Prostitution - The Benefits and Detriments of being a Sex Worker.

[the button]

Lawks it's the internet rozzers.

 

[Jonti]

The judgementalist is in town, watch out!

 

[Jessiedog]

I was reading the other thread but not posting on it. Yes, this does seem like a call out, why else would you name her specifically when there were other people also disagreeing with you?

But I guess it's up to her as the named person at the end of the day.

Is it not possible to invite a friend to a thread I've started in order to explore an offshoot of another thread we were on, without it being a call out?


But you're right.


If frogs feels this is such, so be it.


But it ain't.


I believe that, especially given the interest that frogs has already expressed in the subject, s/he will be more than happy to have a debate here that involves exploring a variety of scientific/academic papers - in depth - and exploring the various social, legal and political attitutes surrounding the topic.


If not, frogs, let's bin it.


You're welcoming to join in, cesare, but could we please stick to the topic?





Woof

 

[cesare]

The judgementalist is in town, watch out!

I don't know how you're keeping up. On one thread you're getting well worked up in defence of chinese herbalists. In another, you're telling someone off for expressing some alarm at a thread being handed over to the OB. And on this one, you're having a go at me for pointing out that it's a call-out thread.

 

[the button]

You're welcoming to join in, cesare, but could we please stick to the topic?





Woof

There's been one post on topic so far, which was Jonti's contention that crack is the new pimp. This being the philosophy forum, we could explore the degree of agency that this appears to be attributing to a chemical substance, but it's probably not worth it.

 

[Jessiedog]

I don't know how you're keeping up. On one thread you're getting well worked up in defence of chinese herbalists. In another, you're telling someone off for expressing some alarm at a thread being handed over to the OB. And on this one, you're having a go at me for pointing out that it's a call-out thread.

Take it somewhere else please, cesare. The General forum, maybe?


This thread is about prostitution.





Thanks.



Woof

 

[cesare]

Is it not possible to invite a friend to a thread I've started in order to explore an offshoot of another thread we were on, without it being a call out?


But you're right.


If frogs feels this is such, so be it.


But it ain't.


I believe that, especially given the interest that frogs has already expressed in the subject, s/he will be more than happy to have a debate here that involves exploring a variety of scientific/academic papers - in depth - and exploring the various social, legal and political attitutes surrounding the topic.


If not, frogs, let's bin it.


You're welcoming to join in, cesare, but could we please stick to the topic?





Woof

It's up to her as the target, I guess.

 

[Jessiedog]

It's up to her as the target, I guess.

Bye Then!


(Feel free to post any studies you have on prostitution here, and comment on them though.)






Woof

 

[Jonti]

Spinning the war on the UK's sex trade

Right, let's get serious, before this gets nasty.

Here's some essential reading about how nuLabour has spun and lied about the nature of prostitution in the UK as a prelude to repressive legislation.

 

[Jessiedog]

Right, let's get serious, before this gets nasty.

Here's some essential reading about how nuLabour has spun and lied about the nature of prostitution in the UK as a prelude to repressive legislation.

Cheers.

I'll read it tomorrow, but I don't doubt it.


There's anawfullotofbollocks being hawked around on this topic.


Nite peeps.


Blessings all.


And remember, be nice to each other (like.... "you/we".... y'know?)





Woof

 

[Jonti]

Thanks JD, this area is a minefield. There has been a (largely successful) campaign of disinformation funded by the government and supported by a weird coalition of people from Christian, Marxist and Feminist viewpoints. Not all Christians, or Marxists, or Feminists would agree with their analysis, it's true, but nevertheless their claims are often accepted.

Especially, it has to be said, on the question of how many women are forced into prostitution. This article from the Independent mentions the figure of 4,000 among an estimated 80,000 prostitutes working in Britain.

It's bullshit. There have been a couple of nation-wide police operations (Pentameter 1, and Pentameter 2) targeting brothels considered most likely to be using slaves. From those results, the police estimated that there are a few hundred women who urgently need rescue. Oddly, further police operations to rescue them have now been cancelled, but the disinformation campaign has been stepped up.

The prostitutes' collective hosts the transcript of a Radio 4 show (or there's a link to click on and listen) that paints a very different picture to that painted by nuLabour Ministers and their favoured groups.

The most favoured group is the Poppy Project. It's "findings" are sensational, deeply disturbing and utterly falacious.

Top academics involved in sex research have launched an attack on "seriously flawed" research into British brothels.

The academics claim that research into prostitution in the UK published last month by the Poppy Project, which is partly funded by the Ministry of Justice, is inaccurate and unethical.

The research in the Big Brothel report "exhibits serious flaws in its mode of data collection and analysis," they warn.

The group of 27 key figures in sex work research from prestigious universities across the UK and overseas claim the report was conducted with neither ethical approval nor acknowledgement of evidence and co-authored by a journalist known for producing anti-prostitution findings.

The Poppy Project has received £5.8m in government funding and the women and equality minister, Harriet Harman, has publicly endorsed the organisation.

source

 

[Jessiedog]

Thanks JD, this area is a minefield. There has been a (largely successful) campaign of disinformation funded by the government and supported by a weird coalition of people from Christian, Marxist and Feminist viewpoints. Not all Christians, or Marxists, or Feminists would agree with their analysis, it's true, but nevertheless their claims are often accepted.

Especially, it has to be said, on the question of how many women are forced into prostitution. This article from the Independent mentions the figure of 4,000 among an estimated 80,000 prostitutes working in Britain.

It's bullshit. There have been a couple of nation-wide police operations (Pentameter 1, and Pentameter 2) targeting brothels considered most likely to be using slaves. From those results, the police estimated that there are a few hundred women who urgently need rescue. Oddly, further police operations to rescue them have now been cancelled, but the disinformation campaign has been stepped up.

The prostitutes' collective hosts the transcript of a Radio 4 show (or there's a link to click on and listen) that paints a very different picture to that painted by nuLabour Ministers and their favoured groups.

The most favoured group is the Poppy Project. It's "findings" are sensational, deeply disturbing and utterly falacious.

I know, Jonti. (The Poppy project, among others, are nothing other than an agenda-driven lobby group.)


And the stuff you've posted is exactly the kind of information that I think frogs will find useful in her academic exploration of the topic. I have a deep interest in this subject, albeit from a lay perspective, and have great respect for frogs.

Any openminded individual would want to bring the utmost of rigour to this topic, rather than sloppy, agenda driven nonsense so often published and I, for one, am looking forward to all sensible contributions to the discussion.



There's a REAL minefield in here and I hope that we can all tease out the hidden bomblets in order to shed a broader light onto the field. The agenda has been driven by the prohibitionists for far too long and if peeps don't fight back, it's the sex workers who will suffer.


Say NO to moralists.



NOW.


GO TO BED, BITCH!


*whimpers, slinks off and curls up on doggie bed*


Nite peeps.






Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

It's bullshit. There have been a couple of nation-wide police operations (Pentameter 1, and Pentameter 2) targeting brothels considered most likely to be using slaves. From those results, the police estimated that there are a few hundred women who urgently need rescue. Oddly, further police operations to rescue them have now been cancelled, but the disinformation campaign has been stepped up.

I think that based upon the best data yet collected, the latest estimates available are that between 1% and 1.6% of prostitutes in the UK might have been coerced against their will.

And that percentage, in and of itself, is obviously wholly unacceptable and needs investigating - vigorously!





The other 99% should be given greater working rights and then left alone to do their business (obviously, illegal immigration complicates this, but is a separate issue entirely - there are many illegal workers in many sectors and no reason to single out sex workers working illegally, over and above any other illegal workers - they are all trying to feed their families).






Oops!





I'm in bed.


Woof

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes it is.

So far in this thread you've had a go at JD for being "nasty" (not in your opinion, stated as a fact.) Well, I've posted some random freakout from you, and linked back to its context, showing how seriously we should take your understanding of that term.

Now, in a similar vein you've passed your judgement on me as weird. But you're the nutter that pretends that people who cheat and go unpunished do *NOT* undermine those who play fair.

That's not just weird, cesare. That's utterly bonkers. I guess you just don't see that, am I right?

Do you realise quite how often you pull this "thread policeman" schtick where you "pass judgement" on others, by any remote chance?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Right, let's get serious, before this gets nasty.

Here's some essential reading about how nuLabour has spun and lied about the nature of prostitution in the UK as a prelude to repressive legislation.

While they may be exaggerating the presence of "trafficked" women in prostitution, repressive (and regressive) legislation has always been on the cards, rather than rational solutions to the problem. New Labour, as with the Conservatives, are too afraid of a possible voter back-lash to legislate progressively. It's easier to criminalise than it is to regulate, and which of our cleaner-than-clean politicians wants to be first unto the breach crying "legitimacy and better conditions for prostitutes"?
The fact that legalised prostitution might put paid to a lot of current exploitation doesn't matter if all you're concerned about is looking moral to Middle England.

 

[frogwoman]

i respect jessiedog's opinion on loads of subjects, just not this one.

i am aware of some of the criticisms of the poppy project, but some of the most objectionable "conditions" to their work (that people will not try to stay in the UK etc) are actually conditions placed on them by the government. There's a blog post I read about this - i'll see if i can find it later

 

[frogwoman]

While they may be exaggerating the presence of "trafficked" women in prostitution, repressive (and regressive) legislation has always been on the cards, rather than rational solutions to the problem. New Labour, as with the Conservatives, are too afraid of a possible voter back-lash to legislate progressively. It's easier to criminalise than it is to regulate, and which of our cleaner-than-clean politicians wants to be first unto the breach crying "legitimacy and better conditions for prostitutes"?
The fact that legalised prostitution might put paid to a lot of current exploitation doesn't matter if all you're concerned about is looking moral to Middle England.

this.

 

[dessiato]

As long as the participants are wholly consenting what is the problem with prostitution? I really can't see why people automatically assume prostitution is so unacceptable. I fully accept that there are cases of people going into the profession because circumstances force them into it. In this case surely it is the circumstances that need addressing more than the act of prostitution? I should say that I have never used a prostitute, never been one, although I did know a working girl. This is solely an opinion.

 

[the button]

which of our cleaner-than-clean politicians wants to be first unto the breach crying "legitimacy and better conditions for prostitutes"?

Only if they could claim it on expenses.

tbh there's a lot of muddied waters on this thread and elsewhere between trafficking and prostitution and the sex industry. The three being distinct but overlapping phenomena.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Fucking someone for money comes just below killing somebody for money. Soul-destroying.

 

[Geri]

Fucking someone for money comes just below killing somebody for money. Soul-destroying.

Did you happen to see The Big Question this morning? Some bozo in the audience said that being a prostitute was no more soul destroying than working in an office.

I know which one I would prefer.

 

[Jonti]

Sex is their business

As long as the participants are wholly consenting what is the problem with prostitution? I really can't see why people automatically assume prostitution is so unacceptable. I fully accept that there are cases of people going into the profession because circumstances force them into it. In this case surely it is the circumstances that need addressing more than the act of prostitution? I should say that I have never used a prostitute, never been one, although I did know a working girl. This is solely an opinion.

It seems to be something to do with globalisation (really!) according to this article from the Economist, now hosted at the BaySwan site.

The puritans have the whip hand not because they can prove that tough laws will make life better for women, but because they have convinced governments that prostitution is intolerable by its very nature. What has tipped the balance is the globalisation of the sex business.

 

[ericjarvis]

Fucking someone for money comes just below killing somebody for money. Soul-destroying.

Yet we still manage to recruit large numbers into an entirely volunteer army.

My take is this. I would prefer to avoid having sex for money. So far I have been able to, in no small way due to the scarcity of people keen on paying top dollar to have their way with me.

However if one ignores the normal bandying about of empty labels and instead tries to look at what prostitution actually involves I believe a quite interesting idea emerges. Many of us are prostitutes in one way or another. What I mean by that is that the key psychological aspect of prostitution is placing something personal in somebody else's hands in order to make a living. I'm not sure how there's any real distinction in that sense between a prostitute turning a trick and me playing a song I don't like because somebody asked me to. In both cases it's taking something intense and personal and making it depersonalised and in somebody else's control. I would suggest that anyone using their talents to make a living at the very least has encountered the possibility of having to do this.

There are physical dangers involved too, but that's true in many other lines of work. Many prostitutes are exploited, but again that's true of many, if not most, of us. So why does the idea of prostitution generate such a level of moral certainty in so many people?

There are aspects of prostitution that are serious concerns. Aside from the rare instances of human trafficking, more serious is the connection with addiction to illegal (and legal) drugs. I don't like the simple fact that many prostitutes effectively have no choices left once they become addicted (usually to crack). I'd like to know how liberalisation of drug laws has affected prostitutes. I'd also like to know how much effort has been made to create drug rehabilitation projects tailored to the needs of prostitutes. I find the relationship between drug dealers and prostitution is often problematical to say the least.

"Johnny ain't so crazy, he's always got a line for the ladies" - from Rocks by Primal Scream

 

[dessiato]

Yet we still manage to recruit large numbers into an entirely volunteer army.

My take is this. I would prefer to avoid having sex for money. So far I have been able to, in no small way due to the scarcity of people keen on paying top dollar to have their way with me.

However if one ignores the normal bandying about of empty labels and instead tries to look at what prostitution actually involves I believe a quite interesting idea emerges. Many of us are prostitutes in one way or another. What I mean by that is that the key psychological aspect of prostitution is placing something personal in somebody else's hands in order to make a living. I'm not sure how there's any real distinction in that sense between a prostitute turning a trick and me playing a song I don't like because somebody asked me to. In both cases it's taking something intense and personal and making it depersonalised and in somebody else's control. I would suggest that anyone using their talents to make a living at the very least has encountered the possibility of having to do this.

There are physical dangers involved too, but that's true in many other lines of work. Many prostitutes are exploited, but again that's true of many, if not most, of us. So why does the idea of prostitution generate such a level of moral certainty in so many people?

There are aspects of prostitution that are serious concerns. Aside from the rare instances of human trafficking, more serious is the connection with addiction to illegal (and legal) drugs. I don't like the simple fact that many prostitutes effectively have no choices left once they become addicted (usually to crack). I'd like to know how liberalisation of drug laws has affected prostitutes. I'd also like to know how much effort has been made to create drug rehabilitation projects tailored to the needs of prostitutes. I find the relationship between drug dealers and prostitution is often problematical to say the least.

"Johnny ain't so crazy, he's always got a line for the ladies" - from Rocks by Primal Scream

I am not so sure that I agree with the comment about the Army, but then I was in the Army so am coming at that from a different point of view to that expressed here.

That aside, I agree entirely with your sentiments. The act of prostitution is not in itself such a bad act. It is the circumstances which force this onto some that are unacceptable. It is these that need addressing as a matter of urgency.

If I thought I could make a good living out of prostitution I would certainly consider it. Sadly this is unlikely.

 

[Santino]

I'm not sure how there's any real distinction in that sense between a prostitute turning a trick and me playing a song I don't like because somebody asked me to.

Really? REALLY?

 

[Jessiedog]

I'm not sure how there's any real distinction in that sense between a prostitute turning a trick and me playing a song I don't like because somebody asked me to.

Often, there's no distinction between turning a trick and getting paid for playing someone a song you do like. There's nothing to say that a prostitute cannot derive pleasure from (at least some aspects of,) their work.





Woof

 

[dessiato]

Really? REALLY?

Surely it is the circumstances through which a person is choosing prostitution that makes the difference, not the act itself that is possibly offensive?

If someone was to offer you enough money to do anything you don't like, would you do that act? I'm sure I would, there are very few things that, if you paid enough, I would not consider.

If I was to do that same act under duress, then it is unacceptable no matter how small an act it is. I feel the same whether it is cleaning the cooker, or having sex, or killing someone.

It should be a matter of personal choice. Offer the right incentive and any act could, arguably, be called a prostitution. (I appreciate that some working girls are coerced into prostitution to pay for drugs etc. although earlier posts here suggest that this number might be smaller than many would have us believe.)

 

[Geri]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Cleaning the cooker and sex cannot be compared in any way at all. Cleaning the cooker is pretty much the same each time you do it. Sex can be wonderful, or it could be one of the worst experiences of your life.

I don't even know why I am bothering to reply to such a nonsensical argument.

 

[dessiato]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Cleaning the cooker and sex cannot be compared in any way at all. Cleaning the cooker is pretty much the same each time you do it. Sex can be wonderful, or it could be one of the worst experiences of your life.

I don't even know why I am bothering to reply to such a nonsensical argument.

The point I was trying to make was that any act done under duress is not acceptable, whatever, and not matter how trivial or otherwise, that act might be.

I accept your point that sex is not the same as cleaning the cooker, that was not the point being made as you will see when you re-read the post.

 

[Jonti]

Perhaps because it is often made and many people seem to think it is true?

I guess it can be true, but all the same I'd do a job like cleaning an oven for money for most folks; or hire almost anyone to clean my oven. What I want is clean oven.

Seems to me that what people want when buying sex is an altogether more complicated question.