Proposed minimum wage cut for poorer areas.

[lewislewis]

I'm fairly sure it's a non-story. There could possibly be strikes throughout the UK against it if it ever came to fruition.

 

[poster342002]

There could possibly be strikes throughout the UK against it if it ever came to fruition.

I doubt it. Or maybe the odd token one-day strike by one or two unions, dubiously observed and completely ignored by the employer & govt. Followed by union acceptance of the arrangment but dressed up as a victory for their members.

 

[glenquagmire]

A fair chunk of the more 'active' members are, the entryists new bandwagon.

A few but far from the majority.

If that makes it easier for you to dismiss anything they do, so be it.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, only 2% of the working population are on min wage according to the FT and eurostat (that does sound low to me) - and apart from a few in jobs that could have knock on effcts by blocking a wider circuit, i can't see them having much power themselves, which would push any campaign onto the rest of the working population and into the arms of the unions, who are in bed with labour. There is probably more chance of wildcat strikes in the min wage sector than in mnay others though.

 

[butchersapron]

A few but far from the majority.

If that makes it easier for you to dismiss anything they do, so be it.

It certainly does after the shambles of the McDonnell campaign and seeing just how far these people are from any substantial support within the labour party.

 

[glenquagmire]

Who are 'these people'?

 

[chymaera]

Well, only 2% of the working population are on min wage according to the FT and eurostat (that does sound low to me) -.

It is a very wrong estimate if these comments are correct:-
At PMQs yesterday our esteemed Prime Minister stated there are 29 million in work in Britain.
Here is a quote from Hansard about the minimum wage:-
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070716/text/70716w0011.htm

Minimum Wage: Personal Income
Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform what estimate he has made of the number of people in (a) the UK, (b) the West Midlands and (c) Tamworth whose income rose on the introduction of the minimum wage. [149270]

Mr. McFadden: The Department estimates that around 1 million people in the UK stand to benefit from the 2007 uprating of the national minimum wage in October, 110,000 of which are in the West Midlands. Data at the parliamentary constituency level is not available.

 

[butchersapron]

Who are 'these people'?

I rather thought that you might know, seeing as you appear to be involved in some way? The trot entryists of the AWL, the unalligned trots, the people like Barryb, the trots and dregs of the labour left that staffed the McDonnell campaign, the traditional soft-left, those 'reformists' from the old CPGB, the union bureaucrats, the would be string pullers of the fabian-gramiscite Compass, those whose loyalty to the Labour party knows no bounds and who inisist that everyone else is a traitor, thos who argue that people should 'stay and fight' in their ignorance or denial of the changes that have took place in the party, in it's constitution, in it's leading bodies and in its membership. Any of them fit you?

 

[glenquagmire]

Don't think any of those labels apply to me. Still, that motley crew you've listed still has more influence than anyone outside the Labour Party and have achieved more than anyone on the left outside the Labour Party ever has.

Still, nothing like knocking a campaign before it's even begun.

 

[butchersapron]

It is a very wrong estimate if these comments are correct:-
At PMQs yesterday our esteemed Prime Minister stated there are 29 million in work in Britain.
Here is a quote from Hansard about the minimum wage:-
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070716/text/70716w0011.htm

Minimum Wage: Personal Income
Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform what estimate he has made of the number of people in (a) the UK, (b) the West Midlands and (c) Tamworth whose income rose on the introduction of the minimum wage. [149270]

Mr. McFadden: The Department estimates that around 1 million people in the UK stand to benefit from the 2007 uprating of the national minimum wage in October, 110,000 of which are in the West Midlands. Data at the parliamentary constituency level is not available.

Might well be true, but that answer covers everyone between the basic min wage and the new to-be-introduced level - it doesn't mean that 1 million people are currently on the min wage (as far as i can see anyway).

The eurostat/FT reports are here
The proportion of workers receiving the national minimum also varies widely according to Eurostat. Fewer than 2 per cent of employees in the UK and Spain receive the national minmum compared with 16.8 per cent in France. It says that even after allowing for different price levels the highest minimum rates of pay amount to seven times more than the lowest.

and here. (pdf warning)

Proportion of employees receiving minimum wages ranged from 1% in Spain to 17% in France. The proportion of employees on minimum wages in 2005 was 2% or less in Spain (0.8%), Malta (1.5%), Slovakia (1.7%), the United Kingdom (1.8%) and the Czech Republic (2.0%) and more than 10% in France (16.8%),Bulgaria (16.0%), Latvia (12.0%), Luxembourg (11.0%) and Lithuania (10.3%).

 

[butchersapron]

Don't think any of those labels apply to me. Still, that motley crew you've listed still has more influence than anyone outside the Labour Party and have achieved more than anyone on the left outside the Labour Party ever has.

Still, nothing like knocking a campaign before it's even begun.

Like i said, the refusal to face the real changes that have happened over the last few decades - today Brown decides to cut the min wage and this lot come up with a petition for an early day motion and a council rcommedantion that central govt will simply bat aside.

Are you an entryist btw?

 

[treelover]

I heard yesterday that the new fixed rate housing allowance which is replacing HB is to come in as early as early as September. Imo, this may mean evictions as it will certainly be lower than most people get at the moment.

BA, why the bile against JM, etc....

 

[glenquagmire]

Like i said, the refusal to face the real changes that have happened over the last few decades - today Brown decides to cut the min wage and this lot come up with a petition for an early day motion and a council rcommedantion that central govt will simply bat aside.

Are you an entryist btw?

No, that campaign was planned a few weeks ago before Brown's plans were announced. I just thought it was slightly relevant.

What would you suggest doing instead?

I don't really like the term entryist but no, I'm not a member of any other group.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Might well be true, but that answer covers everyone between the basic min wage and the new to-be-introduced level - it doesn't mean that 1 million people are currently on the min wage (as far as i can see anyway).

The eurostat/FT reports are here
The proportion of workers receiving the national minimum also varies widely according to Eurostat. Fewer than 2 per cent of employees in the UK and Spain receive the national minmum compared with 16.8 per cent in France. It says that even after allowing for different price levels the highest minimum rates of pay amount to seven times more than the lowest.

and here. (pdf warning)

Proportion of employees receiving minimum wages ranged from 1% in Spain to 17% in France. The proportion of employees on minimum wages in 2005 was 2% or less in Spain (0.8%), Malta (1.5%), Slovakia (1.7%), the United Kingdom (1.8%) and the Czech Republic (2.0%) and more than 10% in France (16.8%),Bulgaria (16.0%), Latvia (12.0%), Luxembourg (11.0%) and Lithuania (10.3%).

Eurostat has to be bogus - I know for a fact that at least 15% of folks round my (relatively well off) town in Lancs are on Minimum.

Also doesn't take into account illegal and cash-in-hand labour.

*Nor folks working for 'commissions' in call centres - or people who were forced to sign agreements stating they are 'self employed' before they started work.

 

[butchersapron]

The Low Pay commission who set the rates reckon that currently around 5.1% of jobs are min wage and reading between the lines of the 2007 report that this will be around 4.9% when the new rate comes in (these are both a little high as it includes 1.3% that really covers people working below min wage for one reason or another)

 

[lewislewis]

Don't think any of those labels apply to me. Still, that motley crew you've listed still has more influence than anyone outside the Labour Party and have achieved more than anyone on the left outside the Labour Party ever has.

Not really, it's the nationalists that are ending PFI's and getting the pay rise for nurses in Wales & Scotland for example, not the crusty Labour Left.

 

[glenquagmire]

Oh really. So Welsh Labour's opposition to PFI measures has nothing to do with the absence of Foundation Hospitals etc in Wales?

 

[Fez909]

I'd like to see how they can justify such a decision. I don't think it'll happen.

 

[Sue]

Glen, I thought you were a Labour party member -- seems to recall you talking about this before? (Or have you already said this and I've missed it? -very tired so not that with it today.)

 

[glenquagmire]

That's right.

 

[Sue]

Oh okay. Was just a bit confused from your posts.

 

[untethered]

If this idea becomes a proposal then it should be resisted, wth an armed uprising if necessary.

Talk about an overreaction!

 

[_angel_]

Talk about an overreaction!

How would you feel if you're on £5.35 an hour and barely managing to cover bills, when they say they're going to take money off you?

Btw I can't believe how low the min wage is for 16-18 yr olds £3.40 an hour?? How is anyone expected to live on that... that's about £136 a week GROSS never mind tax and NI...and you can't apply for benefits like Housing Benefit to try and top it up...

 

[untethered]

How would you feel if you're on £5.35 an hour and barely managing to cover bills, when they say they're going to take money off you?

I imagine looking for a better job would be higher on my list of priorities than trying to foment an armed insurrection.

 

[yield]

I imagine looking for a better job would be higher on my list of priorities than trying to foment an armed insurrection.

Just out of interest untethered, how long would you spend looking for a better job before you'd consider fomenting "an armed insurrection"?

I say that because social mobility is on the decline in USA and UK.

 

[_angel_]

I imagine looking for a better job would be higher on my list of priorities than trying to foment an armed insurrection.

And what if, for whatever reason you were unable to find a better job and you were tied to the area in which you live.

Your prob is you basically think anyone earning minimum wage jobs somehow deserve everything they get. Forgetting that a lot of people earning them are usually in service sector jobs (catering, nhs jobs etc) or caring. Important jobs that deserve better pay.

 

[untethered]

Just out of interest untethered, how long would you spend looking for a better job before you'd consider fomenting "an armed insurrection"?

I say that because social mobility is on the decline in USA and UK.

A very long time.

I find it hard to believe that most people on minimum wage couldn't improve their earning potential by a pound an hour given a bit of application. How much harder can it be to get a £6.35 an hour job?

What kinds of jobs pay the minimum wage anyway? Surely even people working in shops get more than that these days.

 

[geminisnake]

The Low Pay commission who set the rates reckon that currently around 5.1% of jobs are min wage and reading between the lines of the 2007 report that this will be around 4.9% when the new rate comes in

Does the commission take into account all the jobs that offer 10p or whatever above the NMW?? Coz believe me there seems to be shite loads of them round here.

 

[untethered]

And what if, for whatever reason you were unable to find a better job and you were tied to the area in which you live.

Well that might be the economic reality. You're not going to change that just by forcing employers to pay more for their labour than it's worth.

Your prob is you basically think anyone earning minimum wage jobs somehow deserve everything they get.

It's not a moral matter, it's an economic one. People get paid broadly in line with how the market values different kinds of labour. It's nothing to do with their intrinsic worth.

Forgetting that a lot of people earning them are usually in service sector jobs (catering, nhs jobs etc) or caring. Important jobs that deserve better pay.

It really depends more on the individual contribution rather than the role or sector. People that put in a lot tend to get out a lot by rising up the ranks. Those that coast along tend to stay where they are.

There's nothing wrong with starting at the bottom. You don't need to stay there, though.

 

[chymaera]

I find it hard to believe that most people on minimum wage couldn't improve their earning potential by a pound an hour given a bit of application. How much harder can it be to get a £6.35 an hour job?
.

Judging by the advertisments in the local press and the JobCentres to get more than £6.35 requires a degree and several years experience.