PROTEST PROTEST PROTEST OCTOBER 9th 2006

[TAE]

You had problems understanding him?

 

[detective-boy]

You had problems understanding him?

He came across to me as someone who knew perfectly well what the situation was ... but was pretending not to, like it was some really difficult concept.

 

[TAE]

You mean like someone who was being sarcastic?

Apart from maybe wanting to slag him off & misrepresent him, what's your point?

 

[detective-boy]

what's your point?

My point was quite simply that if he was trying to be sarcastic ... he's shite at it and failed miserably. He just came across as sounding fucking stupid!

He had the attention of the nation and he blew it ... or, as I posted originally ... he "didn't exactly make the most of his five minutes of fame" ... Sorry if you find this confusing.

 

[TAE]

He didn't blow it. He may well have gotten on TV because of the way he put it. I don't think he failed at all.

 

[Bristolian]

Lotta bottle

Congratulations to all who had the bottle to take part and go for it. Its a start - Mayday can be another step. Sometimes the fear of looking ridiculous can paralyse people from taking action - like all the cynics on here - but first steps can always be portrayed that way by those too scared to act themselves.Anarchists need to be oppositional on the streets - cynical wankers can be oppositional under their own blankets.

 

[In Bloom]

So basically, a bunch of people got kettled in and/or nicked and the whole thing was a complete waste of time?

Wow. Never would have seen that coming.

 

[Wilf]

So basically, a bunch of people got kettled in and/or nicked and the whole thing was a complete waste of time?

Wow. Never would have seen that coming.

Perhaps it was predictable that they would get heavily policed and actually kettled. But what's the best reaction to that? Maybe, think of creative alternatives and new ways of doing public direct action against the war - or simply not doing anything because the state has got more repressive? I'd hope its the former.

 

[In Bloom]

Perhaps it was predictable that they would get heavily policed and actually kettled. But what's the best reaction to that? Maybe, think of creative alternatives and new ways of doing public direct action against the war - or simply not doing anything because the state has got more repressive? I'd hope its the former.

Well for a start, it's somewhat difficult to come up with "creative alternatives" if any attempt to point out the flaws and limitations of the accepted ideas of what kind of action anarchists/activists/progressives/lefties/whatever should be involved in is met with a lot of aggrieved wailling about "sectarianism" and "negativity".

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you mean by "public direct action against the war". In what sense was this event "direct action"? And what do you mean by "public"? Hightly visible? In the mainstream media? Clear in it's message? Well attended?

 

[Wilf]

Well, i've said before that this probably wasn't very well planned or publicised. But if there's a choice between doing nothing and leaving things entirely to the swp to diffuse and make safe, or showing some passion and courage, I'd prefer the latter.

I'm not sure why you doubt it was 'public direct action' - it was self evidently that. Might not have worked (in the sense of actually disrupting parliament) but it was certainly public direct action in which people put themselves on the line. I just think it would be good if all the people and groups pissed off by the way the stwc has ruined what might have been a powerful movement tried to construct something else, that would be good.

Don't see that as an allternative to local things, community things, other single issue campaigns etc. Its just that in the case of anti-war things, i think there is some scope for high profile events. This might not have been it, but i do see it as a small sign of something (potentially) starting up.

 

[In Bloom]

Well, i've said before that this probably wasn't very well planned or publicised. But if there's a choice between doing nothing and leaving things entirely to the swp to diffuse and make safe, or showing some passion and courage, I'd prefer the latter.

Passion and courage are all very well, but they're of no use unless they are focussed and used properly, IMO.

I'm not sure why you doubt it was 'public direct action' - it was self evidently that. Might not have worked (in the sense of actually disrupting parliament) but it was certainly public direct action in which people put themselves on the line.

I'm not disputing that "Sack Parliament" was public (though any action which even if succesful on it's own terms does not directly contribute towards accomplishing your ultimate aim can hardly be called "direct action", by definition), what I was trying to ask is what kind of thing are you talking about when you say "public direct action"? Do you mean stuff like this, only more high profile? In which case, how is it any different to marching or leafletting?

Do you not think that this kind of spectacle plays a role in making anti-war action something that most people cannot see themselves getting involved in?

I just think it would be good if all the people and groups pissed off by the way the stwc has ruined what might have been a powerful movement tried to construct something else, that would be good.

Don't see that as an allternative to local things, community things, other single issue campaigns etc. Its just that in the case of anti-war things, i think there is some scope for high profile events. This might not have been it, but i do see it as a small sign of something (potentially) starting up.

In terms of a genuine social movement that could actually stop the Iraq war, I think that groups like Military Families Against the War are far more interesting. The thing that stopped the Vietnam War was the US military ceasing to function properly as an army, and that started with the GI movement and it's domestic supporters, surely it's this sort of historical success we should be looking at?

I don't think it's something you can really actively create or control.

 

[Wilf]

Passion and courage are all very well, but they're of no use unless they are focussed and used properly, IMO.

Agreed - entirely - but i think its better to think of ways of getting that focus than simply saying 'this is shit'

I'm not disputing that "Sack Parliament" was public (though any action which even if succesful on it's own terms does not directly contribute towards accomplishing your ultimate aim can hardly be called "direct action", by definition), what I was trying to ask is what kind of thing are you talking about when you say "public direct action"? Do you mean stuff like this, only more high profile? In which case, how is it any different to marching or leafletting?

I too don't think there's much point in seeking big national events now - its all been poisoned and deflated by the swp. Don't get me wrong, when it comes to some kind of anti-war movement, i think it should be broad based and should probably seek to pull in the kind of people who have actually gone on the big London demos. There's no point trying to restrict something like that to 'elitist' forms of arrestable direct action. However its just practically not worth trying to put together some alternative national structure now that the stwc has fucked it all up. Personally i'd prefer a diversity of things that different kinds of people might actually get involved in - things in local towns that might tie in with other issues (billions spent in Iraq v close the local hospital); Menwith Hill type things; disruption of army recruitment; harrassing MPs who voted for the war etc etc.

In terms of a genuine social movement that could actually stop the Iraq war, I think that groups like Military Families Against the War are far more interesting. The thing that stopped the Vietnam War was the US military ceasing to function properly as an army, and that started with the GI movement and it's domestic supporters, surely it's this sort of historical success we should be looking at?

Well, it has some scope and is at least self organised by the people affected. There is a big difference of course - vietnam was a conscript thing and most of the GIs were hostile to the conflict (at least towards the end) + realised they were only going becuase they were black or too poor to escape the draft.

I don't think it's something you can really actively create or control.

Absolutely (though there is a need to break the thing free from the people who are currently controlling it - the trots). I'd like to see a decentralised movement, that actually did things - and did enough different kinds of things that different kinds of people thought they could embrace.

In fact its now hard to tell. I'd guess that there's a fair number of people out there who are still very pissed off about Iraq but have nowhere to go after it all descended into A - B marches. Not going to be anything remotely like the potential there was 4 years ago - but still worth doing. Thats why, whatever its limitations, i wouldn't want to be critical of the Stop Parliament lot.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Do you not think that this kind of spectacle plays a role in making anti-war action something that most people cannot see themselves getting involved in?

Yes, I it 'Craptivism'. I made that up myself, but a quick web-search shows me others had thought of that too.

In terms of a genuine social movement that could actually stop the Iraq war, I think that groups like Military Families Against the War are far more interesting. The thing that stopped the Vietnam War was the US military ceasing to function properly as an army, and that started with the GI movement and it's domestic supporters, surely it's this sort of historical success we should be looking at?

Brill idea. P'raps someone could volunteer themselves to write a brief article with some past examples and suggestions? 500 words should be enough I'll cross post it through the online anarchist network for a wider audience.

 

[In Bloom]

I'll get to the rest of your post tomorrow, got to be up for work and it deserves a lengthy answer.

Well, it has some scope and is at least self organised by the people affected. There is a big difference of course - vietnam was a conscript thing and most of the GIs were hostile to the conflict (at least towards the end) + realised they were only going becuase they were black or too poor to escape the draft.

True enough, though not all squaddies are entirely sympathetic to the war, the poverty draft is a much overlooked, but incredibly powerful, recruiting tool for the army. I can think of a fair few from my old school who signed up because they saw it as a quick route to some decent qualifications and a reasonable level of pay.

Of course, the two situations are different, but the point I was trying to make was that while attacking the infrastructure of the war at home (sabbing at military bases and all that) and marches in solidarity with the victims of the war (both Iraqi and US/UK) have some value, the only way that any anti-war movement could ever truly stop the war is with the help of the squaddies. They're the ones who have to fire the guns, after all.

 

[The Black Hand]

In Bloom - don't you tire of being a cadre, with organised ideas, are you better than the beginners? Did you ever start as a beginner? If so, why can't you remember? Isn't this just dressed up Leninism, educating us poor proles about why our protests are a waste of time? Hectoring put downs just piss people off, its not comradely

Bristolian said this;

"Congratulations to all who had the bottle to take part and go for it. Its a start - Mayday can be another step. Sometimes the fear of looking ridiculous can paralyse people from taking action - like all the cynics on here - but first steps can always be portrayed that way by those too scared to act themselves. Anarchists need to be oppositional on the streets - cynical wankers can be oppositional under their own blankets".

And I have to agree, in the first instance this is the best thing to say to these people possible... It starts on 'their side' which is the best place to be

 

[winjer]

Did the organisers really think the organising meetings and training sessions hadn't been infiltrated by officialdom?

No, I think they knew it for a fact, unfortunately due to low attendance

 

[winjer]

I doubt this lot had much in the way of a legal support / legal observer network going on (though I could be wrong).

LDMG, according to the bust cards.

 

[winjer]

VforVictory did quite well to get 79 odd of his mates out of the student union bar and down to Westminster. I hope he's not too disappointed by their failure to make a revolution.

I don't think he actually turned up, and despite his enthusiasm for it here I highly doubt he had any direct involvement before the 9th either.

 

[free spirit]

LDMG, according to the bust cards.

ah o
k, I stand corrected, was actually feeling a bit guilty thinking maybe that was a role I (and some others on here) could probably have helped out with. Might actually get in touch with the LDMG mob, see if they've got any training sessions on.

 

[lostexpectation]

Passion and courage are all very well, but they're of no use unless they are focussed and used properly, IMO.

In terms of a genuine social movement that could actually stop the Iraq war, I think that groups like Military Families Against the War are far more interesting. The thing that stopped the Vietnam War was the US military ceasing to function properly as an army, and that started with the GI movement and it's domestic supporters, surely it's this sort of historical success we should be looking at?

I don't think it's something you can really actively create or control.

how did the manchester conference go for them where are they now?

 

[marcvallee]

parliament protest photos...

Here are the photos I took on the 9th.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcvallee/sets/72157594321377429/show

If anyone witnessed or documented what happend or know someone who did please drop me a line or contact the NUJ.

 

[aurora green]

Glad you're ok marc.

 

[The Black Hand]

Here are the photos I took on the 9th.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/marcvallee/sets/72157594321377429/show

I'm feeling a lot better then I did on Monday but still in pain and feeling pretty crap but we are starting to get things sorted out with the help of some great folks.

If anyone witnessed or documented what happend or know someone who did please drop me a line or contact the NUJ.

For updates of what we are going to be doing about all of this look in on my LJ: http://protestphoto.livejournal.com

Indeed, best wishes with your recovery... [and your suing the arse off them]

 

[hitmouse]

gringoben, if you're looking for Sack Parliament stuff, there's a few overlapping old threads on here, but this is one of them.

 

[Ax^]

 

[JimW]

Afraid I'm going to be a bit late for October 2006.

 

[zedr]

BLAIR OUT. BUSH OUT. BIN LADEN OUT.

Finally something we can all get behind.