Public Sector vs Private Sector

[Prince Rhyus]

That's true, but it should be remembered that the seemingly unsackable, obscenely overpaid fat cats at the very top constitute a vanishingly small fraction of all private sector workers.

99.999% of those in the private sector will never get to the very top end. So it could be argued that in a private vs public sector debate, it's an issue that can effectively be discounted.

In which case the problem is in both the public and private sector with the closed shop merrigoround.

In the private sector everyone is on each others boards and unless shareholders really start unleashing some of their power, I can't see it changing. (I'm thinking the institutionalised pension funds - for example all those local authorities investing in arms companies.)
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foi/story/0,,1770216,00.html

In the public sector, the reforms within the civil service are about whether to bring in people from the private sector to work within the service - especially the role of secondees. I've got mixed opinions about it. Yes, the civil service needs root and branch reform. The crisis at the Home Office is telling us that. However, there are so many potential conflicts of interest that some firms end up walking all the way to the bank.

 

[William of Walworth]

Whether or not you liked getting "knocked down" is I'm afraid irrelevant. If you post up some dismissive stuff about the entire private sector - which does 'no good at all', then you really should support this?

What about your sneering, embittered, nasty, smallminded, distorting and caricatured dismissals of the public sector?? And your attempt to caricature public sector workers as featherbedded skivers?

I've said nothing specifically bad so far about the private sector in this thread.

But I'm fucked off with Daily Telegraph/Daily Mail style attempts to whip up resentment against us on the grounds that we have it too cushty. Classic Tory divide and rule stuff, which you're echoing.

I've never at any time denied that my own personal position (especially re leave, pension and low stress) is very fortunate. But in my particular public sector organisation, I'm in a rapidly diminishing minority, arising from my being well established and in post for a long time. Also, read my first post in this thread before assuming that every aspect of even MY position is a bed of roses ..... I try not to moan too much, but I am trapped and also, any moaning I do in this thread arises from being well pissed off about being attacked as over privileged when there are far more unjustly privileged people in society than a mid career, approaching middle age, far from luxuriously paid public sector professional like myself..

Most people in our organisation who have joined since 1996 (when 'reserved rights' ceased in general to apply) are on much less secure contracts. Favourable pension rights for those few permanent staff who are still being appointed, will be sharply reduced imminently.

I think the question should be turned on its head, and that people who argue like Hollis/the Telegraph should be pressurised to 'justify' whether and why they think that pension rights for existing, established public sector workers should be fucked around with. Ggiven that these are very shortly going to be sealed off for new joiners anyway, isn't that enough for you? Ungrateful cunts like 'Sir' Digby Jones and the Institrue of Directors NEVER acknowledge in their FT and Telegraph rants against public sector pension rights that the number of people retiring at 60 will from a very short time be fixed and will decrease not increase. And the 'Public Sector Automatically Bad' types should be pressurised to 'justify' whether and why they think that the average public sector worker's leave allowances should be reduced, and whether they think that public sector efficiency is best served by freezing permanent posts and inadequately filling the gaps with short term contract employees with no security of employment.

Justify changes like that, Hollis, changes that are already being attempted to be introduced.

If you think I'm being over defensive, just remember that the public sector has been subjected to attacks of this kind ever since 1979. Any extra money that has come in since 1997, and I accept there's been some, has been accompanied by a continuous revolution of morale sapping 'reform', private sector inspired 'efficiency' drives that in so many cases amount to increased INEFFICIENCY in practice, more interfering management and 'consultants', and constant, year on year attacks on employment rights. Mine have been retained only by mine and oither Civil Serviuce unions fighting tooth and nail to stop us being fucked around with. All this has happned against a backdrop of howls of outrage from the Mail and Telegraph and Tories and 'reform' obsessed Blairites about how inefficient, lazy and shit the public sector is.

An odiously malign agenda Hollis seems very happy to go along with and echo, with added lies and distortions and generalisations of his own..

The fact that I personally am far from the hardest worker in the world (not all the time anyway ) is 110%irrelevant to these general points, because I'm far from representative.

I apologise for yestersday's outburst, and for returning to this thread despite intending not to, not one iota

x 10,000

 

[xenon]

I work in the public sector. A less "Can Do" attitude would be hard to find. If I fucked around as much as I do here in the private sector I'd have been fired about 18 months ago.

In a way I wish they would so i could sign on and have a bit of time to study or least put maximum effort into finding another job.

 

[xenon]

But to append my last post, in light of reading the usual cliches about public sector workers being lazy, pampered and generally sheltered. I should say I know plenty of peple on my scale of employment who've fucked round far more in private companies. call centres in particular. And no I'm not working here because I'm a lazy swine and like the custdy atmosphere.

Also when peple claim how many hours they work and how hard they're working, in many of those cases they're doing bugger all. Turning up to meetins sitting around waiting for the phone to ring. That aint working. I work harder than that in my free time.

 

[xenon]

Well said William

 

[Streathamite]

Provide examples of some good private sector work then Hollis (and Zenie apparently - ) and I'll engage in debate with you.

sure;
the pubs you drink in, and the brewers who make the stuff they sell. the restaurants you eat in. the clothes shops that clothe you. the supermarkets that feed you. the firm that made the car you drive. the firms that make the drugs that cure your ailments. the publishers that pu blish the books and m,ags you read. the manufacturers and software houses that developed, wholly or partly, the technology that enables you to read what you are reading RIGHT NOW.
In short, the enterprises that provide 95% of the material fabric of your life, in the soft and pampered southern end of one of the most pampered and affluent countries on earth.
trust me on this, you would NOT like living in North Korea more.

 

[tastebud]

sure;
the pubs you drink in, and the brewers who make the stuff they sell. the restaurants you eat in. the clothes shops that clothe you. the supermarkets that feed you. the firm that made the car you drive. the firms that make the drugs that cure your ailments. the publishers that pu blish the books and m,ags you read. the manufacturers and software houses that developed, wholly or partly, the technology that enables you to read what you are reading RIGHT NOW.
In short, the enterprises that provide 95% of the material fabric of your life, in the soft and pampered southern end of one of the most pampered and affluent countries on earth.
trust me on this, you would NOT like living in North Korea more.

Err, hi Hollis. I wouldn't like any of those jobs Jezza, you're right.

*Sticks with the public sector*

Edit: I'm sure I've said twice now that initially on this thread I simply gave my personal reasons and views. I wouldn't feel particularly happy or worthwhile (or even morally sound) in any of those jobs you mention Jezza, but if others do that's fine. I want my work to *help* people and I have also spoken to like-minded people in this regard. It matters to some people, others not so much. This is all fine.

Fin

 

[Streathamite]

Not tfl. Closed shop. Jobs for the boyz.

and the ICAEW and ACCA are NOT one of the last great closed shops, spanish-practices, rotten boroughs in town?
bollocks.

 

[Streathamite]

Err, hi Hollis. I wouldn't like any of those jobs Jezza, you're right.

*Sticks with the public sector*

apols, i thought you meant stuff done by the private sector which you got usage out of.
ultimately, this debate is daft. the best job for you is the one that corresponds most closely with what you enjoy, and - obviously - are equipped to do.
for me, that puts me 100% in the private sector; I'm a communicator, motivator, entrepreneur.
for you - with your background skills etc, it puts you just as completely in the public sector.
which itself was created to underpin, and ensure the survival of the private sector.

 

[Streathamite]

Err, hi Hollis. I wouldn't like any of those jobs Jezza, you're right.

*Sticks with the public sector*

Edit: I'm sure I've said twice now that initially on this thread I simply gave my personal reasons and views. I wouldn't feel particularly happy or worthwhile (or even morally sound) in any of those jobs you mention Jezza, but if others do that's fine. I want my work to *help* people and I have also spoken to like-minded people in this regard. It matters to some people, others not so much. This is all fine.

Fin

OK: think of all the research scientists in life sciences. the vast majority of those work in the private sector. I'd say antibiotics DO help people meself.
think of crusading journalists like paul foot, john pilger, seymour hersh.
public sector? not for so much as a day.
banks don't help people? try living without them for so much as a day, and then think again.
I don't help people? candidates happy in their new jobs would dare to differ. the man who designed the car you drove - I'd bet he gets job satisfaction. he couldn'rt do that job in the state sector, outside of the PRC

 

[Streathamite]

So
Private = Capitalism
Public = Socialism

nope.
public sector = statism.

The ONLY reason why every single western european nation built a HUGE public sector infrastructure was to save capitalism, by appeasing/buying off bolshy workers.
it was NOT done out of altruism., or in the name and cause of anything remotely egalitarian. It is part of the whole mechanism and methodology of social control.

 

[tastebud]

OK: think of all the research scientists in life sciences. the vast majority of those work in the private sector. I'd say antibiotics DO help people meself.
think of crusading journalists like paul foot, john pilger, seymour hersh.
public sector? not for so much as a day.
banks don't help people? try living without them for so much as a day, and then think again.
I don't help people? candidates happy in their new jobs would dare to differ. the man who designed the car you drove - I'd bet he gets job satisfaction. he couldn'rt do that job in the state sector, outside of the PRC

Thing is you aren't going to change my view on this because I know what makes me happy and what doesn't. Okay so it might sound a bit weird considering that yes, I do eg., read John Pilger and use Natwest, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy making a living out of a profession like this. Ultimately I don't want to make money for some huge company I think. I don't really want what I do to be about money.

 

[Streathamite]

Thing is you aren't going to change my view on this because I know what makes me happy and what doesn't. Okay so it might sound a bit weird considering that yes, I do eg., read John Pilger and use Natwest, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy making a living out of a profession like this. Ultimately I don't want to make money for some huge company I think. I don't really want what I do to be about money.

bet you that the single biggest popular effect of any and every reseacrh that you do will be when some enterprising private sector outfit work out how to use it to benefit their sales, marketing or product development.

 

[tastebud]

bet you that the single biggest popular effect of any and every reseacrh that you do will be when some enterprising private sector outfit work out how to use it to benefit their sales, marketing or product development.

Doubt that day will ever happen to be honest. I'd be against it though, if I were in any position of power. It's not exactly what I get out of bed for every morning I have to say.

Not annoyed btw, but I will point out that I didn't actual reveal my job at any point on this thread - I don't think.

 

[Streathamite]

oh sghit apols, assumed it was public knowledge
umm, the point I was making is that whether you are public or private sector is ultimately incidental, you are certainly, absolutely, completely 100% part of the capitalist system. The Man owns your soul, and has shat all over it, as assuredly as he has all over mine.

 

[tastebud]

I've got to stop posting on this thread...!

umm, the point I was making is that whether you are public or private sector is ultimately incidental, you are certainly, absolutely, completely 100% part of the capitalist system. The Man owns your souil, and has shat all over it, as assuredly as he has all over mine.

Career wise I really think there are degrees though. In some jobs it's patently obvious on a day-to-day basis that you are working for capitalist scum whose soul purpose is to make as much money as they can. Then there are public sector jobs that whilst might not be completely and utterly morally sound, the services distributed are much further away from being mediated by money (and therefore greed) and whose main modus operandi is not primarily controlled by acting in its own interest (driven by greed, again).

Selfishly my chosen career interests me too and can't think of much else (apart from a few huge and wild dreams that would probably never happen) that would, to the same extent.

 

[Streathamite]

Will Walworth: 60+ days annual leave.

so let's discuss the going rate for a non-profit generating, non-product making managerial bean-counter.....

 

[Streathamite]

some big f*ck corporation, which does nothing for the good of human-kind in any way. In fact, mostly causing more damage than it does good.

I take on board your other posts on this thread, and see some validity in them (although I remain convinced you really don't have a full enough picture of life in the private sector) - but this comment is, I have to say, 100% utter, total bollocksevery minute, of every day - for reasons I have already outlined - you personally benefit from the productive output of the private sector, as does everyone else in the capitalist world. Like I said, try doing without them, and see how far you get.
Like it or not, the combined gross output of the private sector DOES do good - essential, inescapable, indispensable good.
Furthermore, when it comes to the goods and sevices traditionally the preserve of the private sector, the major attempt in history of the State to produce them instead ended in horrific, tragic and disastrous failure.
It wasn't just a win for the private sector, it was a 10-0 thrashing. and the second attempt in the capitalist era for the State to usurp that role - China - is ending as we speak, with every new day bri nging another word, another snentence in the State's statement of surrender.
This of course, coinciding with the gretatest period of growth in the chinese economy in recorded history!

 

[Streathamite]

finally

an interesting verdict on capitalism;

Capital is money, capital is commodities. By virtue of it being value, it has acquired the occult ability to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays golden eggs.

- The writer is of course Karl Marx.

 

[baldrick]

I want my work to *help* people and I have also spoken to like-minded people in this regard. It matters to some people, others not so much. This is all fine.

ALL work helps people in some regard. i find this distinction rather superior, tbh. You think a lorry driver's job doesn't help anyone? If they stopped working tomorrow it wouldn't matter, obviously

I wouldn't want to work for a bank either, but it's not a moral choice as you seem to be suggesting.

anyway, looks like RJ has already covered this...

 

[kyser_soze]

Welll...I'm temping in the public sector @ the moment (or would be - Lifeline are being fucking useless at the moment so anyone who knows of any effective public sector agencies PM me...) and will echo most of the sentiments on this thread - where I've been working it's more relaxed and less 'driven' (altho there are still driven deadlines, but more on that in a bit), much more consensus based etc and a really lovely environment to work in (even for a temp) and a breeze after spending my whole life up til now in the private sector...

However...

It can and does get very frustrating when you can't move things on in meetings (and boy, are there a lot of meetings!), and while all the managers I've worked with so far have been great, sometimes you need an element of bastardness in order to get people up to scratch - for example, my last role: great manager, tight deadline to meet to research, produce and publish a large report that would be the basis of budget reccs for the next 2 years...I started on the team when it was already 2 months late, and at my first meeting one of the guys collecting data basically said that he still had half his work to do and had lost 2 of his already completed reports. The response was considered, fair and not remotely what you'd expect in the private sector...and when I left last week it was still not done!

Anyhoo...I'm looking for work, any takers?

 

[tastebud]

Welll...I'm temping in the public sector @ the moment (or would be - Lifeline are being fucking useless at the moment so anyone who knows of any effective public sector agencies PM me...) and will echo most of the sentiments on this thread - where I've been working it's more relaxed and less 'driven' (altho there are still driven deadlines, but more on that in a bit), much more consensus based etc and a really lovely environment to work in (even for a temp) and a breeze after spending my whole life up til now in the private sector...

However...

It can and does get very frustrating when you can't move things on in meetings (and boy, are there a lot of meetings!), and while all the managers I've worked with so far have been great, sometimes you need an element of bastardness in order to get people up to scratch - for example, my last role: great manager, tight deadline to meet to research, produce and publish a large report that would be the basis of budget reccs for the next 2 years...I started on the team when it was already 2 months late, and at my first meeting one of the guys collecting data basically said that he still had half his work to do and had lost 2 of his already completed reports. The response was considered, fair and not remotely what you'd expect in the private sector...and when I left last week it was still not done!

Anyhoo...I'm looking for work, any takers?

Yeah Lifelife were bloody awful IME. I didn't even bother registering in the end as they were pretty rude and extremely unhelpful. You could try Prospect-us. They're absolutely lovely, I can't sing their praises enough, but unfortunately rarely have any work - they're very small. The other one I found pretty good - they had work straight away; mostly hospital-based - even a management postion for me! - was Fairstaff on Oxford Street. I think it's mostly hospital stuff but they seemed to have a fair amount of work. I started a thread on temp. agencies a little while back so you could refer to that.
----
As for the comments by Red Jezza and Baldrick - fuck the fuck off. Get out of my face. I simply wrote why I myself personally had chosen the public sector.. my own personal views; which I'm entitled to given that it's my own career I'm talking about. If anything, you two are the ones getting superior (especially I knoweverything,youcouldn'tpossiblyknowwhatyou'reonabout,Jezza)... once again, get outta my face! I'm not even gonna bother replying to any more of this shit btw - just wanted to give Kyser those names.

 

[kyser_soze]

Cheers Vix

 

[Streathamite]

As for the comments by Red Jezza and Baldrick - fuck the fuck off. Get out of my face. I simply wrote why I myself personally had chosen the public sector.. my own personal views; which I'm entitled to given that it's my own career I'm talking about. If anything, you two are the ones getting superior (especially I knoweverything,youcouldn'tpossiblyknowwhatyou'reonabout,Jezza)... once again, get outta my face! I'm not even gonna bother replying to any more of this shit btw - just wanted to give Kyser those names.

i'm sorry, but that's a tad daft. All I have done is pulled you up on;

some big f*ck corporation, which does nothing for the good of human-kind in any way. In fact, mostly causing more damage than it does good.

Because those are, after all, your words, and they are manifestly wrong.
If you really believe that, refute it properly. show why what you've said there is right. Prove that large private companies do no good.
I have not for one minute disputed that you should work in the sector you feel happiest. Everyone should.
But to paint it as you have done, in tones of such studentesque black-white simplicity, is as bad as hollis has done, from the other end.
As an ineluctable fact; you could not survive for so much as one single day without the aggregate output of the private sector.
Sad, but true.
And a private sector pharmacologist who develops a drug that (say) cures cancer can generally be assumed to "help people".
As can the private sector clothes designer who designed every single item of clothing you are wearing right now.

 

[tastebud]

I think my main point might be, why pull me up on the complete and utter preciseness of this:

some big f*ck corporation, which does nothing for the good of human-kind in any way. In fact, mostly causing more damage than it does good.

- Surely you can see what my basic point was all those pages ago. Surely you can see that I was referring to companies that are only in it for the money and in turn treat their staff like shit?

I like your use of the term "studentesque" by the way. Just confirms my suspicions - cheers for that.

You stick with your private sector job, Jezza, just don't go getting defensive about it.

 

[foo]

i can't see why vixen's posts are getting so much flak tbh. i too have always wanted to work with people, in a helpful/social sense. i can't see myself ever working in any other environment.

i do realise though that when saying this, i leave myself wide open for people to lazily label me 'worthy' etc.

so go for it.

like vixen hopefully, i don't give a flying fuck.

 

[tastebud]

i can't see why vixen's posts are getting so much flak tbh

Because I'm only going on 26 and used to be a student I think.

Cheers btw Foo.
----
Edit to add: I hate so much of the world we live in and this probably rather informs my view about this. I wish we could all go back to being hunter-gatherers to be honest.

 

[Streathamite]

I think my main point might be, why pull me up on the complete and utter preciseness of this: - Surely you can see what my basic point was all those pages ago. Surely you can see that I was referring to companies that are only in it for the money and in turn treat their staff like shit?

err...no I can't, because every company above a certain size is 'only in it for the money'.
That's capitalism, encapsulated.
as is how well or badly they treat their staff - that is purely a byfunction of two things;
1) labour market demand and supply as pertaining to the company in question
and
2) PR.
Nothing else.
Ever.
what I oject to is the insinuation that no private sector work is worthwhile or has positive value, which is more or less what you've said. Your world got built by the private sector, and you personally draw immense value from it, every single day.

 

[baldrick]

vixen - no, i won't fuck off.

it's a BB - where people discuss their views. you presented your view, i disagreed and told you why. yeah, maybe my language was a bit unfair, but i thought you were lazily stereotyping private sector work - and you've said nothing since that convinces me otherwise.

plenty of public sector organisations treat their staff like shit - it's not a trait that purely belongs to private companies. if you want to do work that you can only find in the NGO/public sector for personal reasons, nobody has a problem with that here, but i do have a problem with the suggestion that people who work in the private sector because their skills and personality are better suited to it, are doing work of no, or little societal worth.

 

[tastebud]

vixen - no, i won't fuck off.

it's a BB - where people discuss their views. you presented your view, i disagreed and told you why. yeah, maybe my language was a bit unfair, but i thought you were lazily stereotyping private sector work - and you've said nothing since that convinces me otherwise.

plenty of public sector organisations treat their staff like shit - it's not a trait that purely belongs to private companies. if you want to do work that you can only find in the NGO/public sector for personal reasons, nobody has a problem with that here, but i do have a problem with the suggestion that people who work in the private sector because their skills and personality are better suited to it, are doing work of no, or little societal worth.

I didn't really say that. Don't listen to Jezza. Originally I just stated my motivations for going into what I went into. In actual fact I couldn't really do what I do privately because it doesn't actually exist. When criticising private companies I might have gone to the extreme a bit admittedly, but surely you can see what I was getting at, or at least which type of companies I had in mind.

I got annoyed by the patronising tone, by the way - which I suspected was for other reasons rather than just my posts alone. Jezza confirmed some of my suspicions in an equally patronising tone, but no matter...

Like Foo suggested, I don't really give a f*ck. All I was ever doing was citing the reasons for my chosen career path and more particularly, when temping, why I'd chosen the public sector**. Private sector workers that get so outraged by my assertions seem to be suffering from some kind of guilt complex* in my view.

By the way, I do already know the function of a bulletin board.

*tongue-in-cheek

**What we have to remember here is that the private/ public distinction is the one that we have to work with. I made my decision about what I wanted to do and why, and then when temping I had to make the decision in terms of what type of temp work I'd like to do. The caring and charity type stuff falls under the public umbrella so this is obviously what I went with. Doesn't mean that there aren't some worthwhile private jobs I guess, though I think how you and I define worthwhile might differ somewhat.