Public schools fined for price-fixing

[pogofish]

Well, not really, no: they don't go out of their way to turn people away. They select because they haven't got infinite room, especially if they want to offer small class sizes and heavy access to facilities.

But if more people wanted it at the prices which are on offer, there would be more such schools. And if a large proportion of our 6% were from low-income backgrounds then it would mean a large number of high-income families were unable to get their kids into fee-paying schools. Which isn't true, is it?

About the only overt selectivity the private schools I had dealings with applied was the ability to get good exam results, so they only looked at a small proportion of kids to start with. Usually selected by exam, with a 90% pass-mark. - Only after that did the issue of payment become a major issue. They also had a vested interest in keeping the numbers small as there was major competition for places. IIRC for one school it was @10 applicants (ie from those who passed the school's pre-intake exam, not the general school pop) for each place awarded. Children of former pupils did however get priority so that aspect was certainly self-perpetuating. However they were also more likley to be in the system from day one at a connected private infant school in the first place. Most new-intake kids from state schools came in in the two years before secondary started.

When it came to kids who were struggling academically or who desplayed social/behavioural problems. IMe, they were bloody-quick to get shot of them. On to my unit in particular & to certain state schools who were seen as "good" & the next best thing to a private school. I had two of these in my group. Anecdotally, I'd also suggest that the favoured kids of former pupils had do a lot more or be truly thick to get the boot. Virtually all the kids I saw returned to state schooling were from families who had no prior PS history.

The private sector has gone through a lot of expansion in the last decade or so IIRC & all the schools I used to deal with have at least doubled their rolls & made extensive use of "teachers" whose qualifications would be unnacceptable in the state sector. Also, plenty do well from offering educational services that are underprovided by the state sector - Learning difficulties & disabilities in particular. Eduction authorities have always had the discretion to provide funding here, rather than develop facilities themselves.So yes, there is growth - especially in the middle to low-cost end of the sector.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

purchased, expensive,desireable and important= 6% of parents motivated enough to pay for it
not 6% of the moneyed elite which is what you are trying to suggest..
Im sure there are enough rich people who send their childen to state schools too you know

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Your 6%coukld be 6% of people entitled to free school emals, your 6% could be people with an income of less than 50K per annum

For the reason explained above, this is extremely unlikely. The ownership of expensive goods is not randomly distributed across income groups, is it?

If you can't follow that, there's not much else I can do.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

purchased, expensive,desireable and important= 6% of parents motivated enough to pay for it
not 6% of the moneyed elite which is what you are trying to suggest..

Sorry, and the moneyed elite aren't motivated to pay for expensive but important items? Which they would find far easier to pay for than would Mr and Mrs Bloggs?

Do argue that case if you want to.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

again its individual choice, I went to a state school and was friends with the daughter of a consultant opthalmic surgeon who was in a state school.Lived in a massive house on an exclusive estate, swimming pool etc etc etc he had enough to send them all private
*shrugs* its what people believe is important, he may have had good reasons for believing all his children would do well in state schools, which they did ( in the 2nd choice state in the area too)

Im following yoour argument perfectly well Donna, you may not like me pointing out its full of holes but there we are, not alot I can do about your complete lack of the ability to see a wider picture and more variables than "people with mases of dosh send their kids private and people with not alot of dosh wouldnt ever do that because it was hard for them"

 

[Donna Ferentes]

To be honest, there's not a lot I can do if you can't follow the argument that extremely expensive items tend to be disproportioately owned by extremely well-off people. It's not something that can be addressed by the claim "I know poorer people who send their kids to public schools". Indivdual case histories mean nothing: numbers are what matter here. In the absence of any numbers demonstrating the opposite I will continue to find it hard to see how working people could outspend rich people in competition for what they both desire: and if the explanation is that somehow wealthy people don't value expensive education, I shall be obliged to laugh.

(Incidentally, if we are to employ personal experience as a means of forming out judgements - I know, really, a very large number of people who went to public schools, as tends to happen if one goes to Oxford. Of these, I would say two people came from anything resembling a working-class background. One was the aforementioned butcher's son - the other the daughter of an Essex engineer. Common sense, and economics, would suggest that the picture formed by this experience is not an inaccurate one. But to me, it's not what's most valid. What's valid is the numbers.)

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Id be very interested to know the numbers who move to the catchments of better state schools who would otherwise send their children to private schools.
Similar costs only the house move is an investment which is likely to hold its value as well as gaining a good education for the child ( equal to private schools often)

skews your rich= private a bit further.
And really I couldnt give a shit whether you went to oxford or not. Not every child who goes to an independent school can go to Oxford either can they? nor is it guaranteed that you will get into oxford having attended the 'right' school. Oxford clearly didnt do you much good did it?

Personally i believe universities shouldnt be entitled to know which schools applicants come from- it would make the admissions system far fairer

 

[_angel_]

What's the difference between a private and public school?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And really I couldnt give a shit whether you went to oxford or not. Not every child who goes to an independent school can go to Oxford either can they? nor is it guaranteed that you will get into oxford having attended the 'right' school. Oxford clearly didnt do you much good did it?

I have absolutely no idea what any of this is supposed to relate to. It seems to be generated randomly.

 

[_angel_]

Id be very interested to know the numbers who move to the catchments of better state schools who would otherwise send their children to private schools.
Similar costs only the house move is an investment which is likely to hold its value as well as gaining a good education for the child ( equal to private schools often)

skews your rich= private a bit further.
And really I couldnt give a shit whether you went to oxford or not. Not every child who goes to an independent school can go to Oxford either can they? nor is it guaranteed that you will get into oxford having attended the 'right' school. Oxford clearly didnt do you much good did it?

Personally i believe universities shouldnt be entitled to know which schools applicants come from- it would make the admissions system far fairer

You've far more chance of getting oxbridge from a private school background, definitely. This is because Oxford university are outright snobs who want students with the best exam results, not necessarily 'the raw ability'. Some professor was actually quoted as saying 'raw ability isn't enough' ffs.

Have lived in Oxford for three years and the majority of students walking around there are NOT from backgrounds like mine.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

About half of Oxford entrants are from state schools. However, the reason that term gets put about is that half of those aren't from comprehensives! The figure for them is therefore about a quarter - basically unchanged from when I was one, more than twenty years ago.

 

[_angel_]

About half of Oxford entrants are from state schools. However, the reason that term gets put about is that half of those aren't from comprehensives! The figure for them is therefore about a quarter - basically unchanged from when I was one, more than twenty years ago.

You mean selective state schools like grammars then?

I'm still a little surprised by this stat although it may be hard to tell out of the British students as such a high proportion of places seem to go to oversees students (particularly Americans) in Oxford.

 

[thought]

When I was a little one, there was no local real support for sen kids.
Today the situation isnt much better. Parents of SEN kids are still being let down time and time again by your goverment... Yep, yours and mine alike.


The private schools provide an oportunity for those kids who need smaller class sizes, a lot more interaction , hands being held, because they have never left mummy before.

Surely if we got rid of these schools, the goverment wouldnt replace them with similar, no. Rember a lot of kids who go to private schools go because the school best meets the need of the child. I agree some private schools are aimed at the elite kids, but many arent. The one i went to wasnt. It had class sizes of 10 plus kids, we were all let down by the state system and most of us would have ended up on smack . dead if we had gone to the local state schools. Is that what you want for all of the kids in private schools?

Private schools provide a service, not all kids from private schools end up in goverment or in well paid jobs, I know dossers from many "highly regarded" private schools. I also know highly successfull millioners from the local state school!

Thought... Dont assume everything... you aint walked in anyone elses shoes.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You mean selective state schools like grammars then?

Yes.

I'm still a little surprised by this stat although it may be hard to tell out of the British students as such a high proportion of places seem to go to oversees students (particularly Americans) in Oxford.

I'm thinking of undergraduates - many of the overseas students are likely to be postgrads.

Don't forget it's possible to have a posh accent even if you went to a comp! (I do, for instance.) Also, after you've been there a while, youur accent tends to change...

 

[_angel_]

Parents with SEN kids really shouldn't have to pay though it's a disgrace. And most of us can't afford to even if we wanted to.

When I was a little one, there was no local real support for sen kids.
Today the situation isnt much better. Parents of SEN kids are still being let down time and time again by your goverment... Yep, yours and mine alike.


The private schools provide an oportunity for those kids who need smaller class sizes, a lot more interaction , hands being held, because they have never left mummy before.

Surely if we got rid of these schools, the goverment wouldnt replace them with similar, no. Rember a lot of kids who go to private schools go because the school best meets the need of the child. I agree some private schools are aimed at the elite kids, but many arent. The one i went to wasnt. It had class sizes of 10 plus kids, we were all let down by the state system and most of us would have ended up on smack . dead if we had gone to the local state schools. Is that what you want for all of the kids in private schools?

Private schools provide a service, not all kids from private schools end up in goverment or in well paid jobs, I know dossers from many "highly regarded" private schools. I also know highly successfull millioners from the local state school!

Thought... Dont assume everything... you aint walked in anyone elses shoes.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

What's the difference between a private and public school?

None here but in some countries 'public' schools are state schools
Traditionally private schools have always been referred to as 'public' schools here, all V confusing

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Parents with SEN kids really shouldn't have to pay though it's a disgrace. And most of us can't afford to even if we wanted to.

Nope very true, their fees are necessarily high because of the way in which they specialise and offer high teacher /pupil ratios.
If you can prove that your LEA cannot make provision which will meet your childs needs you can ask a tribunal to name a school which can, state or .private.
If the tribunal finds that the LEA cannot make adequate provision or has not made adequate provision it is open to them to order your childs place be funded.
In practice they very very rarely accede without a fight though but its worth it if their plans for your child are poor.
Its worth remembering that, especially with the number of children who need specialist schooling V's state places in units.

 

[_angel_]

Nope very true, their fees are necessarily high because of the way in which they specialise and offer high teacher /pupil ratios.
If you can prove that your LEA cannot make provision which will meet your childs needs you can ask a tribunal to name a school which can, state or .private.
If the tribunal finds that the LEA cannot make adequate provision or has not made adequate provision it is open to them to order your childs place be funded.
In practice they very very rarely accede without a fight though but its worth it if their plans for your child are poor.
Its worth remembering that, especially with the number of children who need specialist schooling V's state places in units.

You'll be doing well to get our LEA to fund owt like that. I did hear of someone succeeding in funding a AVA Lovass programme (very intensive VERY expensive) BUT the family had to prove it was worthwhile ie they had to fund it themselves to start with. IE the LEA will pay then if the family can already afford to pay for it themselves but not otherwise. Bonkers.