Public Demonstrations- are they still worth it?

[Paulie Tandoori]

We were talking about this in the pub the other night, after the latest anti-war march. In many ways the day itself, as well as preceding events, had firmly convinced me that, without some sort of direct action or conflict, peaceful protest is pointless. Completely without effect or virtue.

And then someone pointed out that defeating violence with violence was absurd and I felt moved to agree. I feel like the bloke in the fast show sometimes....

It feels to me that everyone is staring at the door, waiting for some great cause to walk in and kick things off and truly change the way that it all works, but at the same time, there's also a magnificent complacency, that despite all these troubles and strife, things will carry on in much the same way as they have before.

Looking thru' the recent history of this country, a key factor in producing any sort of change has been protest and demonstration, providing direct evidence of the power of the dispossessed, and those who, it appears inevitably, remain marginalised, exploited and abused. The Peterloo massacre and the the Chartists, the Luddites, the Suffragettes, the Poll Tax Rioters, the list goes on.

I still think that there is a place for demonstration, there just needs to be some serious thought about why, how and what it wants to achieve, if people are going to do more than march up along chanting happy clappy slogans, before pissing off home to watch tv, IMO.

A good start might be to have a word with these fuckers and then show them that sticks and stones might actually break a few bones perhaps???

 

[clmk]

LOL, "these fuckers"......right and what's that going to do?

 

[JonnyT]

And then someone pointed out that defeating violence with violence was absurd and I felt moved to agree. I feel like the bloke in the fast show sometimes....

1. No it ain't, if someone tries to beat me up and there's no alternative I'm gonna use the minimum violence necessary to defend myself. Often that means no violence at all,but sometimes it is needed.
2. An Israeli F-16 and a bottle at a cop are in no way comparable.

Looking thru' the recent history of this country, a key factor in producing any sort of change has been protest and demonstration, providing direct evidence of the power of the dispossessed, and those who, it appears inevitably, remain marginalised, exploited and abused. The Peterloo massacre and the the Chartists, the Luddites, the Suffragettes, the Poll Tax Rioters, the list goes on.

It is not the demonstration that causes change, it is the power that demonstration represents. By making demonstrations an acceptable and respectable form of protest, their power is completely undermined.

I still think that there is a place for demonstration, there just needs to be some serious thought about why, how and what it wants to achieve, if people are going to do more than march up along chanting happy clappy slogans, before pissing off home to watch tv, IMO.

quite.

 

[blinkyspoogle]

i say we take note from the terrorists and cripple london by protesting at all major london train stations to the point of closure

a good few times a year, everytime there's a major parlimentary vote or something

it'd be a much better way to damage multiple corporations rather than targeting just one who are likely to take out private prosecution on top of the state arrest for anyone who does take it a bit too far, but when police start unprovoked charges it's nessecerry tbh init

*my two cents* and hello btw as this is my first post

 

[blinkyspoogle]

on second thoughts thought, people of london; are there still armed cops all over the london train network?

 

[netbob]

is there still a point in demonstrating, in the light of no-one in govt taking a blind bit of notice of the anti-Iraq war demo? (largest demo ever IIRC) Or are they still good for ‘rallying the troops’ and spreading general awareness? are there better methods of making a stand now?

In the traditional form no, there's no point. If you look at the people who have achived a change in government policy int he past few years (Jamie Oliver/Fathers For justice etc) none of them have needed mass demos. the key is mass empathy via the media IMO.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

In terms of street based political actions my feeling is demos are fairly futile these days, the future, street politics wise, belongs to Direct Action. While that has costs, the benifits are small groups can have almost as much impact as big million people demos (atleast in terms of inspiration or media coverage). F4J, while a dodgy group, offer an interesting model for DA complimented with a campaign.

 

[Tom A]

I am one of the many who don't go on the big major demos in London anymore due to the fact it appears to do shite all. However for personal reasons I cannot do anything that would get me arrested and/or hospitalised, and I also have major issues with elements that make up the SWP/STWC marches, so basically I am doomed to stay in bed while the revolution takes place around me

Additonally, I have more things to worry about which are closer to hand than the fate of people thousands of miles away (although it still angers me when I hear of innocent bloodshed on the news), so I have pretty much withdrawn from the political arena outside of ranting on message boards.

I would like to believe there are some legal ways of throwing sand in the cogs of the war machine, but it seems that the only real way of doing so is by doing stuff that invloves the risk of getting hurt.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

LOL, "these fuckers"......right and what's that going to do?

I take it then that you see no worth in challenging the "right" of the UK arms industry to hold a jolly big beano in East London every 2 years, in order that said companies, along with many others from around the globe, can get together with lots of other people with large sums of money who all want to buy some of the smorgasbord of delightful products produced and retailed by this very same arms industry, you remember, planes'n'tanks'n'that as well as bombs, (cluster and conventional), all sorts of guns, armour, grenades, torture devices, that sort of thing? Might as well just sit back and let them get on with it eh?

What exactly do you think cos its really quite difficult to tell from your pronouncements preceding and all i really detect is an obsession with not smashing things up. Not that anyone had particularly promoted that as the reason for going on a demonstration but hey.....

Or why not have a read of what Jonny T said above and think about it cos i reckon he talks a lot of sense, at least to some of my more drunken ramblings.

edited for spelling

 

[Prefade]

i say we take note from the terrorists and cripple london by protesting at all major london train stations to the point of closure

a good few times a year, everytime there's a major parlimentary vote or something

Can I point out the small downside that although this would undoubtedly be effective and a joy to behold, you would disrupt the lives of the thousands of people who were attempting to use the stations and almost certainly alienate twice as many people as you inspire.

Whilst the pipedream of the demo is to make those you are protesting against sit up and see the error of their ways, it is also surely a tool for gaining even more popular support. Pissing off lots of disgruntled commuters is unlikely to fulfil that aim.

To use a more personal example. I live near to the Excel centre and have done for a few years now. Thus I've twice seen the chaos that comes to the area when the illegal DSEI arms fair comes to town. Having personally distributed leaflets urging support for the resultant demonstrations I can assure you that local opinion is divided into two camps:

- Those who loathe the presence of the arms dealers in their neighbourhood and cheer on the protestors.
- Those who are extremely fucked off at having roads blocked, trains cancelled and the entire area looking like a warzone thanks to a bunch of unwashed placard wavers. These were the people who took to beating up the people who blocked the DLR last year.

In short, a demo which disrupts more than it inspires is totally self defeating.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I accept what you say to a point, but I would also say that one of the things that has been most noticeable and most pleasing at the recent DSEi protests has been the presence of local youth, interested in whats going on and why, getting actively involved, along with many other members of local community and faith groups, because they are interested in politics, as its something that relates directly to them, where they're living and so on. And it (DSEI) does affect them, on many many levels. Giving out information and leaflets, talking to people from all sides, showing and demonstrating your dissatisfaction, they are legitimate and worthwhile aims in a supposed democratic society. And if you suffer some temporary inconvenience, maybe its time to deal with the cause, rather than some symptom.

 

[lihp]

I got nothing against smashing stuff up, in principle- it's probably very therapeutic to lob a brick at McDonalds for instance... what bothers me is when the press use it as a smokescreen to avoid discussing the issues. like on the anti-capitalism marches, (IIRC) the TV coverage was entirely about a few black-masked demonstrators who broke some windows- nothing about why so many people had a grudge against the present system- cos they're all vandals, innit?

i totally see what you mean, however masked kids breaking shit i.e. defying property, are a good sign in the sense that it shows how completely and utterly they/we hate and disagree with the current system. it's a "thinking outside the box" or rather "not giving a fuck about THEIR rules and THEIR property" thing.

 

[blinkyspoogle]

In short, a demo which disrupts more than it inspires is totally self defeating.

very well put mate... im just trying to come up with something a little more drastic than a march to gain a high level of public acknowledgement

anyone got any idea when/how might a good point in time & way to disrupt parliment somehow?

perhaps somehow blockading them in for the night? simply stopping them from getting there wouldn't bother them in the slightest i don't reckon, and it'd be counterproductive

i say we make them all bunk up for the night and fully realise the responsibility of their position and the power of the common man.

riots don't mean shit to them if it doesn't affect them in any way.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

The only direct action to "drastically" affect Parliament would be bombing the Gordon's Gin factory.

Alternatively, you could even learn to spell it proper before you storm it like

 

[blinkyspoogle]

who said anything about storming? blockade doesnt mean storm

 

[blinkyspoogle]

looks like someone beat me to it http://www.sackparliament.org.uk/

 

[8ball]

My tuppence worth:

If you are one of those still around that belive in impractical and old-fashioned concepts like "freedom" and "justice", then in my opinion there are only two tactics left:

i) Selective property damage

ii) Political assassination

there are other tactics that could be proposed eg. demoralising the enermy civilian population (or "terrorism" as most people would call it), but personally I would draw the line well before that point - I'd sooner be defeated than become the enemy - call it irrational pacifism if you like, some of you may disagree and I honestly couldn't blame you for feeling that way

AAAAnyways . . . in essence my question to "the Left" (of which I count myself as a member) is this:

You tried voting and got a Labour Government.

Then you tried using your political influence.

Then you tried peaceful protest against that Government when it betrayed you.

I was on your side and among you at every stage - but how far did it get you?

How far are you prepared to go?

How far am I prepared to go?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

it seems to me at a time where protest is illegal that the best for of protest would be to organise multi signatory (ie the i'm sparticus defence) protests and flout the law, peacably but not for one day make it a week or a month long protest, again peaceably...

look at how effective the petrol blockades were regardless of the rights and wrongs of the cause. Marching from a to b in a sanction, sanatised protest has no effect becuase it's with in the system. if a group of say 5000 people were to occupy the houses of parliment for a month, organised and controlled the access points with say another 5000 people which then prevented themselves from being forceably removed then this would have significant impacts permenatly.

but of course this would require a lot of work and also great use of the media to explain that this wasn't a coup....

 

[8ball]

GFC: I think the problem here is that the media can easily paint you as violent terrorists and then the Government have carte blanche to use whatever means at their disposal to crush you.

Maybe you have ideas about gaining control of the media (what would be in it for them, though?) - but the advantage of guerrilla tactics is that you get your escape in first -which wouldn't be possible in what you propose.

 

[blinkyspoogle]

blockading parliment in for a week? now that sounds like action