I must admit that the only thing that is going to make me feel queasy when I go into the polling station to vote Tory is the fear that the Thatcherites willmake a come back. However, I dont' think they will. They were a grouping that was of their time and I dont' think that they can be revived today. Yes there will be vicious trimming of the fat which has been built up over the years of new labour waste and various people will bleat when they see their taxpayer funded little empires broken up but I don't think it will be the wholesale slashand burn policy that so ruined manufacturing industry in the UK in the early 80's.
Prospective Tory policies
- Thread starter brasicritique
- Start date
I must admit that the only thing that is going to make me feel queasy when I go into the polling station to vote Tory is the fear that the Thatcherites willmake a come back. However, I dont' think they will. They were a grouping that was of their time and I dont' think that they can be revived today. Yes there will be vicious trimming of the fat which has been built up over the years of new labour waste and various people will bleat when they see their taxpayer funded little empires broken up but I don't think it will be the wholesale slashand burn policy that so ruined manufacturing industry in the UK in the early 80's.
bemused
Well-Known Member
Aren't Labour just Tory Party-lite?
I don't agree with everything either Party say but Labour have gone on a public spending spree and knowing they'll lose the next election have created a budget that they hope will allow them to paint the Torys as helping the rich and slashing public spending trying to save a few seats.
Labour have done things like privatise large chunks of the NHS and education with hardly a sound from the rank and file Labour membership when I'm pretty sure if the Tory Party had of done it you'd never heard the last of it.
Both parties would have to my huge public spending cuts after the next election the difference here is Labour are pretending they won't have to.
And as for Thatcher the last two Labour PMs have happily had her round for tea trying to get a poll bounce with picture of her next to them.
Darling has just announced some of the biggest spending cuts in public services since the war so let's not pretend Labour wouldn't do it because they are. Just pretending not to.
I don't agree with everything either Party say but Labour have gone on a public spending spree and knowing they'll lose the next election have created a budget that they hope will allow them to paint the Torys as helping the rich and slashing public spending trying to save a few seats.
Labour have done things like privatise large chunks of the NHS and education with hardly a sound from the rank and file Labour membership when I'm pretty sure if the Tory Party had of done it you'd never heard the last of it.
Both parties would have to my huge public spending cuts after the next election the difference here is Labour are pretending they won't have to.
And as for Thatcher the last two Labour PMs have happily had her round for tea trying to get a poll bounce with picture of her next to them.
Darling has just announced some of the biggest spending cuts in public services since the war so let's not pretend Labour wouldn't do it because they are. Just pretending not to.
DownwardDog
Well-Known Member
The truth is somewhere between the two positions. We're still the party of ruthless and pragmatic class based self interest. However, as the old duffers have died off and been replaced the party naturally reflects the more socially liberal nature of society.
Do you actually know any Conservatives? 95% of them, in my experience, think Thatcher and Thatcherism were awesome and keenly anticipate being in a position to administer the same medecine again.
Fuck me I know Tories like that who wank themselves stupid over the return of Thatcherism but I don't think they are going to get what they want. Yes there will be a much needed re balancing but people are seeing that the tories are not as bad as they used to be. The election of Mayor Boris and the rapid demise of Labour councils in London is showing people that there is an acceptable life beyond the skirts of the New Labour Nurse.
People have seen Mayor Boris's actions and seen that electing a Tory local council isn't causing the sky to fall in and this is going to be a major factor in persuading people to vote Tory.
bemused
Well-Known Member
Just on this I can see Boris being in for the next ten years if/when Labour get the boot.
Suits me he's doing a good job. And as a bonus he's not sucking the cock of racist loons such as Qaradawi - unlike Ken Livingstone.
I've gone from thinking that there is no option than to vote tory as was the case in the London elections to actively wanting a Tory govt on the grounds that Labour have fucked up the economy so much they need to be removed.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
"Right to Buy" for HA tenants has been on the cards since '92, when the HAs managed to fight it off because tenants, under the old-style "discount" scheme, would have been able to buy the property for silly money. Under the current discount legislation (which, IIRC, is a maximum of 20% rather than the old 70%) they wouldn't lose anywhere near as much, if anything, on what they paid for the property, so I don't reckon they'll put up too much of a fight providing the govt doesn't try to bush-whack them on new developments.
Fucking ridiculous.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Effective end of the NMW - it'll be allowed to wither and die on the grounds of business efficiency
Repeal of the HRA, FoI Act
Expansion of the 'database state' - anyone who thinks for one second that the Party of Law and Order doesn't want to keep it's eye on everyone is a fucking idiot.
Increase in the speed of NHS service privatisation at all levels.
Even more targetting of the poor and needy and taking money off them
Reform of tax credits so that the 'struggling middle class household' can access them and lots of tory voters get to claim their slice of the welfare pie
Repeal of the HRA, FoI Act
Expansion of the 'database state' - anyone who thinks for one second that the Party of Law and Order doesn't want to keep it's eye on everyone is a fucking idiot.
Increase in the speed of NHS service privatisation at all levels.
Even more targetting of the poor and needy and taking money off them
Reform of tax credits so that the 'struggling middle class household' can access them and lots of tory voters get to claim their slice of the welfare pie
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
What's truly laughable to me is that Conservative central office are retailing the "compassionate conservatism" tag to journos, and the journos are running with it rather than ripping it to pieces. yep, they'll do exactly as labour are doing, and they'll even do it with the same fake sincerity and faux-concern that new Labour have used, if necessary.
And whether greater integration (including full monetary union) might become politically convenient during a tory government. If it does, then the parliamentary tories will roll with it, however much their "grass roots" dislike it.
I'm not sure that its been all that much of a benefit really. Because of the wholesale importation of cheap labour by Blair and Brown governments it has mutated into an average wage and not a minimum one.
The HRA needs reform as it is preventing the country from defending itself properly but repeal I can't see them doing that unless there is a huge crisis simililary with the FOI.
They've already announced that they will scrap the intrusive ID card system. So that knocks that one into a cocked hat.
like NL you mean
disagree. I think that the Tories will be much more tough with the workshy but will see to it that money only goes to those who really need it and not the bad back brigade. If we'd (metaphorically) whipped the idle into work years ago we wouldn't have needed to import so many foreign workers.
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
So after the Thatcherite Tories we are going back to the one nation MacMillian Old Etonian Tories. No the tories have not changed, we as a society have changed. The tories are just apeing the changes in society over the past 12 years.
No has yet to mention the likely repeal of the Human Rights act should the tories and its not yet a done deal get a majority.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm not sure that its been all that much of a benefit really. Because of the wholesale importation of cheap labour by Blair and Brown governments it has mutated into an average wage and not a minimum one.
The HRA needs reform as it is preventing the country from defending itself properly but repeal I can't see them doing that unless there is a huge crisis simililary with the FOI.
They've already announced that they will scrap the intrusive ID card system. So that knocks that one into a cocked hat.
like NL you mean
disagree. I think that the Tories will be much more tough with the workshy but will see to it that money only goes to those who really need it and not the bad back brigade. If we'd (metaphorically) whipped the idle into work years ago we wouldn't have needed to import so many foreign workers.
Would that be the idle that try to commit suicide after having their benefit stopped and being told there's nothing wrong with em?
the whole "bad back brigade" thing is as ridiculous as saying that everyone on over 50 grand a year is a tax dodger because a FEW do it. And let's say they ARE faking it - why's that? Because there aren't any good jobs - the policy started by your beloved Thatcher
I wouldnt trust either.
No doubt mistakes and errors have occurred and but there must be some effective mechanism for checking the decisions made by the claimants own doctor. The idea that there could be no collusion between a claimant and a bent or rushed doctor is foolish.
What this shows however is there is a need for a much better method of assessing people and rehabilitating them for constructive activity if they are physically and mentally able to do so.
If someone is a suicide risk then the wider reasons medical and social (not just about the fear of withdrawal of benefit) need to be examined and addressed.
Constant non activity causes or aggravates mental illness I've seen it and the cure is to have a purpose. Giving people a purpose is going to take a lot of carrot and sadly on occasions some stick.
This isn't happening with New Labour and it certainly won't happen with the Tories. It'll be more quotas and if they die so what, one less appeal to worry about...
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
I fear for the Friedmanising of education 
The 'more control for Primary schools' is one step towards privatising the fucking things, and as much as I dislike the DCSF - the idea of working for the PFI and teaching their curriculum chills me to the bloody bone, it'd take a sledgehammer to the teachers unions, create a two tier or more education system and completely bollock up education in this country.
The 'more control for Primary schools' is one step towards privatising the fucking things, and as much as I dislike the DCSF - the idea of working for the PFI and teaching their curriculum chills me to the bloody bone, it'd take a sledgehammer to the teachers unions, create a two tier or more education system and completely bollock up education in this country.kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Andy The Don said:
from 3 posts earlier...
me said:
BTW Zachor, Cameron has already stated that the tories want to replace the HRA with a British Bill Of Rights (which will be no such thing), and the tories have never been fans of FoI...
I have an issue with quotas for claims for incapacity benefit as like many NL style targets they cause more inefficiency such as witnessed with HMRC where they were terminating phone calls half way through in order to meet the tgarget of a certain number of phone calls answered within an hour.
Hopefully an incoming tory govt will see that this form of targetting is counterproductive and not rely on it as much as NL have.
There is a need for some form of robust system to sort out those who are genuinely ill and those who are lead swingers. I dont' think that it is right rely only on the claimants own medical advisor neither is it right to to rely on some civilservant or retired GP on piecework rates to assess people either.
No system is ideal and there will always be problems but we do need a system that supports those who cannot work but is not so open to abuse by the idle.
Maybe we need to re inject the work ethic back into the UK with a proper system of support for the sick, the young and the elderly and their carers and compulsory work for those who are not in these categories but who do not have work in other areas.
Maybe its time to consider some form of working community for those who actively refuse to work either for a private or public enterprise or for the community. This would allow the general benefit system to be better resourced and better administered.
_angel_
.
We know you don't like or trust doctors. But I don't want unqualified people making arbitary decisions about someone's ability to work, when very often they don't understand or are even trained to.
I'd be interested to see what a future B o R contained. The problem is the HRA is percieved as a villains charter and is constantly used to stop terrorists being deported or correctly punished. The HRA DOES need reform and the form of such reform needs to be debated much more widely than it is at the moment.
I dont' think that FOI is working that well anyway. There are so many ways and means to avoid making an FOI disclosure that it is evadable.
Anyone who sees what is happening with it and what it is beiing used for.
Its the HRA which is preventing us from extraditing clerical fascist terrorist supporters to places like Jordan on the grounds that they 'might' be tortured.
Well the terrorists should have fucking thought of that before they started encouraging people to go and kill others.
We should be able to say to these people 'fuck off we don't want you you are not helpful to this country' but sadly the HRA prevents us from doing so.
Clerical fascism is a huge danger to this country and the HRA as currently configured is preventing effective measures against it.
In other words you dont trust Doctors either.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Of course there needs to be a check mechanism.
The problem is that currently the "check mechanism" rests on a visit by an "independent" medical practitioner, who basically takes 30-60 minutes (if you're lucky) to assess your condition (so it's basically a "snapshot" of how well or ill you are "on the day" rather than a serious assessment), and a non (medically) qualified "adjudication officer" whose reference is to a single "working manual". If your condition(s) happen to fall between stools mentioned in that book, and the medical examination has been shoddy/poor, then you're fucked.
As an aside: Roughly 45% of DLA claims and 40% of IB claims are refused. Of those cases appealed, around 65% of each are won.
What does that say about the accuracy of the "checking mechanism"?
Something militated against by our healthcare system and by employers. It'd be great if the NHS could offer a level of, for example, post trauma care that provided a full rehabilitative programme from whatever your problem was, but it doesn't, and even when, by a small miracle, you manage to secure a form of after-care, employers are often unwilling to give you time off to attend it.
It may cause it in some people, but only a minority. Just because you were weak, doesn't mean everyone else is, although I can see why you'd like to assume that.
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