PROTEST PROTEST PROTEST OCTOBER 9th 2006

[VforVictory]

Now? laughing at your astonishing pompousness.
In the future? well, when i'm done laughing at your astonishing pompousness, I might open this bag of McCoys Thai Sweet Chili Chicken crisps.
On October 9th? stocking up on tinned goods and bottled water and nailing shut my door, ready for when you bring society to its knees.

Alas - the revolution may not be televised.

Enjoy the view from the Kurt Godel position. And enjoy the crisps too.

V for Volpone.

V for Vixen.

V for Vindication Against Tyrants.

Over. And. Out.

 

[dum dum]

Bollocks.I'm in spain that week.No chance of the revolution being pushed back aweek is there?

 

[fractionMan]

Of course the revolution will be televised. And blogovised, advertised, syndicated, packaged and sold. "inevitable", aparently.

Cack.

 

[JHE]

Bollocks.I'm in spain that week.No chance of the revolution being pushed back aweek is there?

No, sorry. The date is set. You'll just have to spend your holiday rousing the Spanish people to join the uprising.

 

[bluestreak]

you know, i might wander down there. i've never watched a revolution in action before, normally the cops break it up while it's still an argy bargy.

but given all the effort and the CAPITAL LETTERS it would be rude not to go along.

do we know what we're replacing parliament with yet, o remover of tickly coughs?

 

[Streathamite]

Look at the Political Compass site. New Labour is right-wing; the Tories are right-wing; the Liberal Democrats are right-wing. It's a right-wing Parliament. There is barely anything Left left.

So that is not legitimate, unless you happen to be a believer or proselytiser in the New Labour Middle Way Doctrine that means nothing more than the continuation of the Thatcherite abolition of the post-1945 Welfare State settlement.

Good luck in everything you are doing - and above all, let's find our voices! The oxygen of publicity was stolen from us.

Who is going to change the system if not us?

sunshine, I really think you need to finish double maths homework before you start the revolution...
and - again - IF THE ELECTORATE RETURNED A PARLIAMENT OF THIS COMPOSITION BY EXACTLY THE SAME MEANS AS THE PAST....
it.
is.
legitimate.
you may not agree with the voters choices, but the means of choice - and therefore the end result - is 150% kosher and abovwe board.
sorry, son, you're a clown. now tidy up your room, before your ma sees that mess.

 

[dum dum]

No, sorry. The date is set. You'll just have to spend your holiday rousing the Spanish people to join the uprising.

Fair enough,is it worth bringing back dutyfree fags or will there be plenty of black market fags around post revolution

 

[bluestreak]

but to perhaps put the point a different way RJ, perhaps what fishermen's friend means is that the system is inherantly biased: no left-wing party would receive the corporate backing necessary to become widespread and a viable electoral option, so the only widespread choices are between three shades of the same political spectrum. thus you only get a true choice if can personally see a difference. with no "none of the above" choice and no widespread spectrum choices possible it is hard to say that parliament represents the view of the british public.

this doesn't mean that it doesnt have legal legitimacy, but from a short-answer philosophical point of view it doesn't.

i fancy an apple, but i've got a choice between a mars bar, some maltesers, and a nice dairy milk. you call call it choice alright, but it's pretty limited, and it's neither what i want nor what's good for me!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

One of the most interesting, and most lamentable, features of the 'war on terror' period is how far the anti-war movement, or perhaps peace movement, and more broadly the Left, has been fragmented and fractured. The old principle of 'divida et impera' has been flourishing.
.

I couldn't agree more. We must all unite against the common enemy of peace, progress and equality.




















This Bloke

 

[Streathamite]

but to perhaps put the point a different way RJ, perhaps what fishermen's friend means is that the system is inherantly biased: no left-wing party would receive the corporate backing necessary to become widespread and a viable electoral option, so the only widespread choices are between three shades of the same political spectrum. thus you only get a true choice if can personally see a difference. with no "none of the above" choice and no widespread spectrum choices possible it is hard to say that parliament represents the view of the british public.

err, I know all that, it's called capitalism, and it's the (rather clever) way the British ruling classes work to stifle dissent or rebellion, as they always have done since they realised they had to give the vote to peasants like me; drag all ruling parties to the centre right, co-opt and castrate the rabblerousers with the warm, suffocating embrace of the state. That, plus the meejah are enought o ensure all truly revolutionary options are reduced to flogging papers outside Tesco.
It is an unholy alliance between State, Business and the eternally-reliable gullibility and complacency of the least revolutionary working class in Europe; ours.
but lozengeboy said;

The notion that this Parliament are democratically elected is farcical.

It sure isn't farcical, it's no more and no less true than in the past.

 

[Streathamite]

There is, however, a mighty big anti-war protest being held in Manchester on 23 September with coaches and trains booked from all over. This year may not see the back of capitalism, but it might see the back of Blair.

I wish you were right but I fear not; the buggersd taken everything that ciould be thrown at him and come out stronger. 2 million marched in London; he ignored it as if it wasn't there.

 

[Streathamite]

It won't. World proletarian socialist revolution is scheduled for next February.

oh bugger I had decorators fixed for that month!

 

[Billynose]

Do you run upstairs to play Crass (who you do not really like), slam the door because your parents don’t get you?

 

[bluestreak]

It sure isn't farcical, it's no more and no less true than in the past.

that's true enough, but perhaps rather than attack his rather naive posting style perhaps encouraging him to think might be better than trying to alienate with abuse. i'm sure you made hyperbolic statements about complex political ideas yourself once.

 

[Streathamite]

that's true enough, but perhaps rather than attack his rather naive posting style perhaps encouraging him to think might be better than trying to alienate with abuse. i'm sure you made hyperbolic statements about complex political ideas yourself once.

it needs more than me taking the piss out of him to get him to really think it through - mr fisherman's friend here needs a full blown political education tbh, for preference an old-skool marxist one.
and umm no, i didn't really, I was apolitical till uni, and fortunately, the people were on hand to deliver that education.

 

[liampreston]

What a brilliant act of lunacy! Is it just for the left or can anyone join? Do I have to type in CAPITALS if I want my point raised?

Good luck to you, but I kind of lost interest when you said the elected parliament had no legitimacy because your own views were not represented. That's called "the way people voted" plus "the way our voting system works". Not that I am a fan of the latter, maybe I should join this, er, rousing...erm...event?

=)

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What a brilliant act of lunacy! Is it just for the left or can anyone join? Do I have to type in CAPITALS if I want my point raised?

Good luck to you, but I kind of lost interest when you said the elected parliament had no legitimacy because your own views were not represented. That's called "the way people voted" plus "the way our voting system works". Not that I am a fan of the latter, maybe I should join this, er, rousing...erm...event?

=)

I agree that the voting system is buggered but how will the OP and his / her mates react when they find that a reformed voting system gives us a parliament made up of 2/3rds current major parties and a remainder split between extreme right, some small socialist parties and the ulster unionist parties. A reform of parliamentary voting wouldn't necessarily give a socialist majority it might be a whole lot worse, more worse than we can imagine.

 

[JHE]

I agree that the voting system is buggered but how will the OP and his / her mates react when they find that a reformed voting system gives us a parliament made up of 2/3rds current major parties and a remainder split between extreme right, some small socialist parties and the ulster unionist parties. A reform of parliamentary voting wouldn't necessarily give a socialist majority it might be a whole lot worse, more worse than we can imagine.

Of course it wouldn't produce a socialist majority in parliament now or in the near future. That's simply because there isn't a socialist majority in the country. Indeed, socialists are a smallish minority.

PR would, however, be more democratic - and I really can't see how the composition of the HoC that you describe would be worse. (Honestly, I don't understand what you fear would result from PR.)

If there is ever going to be a transition to socialism in this country, it will have to be democratic - based on the will of the majority. Our odd electoral system is never going to be a short cut.

It's ages since I've heard or read Scargill on PR, but he used to make these points well and AFAIK he'll still sound on the question.

 

[smokedout]

i think i'll take it from here VfV, no offence

im getting behind this, 100%, it aint perfect but what is

while we on the (anarchist) left rip each other apart we're fast becoming a laughing stock ...

... we weren't a laughing stock after J18

forget the bullshit, the politics and the splits .. lets just put some fucking people on the street and see what happens, a show of unity and a show of strength

we've got the tories to look forward soon, let's mobilise now

ya basta!

an' all that

 

[Streathamite]

i think i'll take it from here VfV, no offence

im getting behind this, 100%, it aint perfect but what is

while we on the (anarchist) left rip each other apart we're fast becoming a laughing stock ...

... we weren't a laughing stock after J18

forget the bullshit, the politics and the splits .. lets just put some fucking people on the street and see what happens, a show of unity and a show of strength

we did all this with a march of 2 million. it got ignored. A 'show' per se is not enough. Not while the left and the masses (in the UK) are so disconnected.

 

[smokedout]

we did all this with a march of 2 million. it got ignored.

that was hardly a march of the anarchist left though

in the 90's we stopped roads being built, we partied on motorways, we held huge free festivals, we raved in trafalgar square and we trashed the square mile

we're all still here, and whats new are a bunch of young people, not just like tarquin (but lets drop the inverted class snobbery for a while though eh) but also ordinary london urban kids who are fucked off with the way things are but have no political focus or inspiration

at best they nick cars and chuck stuff at cops, at worst they join the swp

at walthamstow festy the other week as i walked around i heard local young kids on every stage ripping the piss out of the cops, fuck blair this, fuck blair that

reclaim the streets and to some extent mayday provided a point where people could draw inspiration, become excited about their political ideas and believe change was possible, we were a movement with teeth and we are really gonna need that

there are some big battles on the horizon ... id cards, welfare reform, iran and fuck knows where else, when we're needed most it seems most anarchists are at their weakest

were still here, we made j18, rts, castle morten, mayday happen

we inspired seattle

those of us whove been around the block need to swap our cynicism and personal agenda for supporting people like VfV (and maybe providing a bit of positive wisdom and experience rather than yeah been there done that didn't work which is all we seem to offer those with the energy and determination to try and make something happen) and more importantly we need to get off our arses ...

... and get back in the fucking streets!

 

[Streathamite]

sure, provided one phrase comes into the equation; 'long-term all-round strategy'. until then, this is an extended teenage temper tantrum, and crass political exhibitionism of the worst kind.

 

[smokedout]

sure, provided one phrase comes into the equation; 'long-term all-round strategy'.

until we get our movement back the idea of formulating a long term strategy is inconceivable

are you sure we arent the ones acting like teenagers, stropping at everything everyone tries to do without lifting a finger to help and providing a bit of guidance and encouragement to those who are new to all this (which both as an activist and a parent i feel strongly should be our (my?) role)

when we can geuinely put 5,000 people back on the streets then we can start to talk about long term strategy, right now were fire fighting and risk our voices being lost completely

its time to rebuild the anarchist movement, with every day that passes we get weaker and one day i fear we wont even exist anymore

so i would urge lets get behind this event, lets support everyone in the struggle as much as we can and do whatever we can to attract new recruits and bring the jaded back on board

to use another (wombles-esque) cliche

this aint a fucking dress rehearsal

 

[audiotech]

in the 90's we stopped roads being built, we partied on motorways, we held huge free festivals, we raved in trafalgar square and we trashed the square mile

Well as long as you partied that's alright then?

 

[FreddyB]

that was hardly a march of the anarchist left though

in the 90's we stopped roads being built,

Which roads were those then?

 

[smokedout]

the tory road building strategy that was scrapped because of camps at twyford down etc

sometimes our victories arent obvious at the time

Well as long as you partied that's alright then?

yeah we partied hard but more importantly we fought and we still are

but our visibility has shrunk to almost zero which is why we arent attracting new folk and why those of us still here are largely feeling depressed and demotivated

its down to us to turn the corner

 

[Fullyplumped]

The old principle of 'divida et impera' has been flourishing.

May I just say how refreshing it is to see the correct use of Latin in the context of the Revolution. EXCELLENT use of the vocative case there.

Or do I mean imperative mood? I dunno.

 

[FreddyB]

the tory road building strategy that was scrapped because of camps at twyford down etc

They didn't scrap it they lost the election, then Labour obligingly built the Birmingham Northern relief road and in a few years they or the Tories wil extend it to Manchester

 

[smokedout]

so you think the fact that new roads being built were being faced with an eviciion bill that ran to several millions of pounds as well as the massive PR damage wasnt the reason that even before they lost the election the tories retreated massively on there road building project and by and large new labour have never followed it up?

anyway fuck off with yer derail, thats not what this thread is about

 

[Streathamite]

until we get our movement back the idea of formulating a long term strategy is inconceivable

are you sure we arent the ones acting like teenagers, stropping at everything everyone tries to do without lifting a finger to help and providing a bit of guidance and encouragement to those who are new to all this (which both as an activist and a parent i feel strongly should be our (my?) role)

when we can geuinely put 5,000 people back on the streets then we can start to talk about long term strategy, right now were fire fighting and risk our voices being lost completely

its time to rebuild the anarchist movement, with every day that passes we get weaker and one day i fear we wont even exist anymore

so i would urge lets get behind this event, lets support everyone in the struggle as much as we can and do whatever we can to attract new recruits and bring the jaded back on board

to use another (wombles-esque) cliche

this aint a fucking dress rehearsal

the one way you will NOT build any vaguely progressive movement - anarchist or otherwise - is by idiotic, futile protests like this. they simply play into the hands of the propagandists amongst your enemies, because it will look so ridiculous, and deter any and all potential recruits by such a seemibngly-hopeless protest.
Instead you do it by slow, painstaking, agonisingly tortuous grassroots building, focussing on local issues that directly hit people's pockets, and having confidence that most people are smart enough, long term, to see where all the dots join up. This, on the other hand, is one up from Citizen Smith.
and how do you KNOW all those critical of this supremely ill-thought-through idea AREN'T doing that? what a bizarre assumption to make!
E2A: you will NOT get 'people on the streets' this way, not the ones you need, except to laugh at you.