Pubs in Herne Hill - a moan

[corporate whore]

Some quality rants here.

I was saddened, but not surprised, to learn the Moon is going for the luncheon buck. It is a shame, especially just as it looked it be recovering from a period of serious neglect, and a risk, given I can't see any of there current regulars stopping in for a margherita. Reckon in this case it's also got something to do with the imminent smoking ban, plus the cost of showing the footy (think it's nearer £800 a month, or 400 pints) plus an envious look at the standing room only Commercial.

I can't imagine ever going in the Moon for a pizza, so it looks like seven years of sporadic boozing in there is all up. Had some good times.

The comparisons with East Dulwich are apt, but at least there's one or two pubs down there that are still bearable. However The Bishop's a miserable soullless shithole that's gonna make you pine for Ganley's and its comedy Oirishness.

 

[tarannau]

Tarannau, I'm quite pleased you've posted on here because I think you probably understand the trade better than most.

In your opinion, how compelling is the economics behind these changes? It seems to me that with somewhere like the Commercial, which was pretty quiet before, it obviosuly makes sense for the owners to change it as they have. But it seems to me that the other pubs, especially the ones going upmarket more recently, are putting in a lot of investment into chasing an increasingly small part of the same market. When they are pubs that appear to me to be doing well is it a sensible approach in your opinion?

TBH, the economics of serving food make it a good option - gross profit on food is typically over 70%, way over what you could hope to achieve on the wet trade. Start selling wine by the bottle and you can boost profit more.

There is a difficulty, of course, of working how much pub floorspace you dedicate to serving food. It's space-consuming, requires a change in staffing priorities and often in the atmosphere and clientele of a pub. What happens when you've a big sporting event at meal times for example?

And there's the rub for me - there are plenty of restaurants and cafes around, plenty of sites suitable for development. I want the majority of pubs to remain pubs, not some hotch-potch mix of pub and restaurant. Pubs to me should be sociable meeting places, where you can meet and mix with other locals, generate a bit of much needed community spirit and generally unwind. That's not best achieved, imo, by making chunks of pubs off limits to non-diners, raising prices and insiting on bookings for certain times, followed by siphoning off folks to tables with their existing friends. It just makes everything a little more insular, cut off and monotone.

It's a fucking shit state of affairs to be honest. Bring back pubs, of people drinking and being merry together, not eating their effete towers of garnish in near silence.

 

[corporate whore]

effete towers of garnish

 

[ska invita]

seconded

 

[top_biller]

I guess at the end of the day I feel that whilst the PR has gone a bit upmarket it still seems miles away from some of the horrendous places i've visited in Clapham....

I agree, I live opposite and whilst it's light years away from how it used to be, I don't think they've totally fucked it up. They do a pretty good selection of ales, which are always well kept, the bar manager is down to earth, not snotty at all and always engages in a bit of friendly banter, the music selection is usually pretty good, nothing too mainstream or obvious, and as has been said, they still do the books/quiz etc.

Times change, places change, I can see why the PR changed and I quite like it TBH. Although I do tend to avoid it at weekends when it does get a bit full on.

I'm very sad to see Ganleys go, for the football and some decent cheap food, it couldn't be beaten. As has been said, it filled a pretty vital and unadressed role as a sports/irish bar, another PR int its place isn't going to do much for me. It's all about the variety.

 

[hendo]

Can't quite believe Ganleys, which is wedded to TV sport and has a big clientele as a result, is going to drop it completely. Seems madness to go after the Commercial and the Prince Regent which seem very well established in their niche now.

 

[tarannau]

It's not the same manager though. As far as I understand it, the owners of that Chessy Chain (bishop in Dulwich etc) offered the owner of Ganleys a generous sum and he accepted it.

Sadly, once ponicifed, pubs are very likely to switch back to their old drinking roots. You've killed off the regular trade for a start. And there's not much branding or expansion potential in a old school boozer.

 

[Mr Retro]

Agree with tarannau.

We went up to Ganleys to watch the Irish Grand National last Monday week only to discover it was closed. There was a small collection of racing fans that used to go to Ganleys and they were well catered for with "At the Races" and "Racing UK" always on one tv.

It's things like that that are lost forever when a local is poncified.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

gutted about the Half Moon. I've played pool in there for about 10 years..spent most of my student grant in there and pulled a few times too! rarely seen any aggro around the pool table. I always thought it had underused potential - not to be a place of ponce, but knock the two bars together, do a bit of decent pub grub and real ales, get a second screen and make more use of the back room and late licence. Half Moon was great to watch the footy on a friday night since the Hob won't show the Friday night games. The no footy in Herne Hill thing is gonna be a problem though....maybe the slightly ailing Hob might benefit?

 

[kyser_soze]

Nice to see the usual nasty insults directed at anyone who dares to make more than a pittance and the pubs who recognise that they can make more money, and therefore stay in business, by selling food to them.

Fucks sake, if it means THAT much to you all club together, find a venue and get yourselves a licence so you can create the boozer of your dreams...

 

[tarannau]

Which nasty insults KS?

Beisdes, that's a hugely oversimplistic take on events. Neither the Half Moon or Ganleys were unprofitable as I understand it - in fact Ganleys was doing pretty well by all accounts.

It's perfectly possible to make a decent profit and not a pittance running a pub. However, it's almost certainly easier to make more of a profit by upgrading food, increasing margins and targeting a more wealthy demographic in certain areas, particularly when your opening hours and security requirements are likely to be less onerous. That neglects the social and neighbourhood role that public houses have traditionally played, favouring a far less inclusive swathe of locals. That's a shame to me, especially when the area's already well served by restaurants, cafes and takeaways.

Equally, as you'll know, it's far easier to 'sell in' a branded concept that links a specific dining and drinking approach. It's difficult to get investment for an old style boozer without that hook.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Nice to see the usual nasty insults directed at anyone who dares to make more than a pittance and the pubs who recognise that they can make more money, and therefore stay in business, by selling food to them.

Fucks sake, if it means THAT much to you all club together, find a venue and get yourselves a licence so you can create the boozer of your dreams...

You can do better than that rubbish, surely.

Tarranau has already answered it better than I can. But that's a weak assessment of what's been put forward on this thread and you should be able to see that.

 

[kyser_soze]

What, with the constant snide references to 'poicification' and 'Dulwich types'? I'm pretty much in agreement with what Tarannau said - but then he didn't start banging about 'ponciness' either, just made some relevant points about the economics of the areas changing. Hell, if you want a place to watch the football that is all local atmosphere, you can drink in the White Hart by Tulse Hill station - shit hole pub with plaster work flaking off it and some real, proper 'locals'. Maybe the Tulse Hill Hotel - they have sports on and again, it's equally authentic and local.

I love this place for threads like this tho - areas change, pubs change with them.

 

[kyser_soze]

Which nasty insults KS?

bluestreak: that sucks. i agree whole-heartedly, pubs should cater to everyone and these horrid swanky places for overpaid braying idiots get on my tits....

niksativa: Its all about property prices of course - Dulwich has gone insane so there is more and more overspill, with even my corner of forest hill begining to get some glow off of the Dulwich money-piles.

Herne Hill is just far too close to Dulwich for its own good, and will soon be swallowed up completely! Get out while you still can!

Slow Hands: A bit of a gamble for the Half Moon though, to look out of the window and see all the Dulwich-types walking past

MO: Slow Hands - from what I have heard the football decision is entirely based upon the 'type' of person they want to get in. Apparently they don't want anyone coming from the Irish pub now it's being done up again.

Fingers: I really can't understand why they are poncing Ganley's up. That

MO: Er, it's totally different. Wanky is subjective - although I personally think it's about as wanky as you could get - but I can't see how you can say it hasn't changed a lot.

MO: I've been in once since it was done up and it was full of twats. That might not be representative I admit. I'm not tempted to go back though.

That neglects the social and neighbourhood role that public houses have traditionally played, favouring a far less inclusive swathe of locals.

TBH the last time I went in the Regent I noticed no difference in the crowd from before it was refurbished - a mixture of people from the estate next door and the posher houses to the right of the pub, so I don't honestly see how that can be favouring one chunk of locals over another.

But my argument still stands - you don't like what's happening to local pubs then apply for a licence and start running one.

 

[tarannau]

I love this place for threads like this tho - areas change, pubs change with them.

Again that's oversimplistic. Areas do change, but the estates that surround the Regent (and to a lesser extent the Commercial) clearly haven't changed that much. Money, in this case, talks far more quickly than the neighbourhood and a less profitable demographic can.

One of the main reasons that so many old school boozers look so run down an is that their breweries/owners won't offer any cash unless they are rebranded and repositioned, taken into a smaller branded portfolio of venues . Most licencees won't be able to make real improvements unless they've got cash to spare and security on their lease - most don't have that luxury, so wealthy pub 'entrepreneurs' versed in a certain type of short term approach do well.

 

[kyser_soze]

Well it strikes me that just on urban alone there must be enough concern and interest to start looking at the idea of opening cooperative based freehouses cos it's obviously an issue that many in Lambeth feel strongly about.

And I made the point about the people in the Regent - last time I went there after the refurb the place was still full of tracksuits, Reeboks and women wearing gold hooped earrings, which was pretty much the same as before it was refurbed...maybe THEY were the ones making Spangles feel uncomfortable?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

MO: Slow Hands - from what I have heard the football decision is entirely based upon the 'type' of person they want to get in. Apparently they don't want anyone coming from the Irish pub now it's being done up again.

That's a quote from the owners of the pub, albeit heard second hand. That's not me being insulting to anyone, it's the market they themselves think they're going for

MO: Er, it's totally different. Wanky is subjective - although I personally think it's about as wanky as you could get - but I can't see how you can say it hasn't changed a lot.

MO: I've been in once since it was done up and it was full of twats. That might not be representative I admit. I'm not tempted to go back though.

It was full of twats. I got pushed out of the way twice trying to get to the bar. That was an aside really and not the point though.

But my argument still stands - you don't like what's happening to local pubs then apply for a licence and start running one.

I don't seriously believe you think that's a worthwhile argument. Who here has the money to start their own pub, or the time to dedicate to it. Just because you don't want to make a career out of something hardly means you can't comment on it. I know you're smarter than that though so I'm assuming you're being deliberately provocative.

.

 

[tarannau]

With respect that's unlikely Kyser - I used to be a comparative regular in the Regent (a mate worked there) and the clientele is hugely different now. It's not even close really.

In fact, there used to be a couple of table's worth of refugees that went to Ganleys. Gawd knows where they've gone now.

 

[christonabike]

You can't skin up in there anymore

And they don't like you doing it outside either

 

[kyser_soze]

I don't seriously believe you think that's a worthwhile argument. Who here has the money to start their own pub, or the time to dedicate to it. Just because you don't want to make a career out of something hardly means you can't comment on it. I know you're smarter than that though so I'm assuming you're being deliberately provocative.

Well it's clearly something that MANY peeople feel strongly about, and as I said, as all these similar threads have on them there's the underlying sneering at 'Dulwich types' moving into areas.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Well it's clearly something that MANY peeople feel strongly about, and as I said, as all these similar threads have on them there's the underlying sneering at 'Dulwich types' moving into areas.

And so we should just 'start our own pub' just like that?

Not really plausible is it?

 

[tarannau]

You can't skin up in there anymore

And they don't like you doing it outside either

I don't think you were ever meant to skin up inside c. But then again nobody gave a shite in its last days...

 

[christonabike]

When footy was on I saw three folks rolling inside once

It was very relaxed

It was perfect


I like what these pubs were, but hold no animosity for what they have become, I just go somewhere else nowdays
The Regent is little use to me now and if I was forced to offer an opinion, I'd say it is cack

 

[tarannau]

And so we should just 'start our own pub' just like that?

Not really plausible is it?

Not really unfortunately. It's either a case of become a short-term licensee on the brewery's terms, or purchasing outright. And if it's the latter, you've got to compete with folks with deeper pockets, less altruistic motives and (possibly) already benefiting from economies of scale.

It's possible, but you'd be fighting with one arm tied behind your back.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Not really unfortunately. It's either a case of become a short-term licensee on the brewery's terms, or purchasing outright. And if it's the latter, you've got to compete with folks with deeper pockets, less altruistic motives and (possibly) already benefiting from economies of scale.

It's possible, but you'd be fighting with one arm tied behind your back.

I had a temp job at a bank once that involved filling in bankruptcy claim forms, amongst other things.

Quite a large percentage of them related to people who'd tried to start their own pub or restaurant.

 

[hipipol]

Return on Capital and Opportunity Cost

The cash I can generate turning old pubs into flats is substantial, so in order to prevent this every pub now has to work flat out at getting cashflow(Whetherspoons model) or high value added (gastro pub stylee) - either way its puts a hell of a sqeeze on the concept of a "local"
The "Dulwich overflow" stresses the HH situation not because of flocks of Hooraays desperate to spend their money locally - last thing on their agenda with the joys of Northcote Road for the breeders and Cla'm for those not quite there - but because the opportunity available for conversion to flats - my what an excellent "period features" opportunity the Half Moon offers!!!!

PS Herne Hill has always been part of Dulwich, at least if all the illustrations of Brockwell House and the Cross Roads are anything to by (Both Southwark and Lambeth have a fair bit of stuff online from around the dstart of the 1800s)

 

[spanglechick]

And I made the point about the people in the Regent - last time I went there after the refurb the place was still full of tracksuits, Reeboks and women wearing gold hooped earrings, which was pretty much the same as before it was refurbed...maybe THEY were the ones making Spangles feel uncomfortable?

hon, i grew up in Bexleyheath - and as shells'll confirm, that's elizabeth duke earings and sports-leisure wear central. That IS my natural habitat. It hardly makes me uncomfortable.

No - what made me upset in the PR was a few women who looked at me like shit because i happened to be standing in their way, or got into the ladies' before them. it wasn't a class thing - it was a "you're not a regular so you can fuck off" sort of attitude. if i had to guess, i'd say they looked like teacher types, actually.

 

[LDR]

Pubs to me should be sociable meeting places, where you can meet and mix with other locals, generate a bit of much needed community spirit and generally unwind. That's not best achieved, imo, by making chunks of pubs off limits to non-diners, raising prices and insisting on bookings for certain times, followed by siphoning off folks to tables with their existing friends. It just makes everything a little more insular, cut off and monotone.

You've articulated better than I ever could why I prefer pubs over restaurants.

 

[rennie]

for what it's worth, I think the Regent is alright if a tad bit expensive.

 

[Giles]

If a good few people got together and actually went out and bought a pub, then you could make money, I think. It has always appeared to me that owning the place outright is the way to win - these extortionate pubco leases etc seem a total rip-off.

Problem is the high property prices generally mean that freeholds are somewhat expensive. But if a big group got together, including at least a few who knew what they were about, it shouldn't be impossible.

Giles..