Public Enemy - Crap/Not Crap?

[djbombscare]

NEVER EVER EVER on this planet is PE crap.

My first proper gig was a PE concert at brixton academy and I was only about 13/14 back in the 80's

 

[krtek a houby]

one of the greatest bands...ever.

no band comes near.

 

[stavros]

First of all I never said PE were shite, just massively overrated. Secondly 50 Cent hardly represents the whole of the gansta portion of the genre. Simply putting his name forward as your case is like saying rock'n'roll was crap in 50s because of Cliff Richard. Partially irrelevent to the lyrics is the music which is still stunning thanks to the likes of Dre, Kanye, Just Blaze, Timbaland and Lil Jon. Preaching revolution is all well and good but I personally think it nowhere near the standard musical standard of NWA or the Wu and "SOC" and "ETW-T(36C)" piss all over "ITANOM". I also prefer "Licensed To Ill", "Critical Beatdown" and "Raising Hell" to it, but ultimately it's all a matter of opinion.

 

[exosculate]

blasphemous

 

[butchersapron]

First of all I never said PE were shite, just massively overrated. Secondly 50 Cent hardly represents the whole of the gansta portion of the genre. Simply putting his name forward as your case is like saying rock'n'roll was crap in 50s because of Cliff Richard. Partially irrelevent to the lyrics is the music which is still stunning thanks to the likes of Dre, Kanye, Just Blaze, Timbaland and Lil Jon. Preaching revolution is all well and good but I personally think it nowhere near the standard musical standard of NWA or the Wu and "SOC" and "ETW-T(36C)" piss all over "ITANOM". I also prefer "Licensed To Ill", "Critical Beatdown" and "Raising Hell" to it, but ultimately it's all a matter of opinion.

And yours is wrong young man.

 

[miss giggles]

Yep, saw them at Brixton Academy in the 80's too. I think they were (and sometimes still are) one of the greatest bands of all time. In my opinion no MC I've ever seen has anywhere near the presence that Chuck D has.
When I was a teenager, most of the black history I learnt came from PE. They even started me writing poetry.
They may not have what they used to, but "Son of a Bush" was a wicked track, I reckon they've still got it.

 

[Skate]

I'd much rather hear what Chuck D has to say about weapons of the first world, or why 911 is a joke, or 'Black Steel...' than a load of empty macho threats and commentary on the size of 50 Cent's cock.

My thoughts exactly

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Flavour Flav went on Surreal Life and schtupped Brigette Nielsen for the cameras.

I think he took too much drugs.

 

[Boogie Boy]

But there was no political hip hop before 'YBRTS' at all. Hip hop was seen as a novelty.

This is untrue. For example, listen to the 'American Dream' Dr Fresh, which is fairly open in it's criticism of what was perceived as 'American Society'. Beyond this there are other examples of political rap, although, quite often, it appears as part of a larger scheme or descriptive backround. You could consider parts of 'The Message' political, relating directly to the experiences of a section of Black America. And what about support for Jesse Jackson running as a Presidential nominee?

BB

 

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

For me NWA launched the whole gangsta-bling segment of the genre which continues to be so vibrant today with the likes of crunk

I agree that crunk is one of the most exciting developments in hip hop for some time, although the reason I think, for example, 'Crunk Juice' is a first class album is because of its sheer innovation, energy and vibrancy. I don't see as much of the gangsta/bling pattern continuing in there as basic defiant, strident, hedonistic attitude.

This is untrue. For example, listen to the 'American Dream' Dr Fresh, which is fairly open in it's criticism of what was perceived as 'American Society'. Beyond this there are other examples of political rap, although, quite often, it appears as part of a larger scheme or descriptive backround. You could consider parts of 'The Message' political, relating directly to the experiences of a section of Black America. And what about support for Jesse Jackson running as a Presidential nominee?

Yeah, I'll give you that, I realize I didn't mention Grandmaster Flash before (and Dr Fresh, although he was very much underground in comparison) - but IMO Flash was effectively the MC5 to PE's Pistols/Clash. There was a serious political agenda in there, but in no way as incendiary as PE.

 

[Boogie Boy]

I would agree with you there, the interest in PE (music aside) sprang largely from their invocation of and reference to Louis Farakhan and the Nation Of Islam. It is important to remember that much of the press attention they recieved around the time of 'It Takes A Nation Of Millions' centred on their being an (apparently) racist group. It was not so much the issue of PE being a political group, rather the nature of the specific message that many identified the group as having or representing.

I think it is also important to remember that for many black (and indeed white) youngsters at the time, this was their first introduction to Farakhan and the Nation Of Islam, and it some instances it certainly helped to foster a sense of interest in issues arising around ideas of self, black consciousness, and black history (Malcom X for example). This was the time, for example, when many took to sporting black shirts featuring a large printed 'X' - although the degree to which this represented a real conscious effort to enagage with wider political issues is open to debate - in much the same way that later on many took to wearing the Soul II Soul 'Funki Dred' T-shirts without necessarily being aware or identifying with some of the aspirations represented in that image.

PE represented, in some ways, a return of rap music music made by black people for black people. And therein lies their fundamental importance, rather like the loose 'Native Tongues' coalition (which came after).

BB

 

[Pigeon]

Preaching revolution is all well and good but I personally think it nowhere near the standard musical standard of NWA or the Wu and "SOC" and "ETW-T(36C)" piss all over "ITANOM".

No, no, no; "SOC" was basically whack with a couple of good tracks (which just happened to cop a trick or 2 off the Bomb Squad production wise anyway). It's reputation's based solely on the shock-horror lyrics.

As for the Wu, the RZA's production's obviously post-Bomb Squad: ie his sound took its queue from theirs and interpreted it in a different way for a different time.

PE rule. Boyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

[top_biller]

Yep; you've got to give the Shocklee brothers as much praise as Chuck D for PE's place in history. Their sound WAS Public Enemy, and Hank Shocklee by all accounts had as much to do with the creation of PE's conscious and political direction as Chuck. A lot of hip hop of that time 86/87 was pretty simplified, beats, cuts and rhymes. The sheer sonic barrage of a PE track appealed to a youth market that likes its music noisy. The odd squeal of a guitar and rousing snatch of Farrakhan vocal thrown into the mix cemented an appeal to white and black kids alike. Plus they upped the tempo, in terms of bpms, also important I think. Hence the covers of NME and early festival appearances. I can't think of a production style (in hip hop) since that's been less derivative.

 

[tarannau]

I can take a difference on a matter of opinion, but we're Stavros is confidently spouting ludicrous whumpf about PE being 'massively overrated' and in the 'rockist's mind for hip hop' then you're got to expect a reaction. And then belittling their legacy in favour of NWA, Wu-Tang, Kanye 'Chipmunk' West and 50 'Reebok' Cent just rubs salt into a deliberately controversial wound. And then the fucking Beastie Boys for christsakes - you're surely taking the piss.

The Bomb Squad's achievement wasn't about 'music' or pleasant commercial backing tracks. It was about atonal aggression, a stripped down nastiness that sounded like nothing like that went before - a real break from the novelty tunes and simply looped breaks that often predominated rap in the early days. It stopped you dead, made ears perk up - drew attention and gave seriousness to the lyrics. NWA may have caused more manufactured controversy, but even they came nowhere close to elevating the status of hip hop as a 'serious' music that a community (and the critics) could unite behind.

I still remember the jaw-dropping expectation of those early PE gigs, just as some others have mentioned. Best gigs and most involved shows I've ever been to if the truth be told -- an abrupt shock of noise, spectacle and verbal power that revolutionised and elevated hip hop for me and (I suspect) many others. This wasn't some team twiddling around with different helium voice settings on pro-tools or fiddling with some cod-eastern gangster themes, it was deeper and more lasting that that...

 

[Boogie Boy]

The Bomb Squad's achievement wasn't about 'music' or pleasant commercial backing tracks. It was about atonal aggression, a stripped down nastiness that sounded like nothing like that went before - a real break from the novelty tunes and simply looped breaks that often predominated rap in the early days. It stopped you dead, made ears perk up - drew attention and gave seriousness to the lyrics. NWA may have caused more manufactured controversy, but even they came nowhere close to elevating the status of hip hop as a 'serious' music that a community (and the critics) could unite behind.

I'm just curious to know what you mean by the term 'serious'?

BB

 

[rorymac]

It's fair enough to not like them or for them not to be your bag but it's incorrect to say they're crap IMO
I mean come on etc

 

[stavros]

I can take a difference on a matter of opinion, but we're Stavros is confidently spouting ludicrous whumpf about PE being 'massively overrated' and in the 'rockist's mind for hip hop' then you're got to expect a reaction. And then belittling their legacy in favour of NWA, Wu-Tang, Kanye 'Chipmunk' West and 50 'Reebok' Cent just rubs salt into a deliberately controversial wound. And then the fucking Beastie Boys for christsakes - you're surely taking the piss.

They are massively overrated as the way they are talked up in the rockist media projects the image that they are way above anything else in the history of hip hop, which is just total bollocks. I never ever said they were shite and I quite like them (Flav more than Chuck) but nontheless they are overrated to me. Please fuck off saying that I'm being "deliberately controversial". This thread asked for my opinion and I gave it. Was I somehow not toeing the line? Ooh, do excuse me your majesty.

And sorry, when did I elected of the 50 Cent groupie club? I quite like "In Da Club" but that's almost totally down to Dre's production. Beyond that one track I could take or leave Fiddy.

 

[Dhimmi]

First three albums were great. Shame their style lost out to the mad gangsters.

 

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

Beyond that one track I could take or leave Fiddy.

You stated that NWA were responsible for the gangsta-bling segment that's still alive and vibrant today. 50 Cent is the epitomy of said segment in 2005.

And I for one like a lot of crunk stuff (got 'Crunk Juice' on your own recommendation in fact ) and don't consider it to be involved with the highly tedious gangsta-bling brigade at all.

 

[nino_savatte]

First three albums were great. Shame their style lost out to the mad gangsters.

Exactly. They boss all other hip hop around.

 

[stavros]

50 Cent is the epitomy of said segment in 2005.

Doesn't mean he's indicative of it all. Are Coldplay representative of all modern UK indie? Thank fuck not.

Crunk plays a lot on the bitches and hos terminology, which grew out of the early 90s work of Dr Dre, a integral part of NWA. "The Chronic" and "Doggystyle" were not totally of the same thinking lyrically as "SOC" but they had definite musical parallels. They took hip hop into the mainstream stratosphere in terms of that language and crunk in a sense maintains that. Lil Jon and his compadres are cartoonish characters, very much in the vein of say Snoop who was an indirect result of NWA.

 

[Flavour]

just you wait 'till Flavour comes along to this one...

PE are lyrically unsurpassed in hip hop. Production values may have got better in hiphop over the past 15 years but the new breed of producers arent using them in the right way, everything is watered down, palatable, easy to listen to without thinking about how dire and insubstantial the lyrics are.

PE on the other hand, they didnt give a shit about any of that crap!

Listen to tracks like "welcome to the terrordrome"... that Old skool vibe - but where Eric B and Rakim were a little concerned with Bling (the original bling album cover is Paid in full) the PE were never about that crap that has destroyed the genre.

Plus, my namesake is one of the best characters of the whole thing, only ODB (RIP) comes close to FlavoFlave for sheer enigmatic sonic insanity.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS!
BROTHERS AND SISTERS, I DONT KNOW WHAT THIS WORLD IS COMING TOO!

YEs... the rhythmn the rebel...



It takes a nation of fucklockets to hold us back.

Peace

Flave

 

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

PE are lyrically unsurpassed in hip hop. Production values may have got better in hiphop over the past 15 years but the new breed of producers arent using them in the right way, everything is watered down, palatable, easy to listen to without thinking about how dire and insubstantial the lyrics are.

PE on the other hand, they didnt give a shit about any of that crap!

Listen to tracks like "welcome to the terrordrome"... that Old skool vibe - but where Eric B and Rakim were a little concerned with Bling (the original bling album cover is Paid in full) the PE were never about that crap that has destroyed the genre.

Plus, my namesake is one of the best characters of the whole thing, only ODB (RIP) comes close to FlavoFlave for sheer enigmatic sonic insanity.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS!
BROTHERS AND SISTERS, I DONT KNOW WHAT THIS WORLD IS COMING TOO!

YEs... the rhythmn the rebel...



It takes a nation of fucklockets to hold us back.

Peace

Flave

Well said Flav. Nice one.

Incidentally, your namesake doesn't half know how to keep Keith Harris and Orville in their place, innit.

 

[Dhimmi]

Exactly. They boss all other hip hop around.

I saw them about five times first when they where bottom of the bill for Eric B & Rakim, and LL Cool J, even got to shake Chuck D's hand outside the Academy at one. They made incredible music with righteous indignation but without hate. All the gangsters are just the Fat Boys with bad mouths, its sex for profit, love at a minimum.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Anyone that dosen't like Public Enemy is wrong, simple as that.

 

[Boogie Boy]

are cartoonish characters, very much in the vein of say Snoop

A very perceptive point, and it is worth remembering that the iconography of cartoon characters has always been present in Rap, Hip Hop and Electro-Funk - influenced in part by the earlier Funk and P-Funk pioneers.

(Now goes to find Newcleus album with great cartoon cover....)


BB

 

[tarannau]

are cartoonish characters, very much in the vein of say Snoop

A very perceptive point, and it is worth remembering that the iconography of cartoon characters has always been present in Rap, Hip Hop and Electro-Funk - influenced in part by the earlier Funk and P-Funk pioneers.

(Now goes to find Newcleus album with great cartoon cover....)


BB

True, but the cartoon nature of hip hop existed long before Snoop and NWA. I think Stavros is giving them far more credit and influence than they deserve. Even before Digital Underground and their prosthetic noses, the P-funk influences and futuristic afronaut imagery was already well established.

In fact there were whole droves of cartoon characters around in the early days. From Jeckyl and Hyde, through to the jerry-curled World Class Wrecking Cru, the Egyptian Lover, Bambaataa's cartoon sleeves, Sir Mixalot's square dance rapping and Lovebug Starski, there was a veritable treasure trove of cartoonish rappers way back that predate the rise of the West Coast g-funk stuff.

Someone asked, earlier in the thread, why I considered PE as important in making the rap scene more 'serious' and critically plausible. It's always tough to cast aside your own memories of the time and getting an impartial(ish) viewpoint, but to me PE breathed a huge amount of fresh air into a stuttering scene. Rap had largely passed its innocent/novelty stage (remember tracks like Mr Sandman and Whistle's 'Just Bugging'...) and was struggling in my book - with a few isolated exceptions too much of the burgeoning 'serious/lyrical consciousness rap was held back by some pretty routine beats, a lack of scene coherence and a seeming lack of musical innovation compared to the bold, bright slabs of Electro which used to predominate.

PE changed that in a heartbeat for me. A screaming mix of noise, lyrical content and musical aggression that gave the hip hop crews a rallying point to be proud of of. I can't speak for everyone, but I do know how much influence PE gave to the South London crews back in the day - without Chuck and the Shocklees there'd certainly be no Hijack or London Posse, nor much of the early politically-proud UK stuff (nor so many record companies wanting to invest...)

I does grate me to hear the words 'massively overrated' in relation to a group that I know affected so many around me so greatly. Even allowing for my childhood loyalties, I haven't seen one group come close to having the same influence on a then nascent scene...

 

[kyser_soze]

Great albums, great ryhming, questionable views on Judaism and involved in the whole NoI separatist thing...

Nation Of Millions is possibly THE greatest hip hop album ever recorded - there isn't a single duff tune on it.

Saw an interview with Chuck a few weeks ago (can't remember which prog) and he's still really evasive when challenged on the Griff incident and Flavs crack problem etc

 

[BadlyDrawnGirl]

are cartoonish characters, very much in the vein of say Snoop

Got nothing against Tha Doggfather - there's a dash of the gangsta-bling in there, but he defuses it with comedy and fantastic pop tunes like 'Signs'.

True, but the cartoon nature of hip hop existed long before Snoop and NWA. I think Stavros is giving them far more credit and influence than they deserve. Even before Digital Underground and their prosthetic noses, the P-funk influences and futuristic afronaut imagery was already well established. In fact there were whole droves of cartoon characters around in the early days. From Jeckyl and Hyde, through to the jerry-curled World Class Wrecking Cru, the Egyptian Lover, Bambaataa's cartoon sleeves, Sir Mixalot's square dance rapping and Lovebug Starski, there was a veritable treasure trove of cartoonish rappers way back that predate the rise of the West Coast g-funk stuff.

Funkadelic were another great early 'cartoon' act, mother ship and all - 'Space Sentinels' on halluciogenics.

Someone asked, earlier in the thread, why I considered PE as important in making the rap scene more 'serious' and critically plausible. It's always tough to cast aside your own memories of the time and getting an impartial(ish) viewpoint, but to me PE breathed a huge amount of fresh air into a stuttering scene. Rap had largely passed its innocent/novelty stage (remember tracks like Mr Sandman and Whistle's 'Just Bugging'...) and was struggling in my book - with a few isolated exceptions too much of the burgeoning 'serious/lyrical consciousness rap was held back by some pretty routine beats, a lack of scene coherence and a seeming lack of musical innovation compared to the bold, bright slabs of Electro which used to predominate.

PE changed that in a heartbeat for me. A screaming mix of noise, lyrical content and musical aggression that gave the hip hop crews a rallying point to be proud of of. I can't speak for everyone, but I do know how much influence PE gave to the South London crews back in the day - without Chuck and the Shocklees there'd certainly be no Hijack or London Posse, nor much of the early politically-proud UK stuff (nor so many record companies wanting to invest...)

I does grate me to hear the words 'massively overrated' in relation to a group that I know affected so many around me so greatly. Even allowing for my childhood loyalties, I haven't seen one group come close to having the same influence on a then nascent scene...

Absolutely - that's exactly how I feel about them to the word, but ultimately failed to express in comparison. Well said.

Saw an interview with Chuck a few weeks ago (can't remember which prog) and he's still really evasive when challenged on the Griff incident and Flavs crack problem etc

Although they sacked Griff for that, and rightly so. With Flav, it was the usual story of success going to the head, although ultimately it was himself he was harming, and I believe he's straight these days...?

Anyone that dosen't like Public Enemy is wrong, simple as that.

S-E-C-O-N-D-E-D.

 

[Dhimmi]

Saw an interview with Chuck a few weeks ago (can't remember which prog) and he's still really evasive when challenged on the Griff incident and Flavs crack problem etc

Chuck is always wary of talking about anyone else, I've seen interviews where he's asked what he thinks of this musician or that musician and he wouldn't be drawn into disrespecting anyone specific in public.