Protest against the BNP election Victory - Leeds

[partyzan]

no its not.... any opposition? feeding the media machine? waving union jacks when you believe in no borders? "nazi nazi nazi... out out out?" will that be the cry, the same cry thats been going on for the last 20 years and has had NO positive effect.

come on, you can do better than that. Any opposition is not always good, in fact some can do the opposite. . . .

Okay, so I whole heartedly agree with some of your sentiments, but if we were to take this to the 'nth degree, then we would jeopardise any chance of building a united front against fascism, and this is essential, otherwise the whole movement would degenerate into sectarianism. And the fascists would be sitting around rubbing their hands with absolute glee. As for the media, I really couldn't care less what they reported, but if you can use 'em then so be it, but ultimately it's the strength of opposition on the streets and in those communities blighted by the reality of racist violence that really matters.

Personally I wouldn't be seen dead near a union jack, george cross or indeed the flags or symbols of any nation state, let alone waving 'em about.

 

[moon23]

Mr Moon...how on earth can you reclaim nationalism, when nationalism IS the problem?

Fair play to you for demonstrating today though, even if your politics are a little confused

I just dont like the facists laying claim to our national identity which many people identify with and wish to counter thier propaganda but yes i agree nationalism is part of the problem so it is a confusing issue to tackle worth exploring though. Was pleased to see so many out over 500 id say a united front is being built we wont let history repeat!

 

[partyzan]

I just dont like the facists laying claim to our national identity which many people identify with and wish to counter thier propaganda but yes i agree nationalism is part of the problem so it is a confusing issue to tackle worth exploring though. Was pleased to see so many out over 500 id say a united front is being built we wont let history repeat!

Whose national identity? - it means so many different things to many different people, so to start saying it means this or it means that is futile because it's always open to interpretation - there is no absolute notion of any national identity and to attempt to this would take you into the realms of steretyping people according to their national or ethnic origins.....and dare i say it, but that's the domain of the BNP!

...and besides, if you're talking about national identity this is intrinsic to nationalism, and yet you are saying that nationalism is part of the problem??? Komrade, I like you, but for fuck's sake fix your politics up man.

NO BORDERS - NO WARS

 

[moon23]

By in large I agree im just thinking about how its possible to change the meaning of what symbols signify in addition to changing the symbols.

 

[Blagsta]

Postmodern bollocks mostly mate. Start looking at the bread and butter.

 

[partyzan]

Postmodern bollocks mostly mate. Start looking at the bread and butter.

So what's the 'bread and butter' when it's at home?

 

[derf]

No, opposition towards fascists is always good. Ridicule is probably the best way of dealing with them, but ultimately, if needs must, then total violence is the only way to get rid of them. I'm all for the humanitarian approach at first, but if that doesn't work then these scum will get all they deserve.

The violence option is bollocks that will get them more votes than they can ever achieve without it.

Taking the piss out of them is a good move. The dafter they look, the less votes they get.
What is true is that zebra crossing would become dangerous under their rule and, I read in the daily mail, they are going to ban tea because it's foreign muck from India.

 

[moon23]

Postmodern bollocks mostly mate. Start looking at the bread and butter.

True Blagsta, this is what comes from reading to much French philosophy and people like Barthes. Bottom line is I was out on the street actively opposing them, regardless of the tactics im trying to explore and understand for myself.

 

[butchersapron]

Were you?

 

[moon23]

Were you?

Well as Descrate said there is always the possibility a demon is creating our experiences Yes I was (granted one could argue whether I was being effective). I also suspect that continuing to question philosophical and political certainty is what makes me different from a Facist

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, i wasn't asking if you were out on the street demonstrating i was asking if you were 'actively opposing them'.

 

[partyzan]

).... I also suspect that continuing to question philosophical and political certainty is what makes me different from a Facist

Definitely, given that a fundamental characteristic of fascism, is its anti-intellectualism.

 

[butchersapron]

Definitely, given that a fundamental characteristic of fascism, is its anti-intellectualism.

It's a characteristic of a few minor fascisms - not of the mainstream fascisms, the fascisms we're talking about. Those were profoundly intellectual and went out of their way to demonstrate their active intellectuality, not the passive degenerare intellectuallity of others.

 

[Sue]

Chant did not catch on though a few people came up and said they thought it was much better than 'BNP are a Nazi party, smash the BNP' so maybe it was worth being a voice in the wilderness!

Someone please tell me this is a pisstake?

 

[moon23]

Heidegger is evidence that there can be facist intellectuals, but the facist ideology is, id say, anti-intellectual in the extent to which it denies the possibilities of its own falliblity. Not to say it does not attempt to make some deontological justifications for its actions often based on political appeal of the masses rather than sound historical knowledge or philosophical reasoning.

 

[butchersapron]

You don't actually have much of a grasp of historical fascism do you?

 

[moon23]

Yes, i wasn't asking if you were out on the street demonstrating i was asking if you were 'actively opposing them'.

In terms of my own understanding I would say demonstrating is a form of active opposition but perhaps it means something different to you and others?

 

[Sue]

What do you hope to achieve by demonstrating after the fact?

And as to major debates about which anti-BNP slogan to chant...

 

[moon23]

I dont by any means profess to be an expert so if you are about to enlighten me then ill welcome that. I know a bit from taking a couple courses on it as an undergraduate thats all. Looked a bit at types of facisism & nazisism looking at the differances between German, Italian examples also looked at how it subsumes other theories and discussed whether it can actualy be called an ideology even etc read Arendt, Goldwin, Maus and looked at how movements such as futurism played into it. Also know a bit of history on Weirmach republic mainly know about German facisism really I guess

 

[moon23]

What do you hope to achieve by demonstrating after the fact?

And as to major debates about which anti-BNP slogan to chant...

What fact? After thier election? Mainly want to keep them off the streets and ensure that next time more people turn out to vote. The leafletting before hand was more useful. Not sure what you find so amusing about me thinking what the best chant is. I guess its easy to mock people being earnest, so fair game

 

[Sue]

What fact? After thier election? Mainly want to keep them off the streets and ensure that next time more people turn out to vote. The leafletting before hand was more useful. Not sure what you find so amusing about me thinking what the best chant is. I guess its easy to mock people being earnest, so fair game

These tactics have been tried for the past decade and more and haven't exactly proved successful. Maybe it's time to look at doing something different?

Also how do you know that if more people turned out to vote that they wouldn't vote BNP? They did after all increase their overall vote on a falling turnout.

 

[durruti02]

Learn from the past? The only lesson to be learnt is to be completely intolerant of these rascist cunts. They are wrong, they are anti-humanity and if they ever come within breathing distance of real power then they must die. Simple.

did you read Filling The Vacuum yet? this was produced by a group of people who were er quite intolerant of the fascists! they aregued that this strategy si possible when the fascists are small and marginal but when fascism gets ( through larger developments in society) bigger this strategy no longer works and indeed backfires

and it is the same for these demos . ffs a million people have just voted BNP nationally, in Yorks they just got 120,000 and you think having a student demo of a few hundred means anything?? .. when are people going to fucking learn .. you can not communicate with people by shouting on street corners and behind police barriers .. you can only communicate with people when you are in some sort of relationship through work, where you live, mutual interest etc

do YOU listen to/take any notice of people you do not respect????

( nor probably does shouting online 'when are people going to fucking learn' work either sorry )

 

[moon23]

I try do to both durruti02 which is why I have been trying to debate this issue hear. Sue what suggestions do you have? its clear we all need to engage with the underlying problems to me. One thing I will say though is its that the vast majority of people at the demo were not students.

 

[Sue]

Have a look at the threads over in Politics as people there discuss this in greater depth (and more eloquently) than I could. I'd recommend in particular the IWCA/BNP one for the analysis given.

 

[moon23]

Have a look at the threads over in Politics as people there discuss this in greater depth (and more eloquently) than I could. I'd recommend in particular the IWCA/BNP one for the analysis given.

Ok thanks ill check out the thread

 

[Blagsta]

So what's the 'bread and butter' when it's at home?

Bread and butter issues. Housing, benefits, wages, schools, health care etc. Stuff that affects people's lives.

 

[Blagsta]

True Blagsta, this is what comes from reading to much French philosophy and people like Barthes. Bottom line is I was out on the street actively opposing them, regardless of the tactics im trying to explore and understand for myself.

The only real way to oppose them is politically. That means an alternative.

 

[moon23]

The only real way to oppose them is politically. That means an alternative.

Just read the IWCA view seems interesting. Find it hard to see how the progressive Left can come together with a real alternative at the moment. Think protest is an important part of the process its certainly got me thinking!

 

[partyzan]

Bread and butter issues. Housing, benefits, wages, schools, health care etc. Stuff that affects people's lives.

So in effect you seem to be saying is that it is understandable for people to vote for racist parties if they are experiencing socio-economic hardship?

 

[Pickman's model]

it is if you live in the real world, no matter how distasteful you may find it.