Public meeting - Why the Socialist Party is not socialist

[rauscher]

is this common on the left? [honest question, it wasn't the case in the swp]

No, I don't think it's that common. The only other group I'm aware of where sexual exploitation/abuse of young women seems to have been rife was Gerry Healy's SLL/WRP.

It's interesting that the Healy tradition of the early 1960's is something the Sparts claim as part of their heritage. Of course they tried to fuse with Healy's group at that time (a marriage made in heaven!) - unsuccesfully.

The internal life of a small organisation reflects the character of the leader almost directly (and not its so-called politics). If the leader is Roberston the internal life will be pretty sordid.

As to whether the Spart women are attractive I guess that's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Fullyplumped]

is this common on the left? [honest question, it wasn't the case in the swp]

I heard it was an issue in the IMG/Socialist Action in the 70s and 80s. Right enough, I heard it from former members in the 80s who might have had a pickaxe to grind. Certainly, there have been questions over standards of personal conduct in Militant in Scotland, and the SSP more recently, but these are largely in the land of rumour, not proven fact.

 

[cockneyrebel]

The sparts are a disgusting sect, and the stuff that goes on is well documented, for that reason I don't think they should be regarded as a political group, but a nutty cult. That Robertson bloke should be locked up.

is this common on the left? [honest question, it wasn't the case in the swp]

I don't think it exists like it does in the Sparts, the only example I can think of is the Healyites where there was a comparison to be made.

Having said that I have heard of other dodgy stuff (about the RCP for example).

On a personal level I have seen blokes in their late 20s and 30s go with 16/17 year old women in political groups and I think that's bang out of order. Firstly I don't understand why a bloke of that age would want to anyway and secondly I don't think it's appropriate in a political group.

 

[rauscher]

That Robertson bloke should be locked up.

CR! You are surely not appealing to the state to intervene in the workers movement - joke, don't worry, I know it's just a turn of phrase.

Apart from that I think it's interesting that the IBT start this thread to advertize a meeting and then are too gutless to defend their tradition when it comes under attack.

Of course they may feel the people posting are not worth arguing with. But there are far more people viewing than posting. And if they are not worth addressing why bother to post in the first place.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Given that the slagging between the UK sects rarely sticks to queensbury rules

Now there's an idea. Could be like in certain boys' schools: if they won't stop arguing, give 'em each a pair of gloves and let them work it out in a ring. So who could have who, do you reckon?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I heard it was an issue in the IMG/Socialist Action in the 70s and 80s. Right enough, I heard it from former members in the 80s who might have had a pickaxe to grind. ....

Absolutely no way - the standards of personal conduct in the IMG were among the highest I've ever encountered from any left groups. The IMG was one of the few organisations at the time that established women's caucuses within the organisation and gave them the right to discuss any issues. Of course there were a number of relationships among members, but certainly any exploitation by members who were men would never have been tolerated. One example is that no applause was ever accepted at any internal conferences in case it encouraged male macho debating techniques.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

pace Woody Allen

Could you boo?

 

[Fullyplumped]

Absolutely no way - the standards of personal conduct in the IMG were among the highest I've ever encountered from any left groups. The IMG was one of the few organisations at the time that established women's caucuses within the organisation and gave them the right to discuss any issues. Of course there were a number of relationships among members, but certainly any exploitation by members who were men would never have been tolerated. One example is that no applause was ever accepted at any internal conferences in case it encouraged male macho debating techniques.

Fair enough. As I said, this came from two former (women) members of the IMG, who experienced the organisation as students in the late 70s early 80s and told me of their experiences in the 80s. They described pressure from the organisation to form relationships with men. We'd all decided to join the Labour Party and we all had different "survivor's stories" to tell of our past experiences!

 

[rauscher]

Now there's an idea. Could be like in certain boys' schools: if they won't stop arguing, give 'em each a pair of gloves and let them work it out in a ring. So who could have who, do you reckon?

Could they wrestle in red jello? It would be much more entertaining. How about Ian Donovan versus Eihblin Macdonald of the Sparts as the top of the bill.

More seriously, I remember the IMG of the 70's and 80's (wasn't a member) and I find it very unlikely that sexually abusive practice would have been tolerated. They were terrifyingly politically correct when it came to feminism. This is not great but it's better than its opposite.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Could you boo?

No. Strict silence - the issues were what mattered.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Fair enough. As I said, this came from two former (women) members of the IMG, who experienced the organisation as students in the late 70s early 80s and told me of their experiences in the 80s. They described pressure from the organisation to form relationships with men. We'd all decided to join the Labour Party and we all had different "survivor's stories" to tell of our past experiences!

I find it hard to believe ...

 

[imposs1904]

The best attempt I saw last year at Socialism was the SPGB advertising its conference at the Quaker Meeting House and getting stragglers to go to their meeting. It took me about five minutes to work out that it was'nt an SP meeting

Five minutes to tell the difference between wannabe bolsheviks and the spgb?
You're obviously not a candidate for the central committee anytime soon.

 

[Nigel]

Anyone go to this meeting?

Anyomne go to this meeting?
Talked to one member of the IBT,b who told me the SP was reformist because they were involved with the electorial process.l

Out of curiosity did anyone go to the meeting on setting up a trade union Branch in their workplace, This was a meeting I really wanted to go to but could'nt make. Anyone got any notes or information, comeback on this. I would much apprciate it.

What about Tommy (pants down) Sherridens half hour tirade, managed to talk about everything from his 'persecution' by the Mudoch press and SSP, to its evils and the evils of all aspects Capitalism and its supporters, but never decided to mention anything about politics in Scotland!Quite arrogantely telling people to join the SP, even though he is not in the CWI (yet)

 

[Bolshevik]

Anyomne go to this meeting?
Talked to one member of the IBT,b who told me the SP was reformist because they were involved with the electorial process.l

The IBT explanation of why the SP are reformist is actually slightly different from that as it is quite possible for revolutionaries to be involved with the electoral process. The SP are reformist because of the way they are involved in the electoral process - by putting forward a reformist programme.

See the IBT leaflets on the last couple of elections for an explanation of our approach to the electoral process and the various reformist candidates:

"British Election 2001: Vote SA/SLP/SSP! - No Vote to Labour!"
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no24/Brit_election2001.html

"What Choice for Workers? - Labour, trade unions and reformist dead ends"
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/Britishelection05.html

And the SP election manifesto for proof of their reformist approach:
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/Manifesto.htm

 

[Taxamo Welf]

wahey

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Yeah, but are they attractive, or not something you would go near unless you drank about 12 pints????

1) if thats not ironic, thats well out of line. I'm still gonna answer tho

2) i met one once and she was very nice. I wouldn't have slept with her personally and it was not something that i had thought about til u asked, but yeah, she was pleasant enough. So 1/7th of the IBT is shaggeable

 

[Bolshevik]

CR! You are surely not appealing to the state to intervene in the workers movement - joke, don't worry, I know it's just a turn of phrase.

Apart from that I think it's interesting that the IBT start this thread to advertize a meeting and then are too gutless to defend their tradition when it comes under attack.

Of course they may feel the people posting are not worth arguing with. But there are far more people viewing than posting. And if they are not worth addressing why bother to post in the first place.

From our pamphlet "The Road to Jimstown" (http://www.bolshevik.org/ETB/Rtj.html):

"For several years Robertson has had his own little coven of sexual groupies with its own bizarre initiation rituals. They made a semi-official debut internally when, dressed in black and carrying candles, they appeared as "the Susanna Martin Choir" at a social held during the 1983 SL National Conference. (Susanna Martin was an early American witch.) In the report of the conference which appeared in WV (No. 342, 18 November 1983), it was noted that the choir's "performance was received with wild and overwhelming acclaim." What wasn't reported is that running such an "informal interest association," as WV coyly referred to it, is Robertson's exclusive prerogative in the SL. Nor did WV mention that being one of Jim's groupies confers great "informal" authority within the group."

 

[JHE]

Apart from your disapproval of Robertson's... er... foibles, do you have any important disagreements with the Sparts?

To me the IBT just looks like Spartery with a new label, but I might well have missed the important stuff. (I don't read much Trot stuff these days, except on U75.)

 

[Bolshevik]

Apart from your disapproval of Robertson's... er... foibles, do you have any important disagreements with the Sparts?

To me the IBT just looks like Spartery with a new label, but I might well have missed the important stuff. (I don't read much Trot stuff these days, except on U75.)

Various
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/TB5html.html

Former Soviet Union
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/TB1_ALL.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no12/no12robertsonites.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/Pamphlets/Whatever/WhateverToC.html

Role of Soviet Army in Afghanistan
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/IBT_SYC.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/tb8contents.html

Opposition to imperialist wars
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/tb2contents.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no24/Where_is_the_ICL_Going.html

United front defence work (using example of Mumia Abu-Jamal)
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no17mum.pdf
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no21/No21mum3.pdf
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/SLandMAJDefense.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/ReplytoMiriam10-06.html

Kurdistan & the Struggle for National Liberation
http://www.bolshevik.org/Pamphlets/Kurds/kurdscontents.htm

Quebec and right to self-determination
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/TBno7.PDF
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/cnstrikeletter.htm

On trade union work
http://www.bolshevik.org/ETB/ET_1983_TU_doc.html

 

[In Bloom]

Is it the IBT who try to flog those Godawful little pamphlets about Kronstadt to anarchists at anti-war marches, or am I thinking of somebody else?

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Is it the IBT who try to flog those Godawful little pamphlets about Kronstadt to anarchists at anti-war marches, or am I thinking of somebody else?

could be, could equally be the sparts. The latter approached me once and asked if i would like a a copy of workers hammer, which i did; its invariably fucking brilliant, with defence of MJ's paedophila, to N Koreas 'socialism'. Asked me if i wanted to attend a meeting, and i said 'no mate, i'm an anarchist' - then he said in that case i should buy a copy of their magasine cos it had an article on Kronstadt.

wtf, was he trying to pick a fight?

 

[Taxamo Welf]

by the way Bolshevik, can u explain a but of logistical muddle i've come across?

the Whole Entire Left, some anarchists, and even some liberals have organised a meeting called 'why we are not the Internaational Bolshevik Tendency' - but its booked for the same day and time as ur meeting, in the same room

 

[JHE]

Various
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/TB5html.html

Former Soviet Union
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/TB1_ALL.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no12/no12robertsonites.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/Pamphlets/Whatever/WhateverToC.html

Role of Soviet Army in Afghanistan
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/IBT_SYC.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/tb8contents.html

Opposition to imperialist wars
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/tb2contents.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no24/Where_is_the_ICL_Going.html

United front defence work (using example of Mumia Abu-Jamal)
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no17mum.pdf
http://www.bolshevik.org/1917/no21/No21mum3.pdf
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/SLandMAJDefense.html
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/ReplytoMiriam10-06.html

Kurdistan & the Struggle for National Liberation
http://www.bolshevik.org/Pamphlets/Kurds/kurdscontents.htm

Quebec and right to self-determination
http://www.bolshevik.org/TB/TBno7.PDF
http://www.bolshevik.org/Leaflets/cnstrikeletter.htm

On trade union work
http://www.bolshevik.org/ETB/ET_1983_TU_doc.html

Thanks - sort of. I can't say I didn't ask.

That little lot should keep me out of mischief for a while.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

wtf, was he trying to pick a fight?

In short, yes.

The Spartacists are of the view that a small organisation like their own (a "fighting propaganda group" to use their terminology) should orient towards the most politically advanced sections of the working class. In Britain they think that means trying to split or win recruits from the other left groups ("ostensibly revolutionary organisations") and the broader far left milieu.

So most of their effort goes into arguments with members of other left groups or, occasionally, anarchists. You should take it as a compliment of sorts.

This is, in my view, a futile strategy. It would make sense for a small group existing alongside mass organisations lwith a large base in the working class and a relatively low level of political education, like the old European Communist Parties. But in places like Britain to day, members of the small and generally tightly organised existing left groups are amongst the hardest people to win over.

Back when their nuttiness was less obvious, the Sparts did actually manage to take small groups or individuals out of other left groups on occasion. Nowadays that happens sporadically at best (here in Ireland they have actually lost members to the Socialist Party rather than gained them when they make a particular orientation to the SP). The IBT has a similar conception of itself, but is even less succesful. Its relative lack of bug-eyed craziness is more than outweighed by its shall we say "relaxed" work ethic.

The meeting this thread was advertising was apparently hilarious. I'm told that a little over 30 people attended (a big crowd by IBT standards), nearly all of them activists in various left groups - the IBT, the CPGB, the Spartacists and a group of highly entertained Socialist Party members.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

yeah, but i mean like, a physical fight? win me over by giving me a bunch of fives?

'my dad died of cancer'

spart: 'in that case, would you like a cigarrette?'

 

[Taxamo Welf]

The meeting this thread was advertising was apparently hilarious. I'm told that a little over 30 people attended (a big crowd by IBT standards), nearly all of them activists in various left groups - the IBT, the CPGB, the Spartacists and a group of highly entertained Socialist Party members.

did it first

 

[Nigel]

Is it the IBT who try to flog those Godawful little pamphlets about Kronstadt to anarchists at anti-war marches, or am I thinking of somebody else?

They had a stall outside the Anarchist Bookfair this year.
I've been told that the reason they targeted Socialism 2006 is because a prominant ex member of the Millies left to join them. Don't know if this is true?

 

[Nigel]

1) if thats not ironic, thats well out of line. I'm still gonna answer tho

2) i met one once and she was very nice. I wouldn't have slept with her personally and it was not something that i had thought about til u asked, but yeah, she was pleasant enough. So 1/7th of the IBT is shaggeable

I've only ever seen blokes in the IBT.
Do they have a horizontal recruitment policy?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They had a stall outside the Anarchist Bookfair this year.
I've been told that the reason they targeted Socialism 2006 is because a prominant ex member of the Millies left to join them. Don't know if this is true?

They go to Socialism every year, and they also go the SWP's Marxism conference. Such events are the biggest dates in their calendar. The Sparts go to both as well, although the SWP bar them from the actual meetings at Marxism.

 

[Nigel]

They go to Socialism every year, and they also go the SWP's Marxism conference. Such events are the biggest dates in their calendar. The Sparts go to both as well, although the SWP bar them from the actual meetings at Marxism.

Are theyinvolved in any real political work?
Out of curiosity what did you think of Tommy Sherridens' performance?