanglement to the super psychic children mentioned earlier. Like crispy said though.. its no good putting it all in a locked box labelled 'answer'. This is why Talbot trys to encourage other scientists to rely less on material phenomena and test the theory subjectively through hypnosis, meditiation, dreams and so on.

 

[camouflage]

Short answer.. i dunno. It'd help if i had the book on me but im not at home. If magnetism is instantaneous thats news to me... and good news for holo theory id assume.

I should make clear that it doesnt go into too much depth on the physics.. as ive said its almost impossible to test experimentaly. Its strength is that it provides a framework which can support a HUGE range of phenomena, from dreams to quantum entanglement to the super psychic children mentioned earlier. Like crispy said though.. its no good putting it all in a locked box labelled 'answer'. This is why Talbot trys to encourage other scientists to rely less on material phenomena and test the theory subjectively through hypnosis, meditiation, dreams and so on.

It is some good having black boxes labelled 'answer' actually, you don't have to understand 'it' to use 'it', but it helps.

Especialy when you consider various health an safety implications.

 

[MadDruminFerret]

Thats very in line with Talbots opinion... we can't make anymore headway towards explaining these phenomena through conventional physical experimentation, and most scientists instantly dismiss the kind of evidence he puts forward because its not scientific, even though there is a massive amount of it. We are already making use of these strange 'mind over matter' aspects of reality: placebos, faith healing, knowledge taken from the kind of visionary experiences had by shamans through meditation and plant medicines such as ayahuasca (sp.). These things cannot be explained scientifically but the book stresses that they DO work, and like i said, draws on a massive number of case studies to make this point.

 

[kyser_soze]

Anyone here read 'Debateable Space'? One of the central sci-fi techs is instantaneous communication using precisely the kind of entanglements being talked about on this thread.

I also remember reading somewhere about an FTL communication system (might have been Hamilton) that already had all the messages it was ever going to broadcast in it, just needing the correct amount of time to elapse before sending one...no, I don't know how it worked either, but then even thinking about time dilation coming up to c occassionally messes with my head, let alone what happens at c+1m/s

 

[DotCommunist]

Anyone here read 'Debateable Space'? One of the central sci-fi techs is instantaneous communication using precisely the kind of entanglements being talked about on this thread.

I also remember reading somewhere about an FTL communication system (might have been Hamilton) that already had all the messages it was ever going to broadcast in it, just needing the correct amount of time to elapse before sending one...no, I don't know how it worked either, but then even thinking about time dilation coming up to c occassionally messes with my head, let alone what happens at c+1m/s

wasn't it the Grubs in Alistair Reynolds books that had that?

 

[Demosthenes]

The question is very hard to answer because we do not know enough about the brain yet. Also, studying the thing you're studying with is always fraught with danger. Invoking deeper realities of the universe, however, is a cheap and easy way out. If you can put it all down to mystical untestable doodads, then you haven't really solved the problem, you've just locked it in a box with 'answer' written on the outside, and thrown away the key.

Still wiser than pretending there aren't any deeper realities of the universe.

 

[Demosthenes]

Ive just read Talbots book for the second time.. and can confirm it is very insightful but also completely bonkers. His idea of a holographic reality boils down to the 'its all in the MIND' idea most people attribute to buddhism.. essentially that enough people beleiving in something can make it so (Peter Pan springs to mind). Talbot claims that this explains the sharp increase in UFO sightings over recent decades... He also admits he has had all sorts of paranormal experiences and synchronisities in his life; which he claims are due to his involvment with this subject/s.

It IS a very neat idea, in that it explains all sorts of phenomena inc. unsolved mysteries of quantum mechs, out-of-body and near death experiences, alot of Jungian stuff like the collective unconcious and sychronicities, miracle healings, the placebo effect... and he does amass A LOT of evidence in favour of his ideas. He makes a very good case about all the very pronounced similarities between people accounts of near-death experiences, claiming that they are infact travelling to another dimension where space and time cease to exist... Like i said, its all rather bonkers, and as people have pointed out, none of it has been proven in the least. The problem here is that very little of it CAN be proven because its mostly subjective (in passing, he mentions that the big bang, which most scientists accept as fact, has never been proved either). The book ends with a callout to all scientists to basically relax their grip on objectivity and embrace a new, more participatory science.. though i imagine most scientists would find this idea downright offensive. In the last chapters he explains why he thinks many scientists may harbour paranormal beleifs, but will never admit this in fear of losing face. He claims 58% of 300 or so phychiatrists he questioned anonamously agreed that psychic phenonema should be taught to all graduates.

Frankly, in a world where the terminator can get into politics... i dont know what to beleive anymore.

and sorry for all the typos, its late

a beautifully ambiguous post.

 

[Demosthenes]

Just to make it clear, the fact that subatomic particles appear to be able to communicate instantaneously by no means suggests that anything with mass would be able to travel faster than light.

how much mass does a thought have, do you reckon?

 

[MadDruminFerret]

a beautifully ambiguous post.

..a lot like the book

 

[kyser_soze]

Thats very in line with Talbots opinion... we can't make anymore headway towards explaining these phenomena through conventional physical experimentation, and most scientists instantly dismiss the kind of evidence he puts forward because its not scientific, even though there is a massive amount of it. We are already making use of these strange 'mind over matter' aspects of reality: placebos, faith healing, knowledge taken from the kind of visionary experiences had by shamans through meditation and plant medicines such as ayahuasca (sp.). These things cannot be explained scientifically but the book stresses that they DO work, and like i said, draws on a massive number of case studies to make this point.

None of which can be actually tested, verified or most importantly, repeated with any kind of reliability in any kind of situation. If something exists and works on humans, it exists and works through the material universe we inhabit - even if it's origin is some teeny-tiny ultra folded dimension or similar, it has a material effect on a material object, and therefore it's testable.

wasn't it the Grubs in Alistair Reynolds books that had that?

Possibly, will have to check. I thought it was the Raiel. Will have to check...

BTW, you should read Debateable Space - has some of the best weapons EVER in sci-fi