With decent numbers and a bit of organisation it would be easy enough to police the demonstrations 'ourselves'. To reiterate, this was my first protest so not claiming to be a 'vet' or an expert. It seems to me that if a small minority (of what seemed like almost entirely kids with scarves) are causing everyone else trouble then it can be sorted in house, as it were. Lets face facts, there were a few kids there that just wanted to brag at school that they through a bottle of coke and it landed on a coppers helmet.
Protecting protesters health and safety.
- Thread starter taffboy gwyrdd
- Start date
With decent numbers and a bit of organisation it would be easy enough to police the demonstrations 'ourselves'. To reiterate, this was my first protest so not claiming to be a 'vet' or an expert. It seems to me that if a small minority (of what seemed like almost entirely kids with scarves) are causing everyone else trouble then it can be sorted in house, as it were. Lets face facts, there were a few kids there that just wanted to brag at school that they through a bottle of coke and it landed on a coppers helmet.
stupid kid
...
If you wore an American Football Helmet and tried to breach police lines they'd probably throw you to the floor by your helmet. It's really easy to reach into the helmet and yank it, and it hurts like hell. Not to mention that those things only actually protect your head when they're tight and not very comfortable, and reduce your peripheral vision.
The idea of american football is somewhat analogous to protesters trying to break police lines, on most plays five guys try to stop four or five from the other team getting past them (other players do other things, but this is where the game is won and lost).
ETA: Oh and the pads cost a bit.
I don't like the way this thread is going. Armoured protesters leads to water cannon and tear gas. Then nobody but the hard core turns up to demos, the protesters get marginalised and the establishment wins. Lots of you were complaining that the RBS invasion helped the media to paint the protests in a bad light - but if you go down this road you'll do the same thing. Better to take a crack on the head sitting there silently like a monk until you get so much public outrage the police have to stop. Get the hated Daily Mail on your side and the govt caves in and you win.
It's how Gandhi did it.
It's how Gandhi did it.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
that's very true nick and I agree with you. However next time I go on a protest I will be wearing protection. (yeah, ha ha ha)
It will be related to my previous post and almost un-noticeable.
and yes, I was there last week and many other times in the past 20 years. After seeing the police reaction I intend to stay a lot later next time.
_________________________
ALSO:
Why don't all non violent protestors and media observers/amateur photographers start wearing white/the same identifiable colours? And no , i'm not taking the piss. We need to draw a line between us and the teenage idiots.
And yes I know that it can be easily appropriated by the DESTROY crowd. But that would be down to the peaceful(ish) majority to police (unfortunate word) the use and behaviour of people wearing our colours.
It will be related to my previous post and almost un-noticeable.
and yes, I was there last week and many other times in the past 20 years. After seeing the police reaction I intend to stay a lot later next time.
_________________________
ALSO:
Why don't all non violent protestors and media observers/amateur photographers start wearing white/the same identifiable colours? And no , i'm not taking the piss. We need to draw a line between us and the teenage idiots.
And yes I know that it can be easily appropriated by the DESTROY crowd. But that would be down to the peaceful(ish) majority to police (unfortunate word) the use and behaviour of people wearing our colours.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
and to add:
fair point regarding the armourisation (new word?) of protestors. However a certain amount of preparedness is sensible. Also, in an ideal world (pffft) there should be experienced protestors willing to take the front line to help out the new guys. Without being dicks about it.
fair point regarding the armourisation (new word?) of protestors. However a certain amount of preparedness is sensible. Also, in an ideal world (pffft) there should be experienced protestors willing to take the front line to help out the new guys. Without being dicks about it.
winjer
holocene death beat
Wood <-> Trees.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
taut blanche (SP?) do this, where white, pad up, so that they can act as a non-violent defensive barrier to prevent the police attacking the more vulnerable protestors / break out of kettles through sheer weight of numbers, with those at the front padded up to protect them from the battering the police inflict.
that was essentially the basic idea behind the wombles (white overall movement bles), but they never got the critical mass of numbers needed to make it work, and got essentially targeted and scapegoated badly by the police so that anyone turning up at a demo wearing white overalls would get nicked early doors, and I believe several would have their houses staked out preprotest / get followed etc. and they got made out to be this huge menace to society for daring to pad up and get organised to protect the demonstrations from police brutality... but there are posters on here of a former wombling nature who'll have more experience of this than me.
building the critical mass is the only way for it to work - a thousand or more would be ideal, but at least several hundred all white overalled up, organised, and committed to non-violent resistance could work... they'd probably just move onto pepper spray / tear gas etc. though if the kettles stopped working.
winjer
holocene death beat
That's a great example of what contemporary historians sometimes refer to as: A LIE.
Gandhi called off each of his campaigns of purely non-violent civil disobedience whenever he felt they were getting out of his control, or became violent, his last major one ended in 1931.
The 'Quit India' campaign in 1942 used the slogan 'do or die', and included attacks on anything seen as a symbol of British authority, such as courts, police stations (from which arms were looted), power lines, railway lines, post offices, telephone lines, revenue offices, were sabotaged, set on fire or occupied.
Over 250 railway stations, 500 post offices and 150 police stations were damaged or destroyed in the first week alone. There were also bombings in Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh and Bombay.
"I always thought that I would have to wait till the country was ready for a non-violent struggle. But my attitude has undergone a change. I feel that if I continue to wait I might have to wait till doomsday. [...] today we have to go a step further. We have to take the risk of violence to shake off the great calamity of slavery. [...] The people do not have my ahimsa. And therefore I have to take a risk, if I cannot curb their violence. I cannot remain inactive. I will certainly launch a non-violent movement. But if people do not understand it and there is violence, how can I stop it? I will prefer anarchy to the present system of administration because this ordered anarchy is worse than real anarchy. I am sure that the anarchy created by our efforts to mitigate this dangerous anarchy will be less dangerous. The violence exerted then would be just a trifle compared to the existing violence."
- Gandhi, 28th May 1942.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
@ free spirit
cool, thanks for the interesting response.
I'm suggesting it in the same fashion that foreign correspondents use blue. All political, non-violent protestors choose white, green, pink, whatever they like/is agreed with.
I'm sure it's not a new idea , however in light of the new response to normal protest let's come up with a colour.
They've had orange revolutions, velvet revolutions, what's our colour?
cool, thanks for the interesting response.
I'm suggesting it in the same fashion that foreign correspondents use blue. All political, non-violent protestors choose white, green, pink, whatever they like/is agreed with.
I'm sure it's not a new idea , however in light of the new response to normal protest let's come up with a colour.
They've had orange revolutions, velvet revolutions, what's our colour?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
'it's how Gandhi did it?'I don't like the way this thread is going. Armoured protesters leads to water cannon and tear gas. Then nobody but the hard core turns up to demos, the protesters get marginalised and the establishment wins. Lots of you were complaining that the RBS invasion helped the media to paint the protests in a bad light - but if you go down this road you'll do the same thing. Better to take a crack on the head sitting there silently like a monk until you get so much public outrage the police have to stop. Get the hated Daily Mail on your side and the govt caves in and you win.
It's how Gandhi did it.
sorry, but in the decades long struggle for India's freedom, at various points upto 100,000 people involved in the campaign were in prison at the same time, thousands were killed or injured by the police and army, Gandhi himself spent several years in prison at various points, and his idea of a-b marches were marches that were several hundred miles long with the odd 21 day fast thrown in for good measure...
and even then it took the intervention of hitler and the minor distraction of World War 2 to pretty much bankrupt the UK, and kill a generation of men of fighting age before the british government finally called it quits.
now, if that's what you're seriously suggesting we ought to be planning for, then fair play, I admire your balls and optimism, and may even be persuaded to join you once I'm sure you're serious. However, I think it's more likely that you just thought you'd glibly lob Gandhi in to the thread because you thought that simply quoting his name would cast some sort of magic non-violent spell on the thread and we'd all see the error of our ways... so which is it? are you serious on a Gandhi type scale, or just playing at it and picked a famous name to use?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
firstly, this is not a new response... where do you think the idea of the wombles came from?
not trying to be glib or anything, just that if you think this is a new response then the chances are you'll just go on trying to reinvent the wheel without looking at what has been tried in the past, what's worked, what's not worked, why stuff hasn't worked, how it could potentially be done better, whether it's actually a good idea in the long run etc.
ie learning from history so as to be able to do it better now, because there were a lot of very serious, very experienced, very motivated people involved in the last attempt, which came on the back of a decade long protest movement that had out manouvered the police at every turn, had serious international links and support, and had a huge squat party / rave scene to draw support from, and help sustain activists outside of the mainstream
I know there are some good people involved in the climate camp, and I'm sure there are some well meaning people involved in the G20 meltdown grouping, and I'm sure a lot of folk who were there last week are angry at their treatment, but are enough of them really angry enough to turn their backs on the mainstream entirely, and selflessly give up huge chunks of their lives to living this struggle fulltime? because that's what it would take to turn things around via this route, and if the support network isn't there to ensure that these people can sustain themselves outside of the mainstream, then people will just burn themselves out, and the police will pick them off one by one with their harrassment campaigns (sorry intelligence gathering).
so, what do we think? are there several thousand people really willing and committed enough to do this? and are we sure that this is the best way to go with it, or is it just going to lead to another generation chasing their own tales until they get too demoralised to continue having achieved bugger all?
IMO these are the questions that need to be asked before anyone spouts off about velvet revolutions (no offence intended)
free spirit
more tea vicar?
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
Given that this story is going to have a lot of people interested in in, and given 'the fluffies' (god bless them 
have been on the end of police violence "- it's probably a good a time as any to start a website/blog about protesting and the tactics used by the police and people should protect themselves from violence/kettling etc...
There's already numerous facebook pages given over to the events, so there's plenty of people ready to listen....an excellent opportunity i'd have thought.
have been on the end of police violence "- it's probably a good a time as any to start a website/blog about protesting and the tactics used by the police and people should protect themselves from violence/kettling etc...There's already numerous facebook pages given over to the events, so there's plenty of people ready to listen....an excellent opportunity i'd have thought.
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
Just the other weekend 50,000 people were on the march in London
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Saturdays march is likely to be well covered in the media.
A load of people in helmets and padding to protect it from police attack would make a strong point - the reason for such tactis would be self eveident to everyone - this was not the case with the wombles in 2001 who were easily protrayed by the media as dangerous and violent.
A load of people in helmets and padding to protect it from police attack would make a strong point - the reason for such tactis would be self eveident to everyone - this was not the case with the wombles in 2001 who were easily protrayed by the media as dangerous and violent.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Given that this story is going to have a lot of people interested in in, and given 'the fluffies' (god bless them
There's already numerous facebook pages given over to the events, so there's plenty of people ready to listen....an excellent opportunity i'd have thought.
Have I misunderstood or are you suggesting a U75 recruitment campaign via facebook?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Very good post, and Im going to pick up from the last point: The velvet revolutions.
One feature any movement would lack in this country is the CIA support that was generally a feature of those. Im not making my standard conspiracoid point, but it is true that they were very helpful.
More importantly, I think a common feature of those was obviously the Full time occupation of the parliament square. This would require "full timers" as you suggest but perhaps only for a couple of weeks, and part timers would be part of it too. It would get media attention and I reckon it would appeal far beyond the usual crowd for participation and support. It could of course attract more populist political elements that not all of us would like, but we are at a point with this wretched government where their lack of legitimacy makes the people look like muppets for not doing anything about it.
Next Climate Camp is said to be on the same day as Notting Hill Carnival so as to split the Met-thug resources. Perhaps it should focus on the Parliament (immediately illegal which is a problem).
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
fair enough, i'm no expert and never suggested I was. I'm sure there are many ideas tried before that much smarter people than me came up with.
i remember the wombles, and I'm not really suggesting that kind of thing, i meant it in a much more general way.
Also , don't forget, the activities of the police last week will galvanise people who were more casually involved in protests and direct action ( I include myself in this category) so you may have to get used to some of us trying to re-invent the wheel. (no offence taken).
winjer
holocene death beat
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
This was a long topic of conversation with comrades in a pub the other night.
Our collective recent experience, such as last years Climate Camp, recent gaza demos and of course last week's manslaughter of a passer-by, led me to conclude that we are irresponsible to go on a demo without more cohesive thought and action regarding tactics and means of defending ourselves against random state violence.
There are many possibilities to discuss, and we should be mindful that the boards are monitored. Kettling is an abuse of human rights and a health and safety violation.
We have a responsibility if possible to try and get out of these situations.
We can't risk the goonsqauds creating another Hillsbrough. In fact, we are doing the state and police a favour in organising against one. It's win-win
Passive resistance on the front line just lead to us getting beaten up. Every time. Affinity groups can have basic equipment that will lessen the risks and increase our chances of breaking out. Police lines are often only 2 to 3 deep, protesters dozens deep. 15 makeshift shields can make the difference.
Protective clothing could make trickier to explain if arrested. But simple ideas include solid placards with a makeshift handle on the back. A tressle table could quickly convert to 2 shields.
We need more responsible experienced activists to bring megaphones.
I'm sure these are not the only ideas that can spring up. Thanks in advance for any of yours.
NB: I am in no way whatsoever condoning violence against the police, nor would I like this thread to. It is entirely counterproductive.
This was a big bugbear of mine in the 70s and 80s, as was the way demonstrators would march from point a to point b, allowing the police to dictate where they were, and in effect confining them into an easily-assailable body.
I used to bang on about how marches needed to split and take different routes to the final destination, dividing police manpower and getting the message of the demo out to a wider public at the same time, but the Trots weren't usually interested in that sort of stuff, and I got accused of being "militarist" for thinking about tactics and strategy.
As for personal safety, I always wore shinpads and a proper motorcycle jacket to protests, the shinpads cos a lot of the SPG goons like to paste your shins with their steelies.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Until the government, at the behest of the police services, legislates to ban the wearing of helmets at demos, anyhow.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
true, and more to the point that we'd not only lack CIA support, but would be actively facing off against them, and basically the entire forces of neoliberalism and global capital on top of the political establishment in his country at least of both major parties.
I agree that an occupation of parliament square would probaably be the best way to proceed if there's sufficient numbers committed to doing it, but it'd need to have broad support across civil society to succeed, as well as some much clearer aims, and spokespeople who can't be portrayed by the media as being fruitcakes.
re fulltimers / part timers... the point is that any movement to succeed needs to be capable of sustaining it's activists one way or another, whether it's made up of hundreds of thousands of people part time activists who all give up one day a week to it, or thousands who commit to it fully. If it doesn't then these activists will simply end up completely running out of options and either having to give up and get jobs that aren't compatible with carrying on their activities within the movement properly, or seriously risking ending up homeless and entirely reliant on charity, which also doesn't leave time or energy for their activities to support the movement... basically the estblishment will just grind you down like they did with the miners.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
freespirit
"I agree that an occupation of parliament square would probaably be the best way to proceed if there's sufficient numbers committed to doing it, but it'd need to have broad support across civil society to succeed, as well as some much clearer aims, and spokespeople who can't be portrayed by the media as being fruitcakes."
Well we are looking at a coalition in all probability. Here's a problem though:
If aims and possible demands are too broad they could be vague and unachievable, it too narrow then the appeal would be narrow.
There is such a long hard road ahead but if we do nothing we are acquising to financial terrorism from the bankers, endless corruption from the politicians, a matrix of lies from the established press and disgusting / dangerous infringements of our rights from the goonsquad.
A solid well attended, peaceful, assertive stand by the people on these issues probably would get decent support.
"I agree that an occupation of parliament square would probaably be the best way to proceed if there's sufficient numbers committed to doing it, but it'd need to have broad support across civil society to succeed, as well as some much clearer aims, and spokespeople who can't be portrayed by the media as being fruitcakes."
Well we are looking at a coalition in all probability. Here's a problem though:
If aims and possible demands are too broad they could be vague and unachievable, it too narrow then the appeal would be narrow.
There is such a long hard road ahead but if we do nothing we are acquising to financial terrorism from the bankers, endless corruption from the politicians, a matrix of lies from the established press and disgusting / dangerous infringements of our rights from the goonsquad.
A solid well attended, peaceful, assertive stand by the people on these issues probably would get decent support.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Not naive, simple. And the truth usually is. One can never "co-ordinate" an entire movement, and I doubt one should seek to. But there can be broadly agreed principles surrounding aims and action logistics / method.
Proppsed aim 1: We are peaceful
Proposed aim 2: We are not going to let ourselves be beaten and killed like muppets just for demonstrating.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
These may be of some use. they're called bump caps. We use them in the building trade when hard hats are not necessary or viable. the plastic bump bit will fit under most normal baseball caps.
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=7&ct=title
http://images.google.co.uk/images?q...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=7&ct=title
