Profits up .. wages stagnate

[urbanrevolt]

having long cigarette breaks,

good reason to take up 'smoking' (ie. not actually but go out with the smokers- though may be I'd be busted by management for not actually smoking!

you're right tho' 'from below' is the key! Still hard to find the door though!

 

[mk12]

I don't smoke. So toilet breaks it is for me

 

[In Bloom]

urbanrevolt, I'd definately be interested in setting up a network of agency workers, though I think that you and I might disagree strongly on what the role of such a network should be.

I think butchers was being sarcastic, and trying to prove a point that PR are the same as all the other leftist groups.

in bloom: so what do we do? The left seems to have ignored people like us who aren't in public sector, largely unionised workplaces. Seeing as an overwhelming majority of the workforce is not unionised, this seems slightly odd.

Personally, I think that networks of millitants, that organise for and support workplace struggle are the way forward. The unions can be useful in the short term at an individual level, but by their very nature, they constrain and coopt working class struggle, they prevent us from taking control of our struggles, because if we do so, they no longer have a role to play.

As a starting point, I think that we need to talk to people within our own workplaces, argue for the necessity and utility of workplace struggle, organise around ongoing grievances (the sort of stuff you talked about in your post before), and develop wider networks and links between workplaces from this that can struggle against larger scale stuff.

Is there anything out there that deals with people in our situation (prole.info?)

Prole.info's stuff is pretty good, but largely theoretical and historical, I've not read anything by them that gives any practical organisational advice.

 

[mk12]

constrain and coopt working class struggle, they prevent us from taking control of our struggles, because if we do so, they no longer have a role to play.

Whilst I agree with that, the idea of having an organisation which has hundreds of thousands of members behind you seems attractive. Plus, they have people who have better knowledge of labour laws etc, who can give you advice.

I agree with the practical suggestions though.

 

[In Bloom]

Whilst I agree with that, the idea of having an organisation which has hundreds of thousands of members behind you seems attractive. Plus, they have people who have better knowledge of labour laws etc, who can give you advice.

Don't get me wrong, that stuff is handy, I just think that it's important to bear in mind the dangers of fetishising the unions.

 

[urbanrevolt]

urbanrevolt, I'd definately be interested in setting up a network of agency workers, though I think that you and I might disagree strongly on what the role of such a network should be.


Personally, I think that networks of millitants, that organise for and support workplace struggle are the way forward. The unions can be useful in the short term at an individual level, but by their very nature, they constrain and coopt working class struggle, they prevent us from taking control of our struggles, because if we do so, they no longer have a role to play.

As a starting point, I think that we need to talk to people within our own workplaces, argue for the necessity and utility of workplace struggle, organise around ongoing grievances (the sort of stuff you talked about in your post before), and develop wider networks and links between workplaces from this that can struggle against larger scale stuff.


Prole.info's stuff is pretty good, but largely theoretical and historical, I've not read anything by them that gives any practical organisational advice.

We may disagree though i'm not so sure!

But disagreement's fine even good as long as we don't get into pointless arguments. But open debates and discussions about the ways forward is very useful I think! I'd be tempted to say let a thousand flowers of thought bloom but of course that particular slogan has an unfortunate history!

Unfortunatley perhaps in terms of this pluralism I find myself in almoist complete agreement with what you say!
Networks of militants that organise for and support workplace struggles
is absolutely the key I think. I abgree with you on the unions if you mean the bureacracy- I do think there';s a definite possibilty of having our own organisations that are fighting organisations of the working class and to some extent it may be possible to take over the union's resources- offices, equipment, our money currently abused by the bureacrats who indeed want to stifle and disorientate working class struggle

If we ever get such fighting organisations it will be extremely important to not have a bureacracy- to have decisopns made as much as possible by mass meeting and have recallable and rotated delegates for other functions


I'm defintely interested in progressing this. e-mail me at [email protected]

 

[mk12]

True - people getting together and organising at the workplace doesn't necessarily mean joining a trade union. We should use unions for our own purposes, and dispense with them when we don't need them.

 

[urbanrevolt]

Doesn't necessarily mean joining a trade union but in my opinion we should encourage joining- one for protection, two to try to get a closed shop rank and file union.,

Just shouldn't fetishise or promote union joining or union action as substituing for our own action. Workers often say what's the union doing whereas it should be what are we collectively as workers doing

Also of course not ignore people who aren't in th eunionand organise across unions and if necessaary with tohse in no unions. Still shld strongly encourage joining I think

 

[mk12]

not ignore people who aren't in the union

That's the whole workforce where I work! I couldn't really ignore them lol.

 

[In Bloom]

We may disagree though i'm not so sure!

But disagreement's fine even good as long as we don't get into pointless arguments. But open debates and discussions about the ways forward is very useful I think! I'd be tempted to say let a thousand flowers of thought bloom but of course that particular slogan has an unfortunate history!

I'm not so much concerned with minor theoretical or historical disagreements, as such, but I do think it's pretty important for any group or network to have a clear idea of exactly why it exists and what it is there for.

Networks of militants that organise for and support workplace struggles
is absolutely the key I think. I abgree with you on the unions if you mean the bureacracy- I do think there';s a definite possibilty of having our own organisations that are fighting organisations of the working class and to some extent it may be possible to take over the union's resources- offices, equipment, our money currently abused by the bureacrats who indeed want to stifle and disorientate working class struggle

See, I think this is where we're likely to disagree pretty strongly. You seem to be arguing for "reclaiming" or "recapturing" the unions, I don't really think that this is possible.

I'm defintely interested in progressing this. e-mail me at whatnextsteps[at]yahoo.com

Cool. Though you may want to edit your post to break that e-mail link, to avoid getting spammed to death.

 

[fanciful]

Yeah I don't know what he's on about either.

 

[urbanrevolt]

I'm not so much concerned with minor theoretical or historical disagreements, as such, but I do think it's pretty important for any group or network to have a clear idea of exactly why it exists and what it is there for.


See, I think this is where we're likely to disagree pretty strongly. You seem to be arguing for "reclaiming" or "recapturing" the unions, I don't really think that this is possible.

I agree that any network ought to have a clear idea of exactly why it exists.
I am in 100% agreement with 'networks of militants that organise and support workplace struggles'. If such a network took off in a particualr workplace or even across an industry then it would be a tactical practical question about how far they would use the current union or set up their own one. The important thing is building the network not worrrying baout some future disagreement- which should and indeed would be discussed out in that network.

 

[nightbreed]

As much as it is a good idea to 'network' and create elists ultimately the right idea is to actually go out there and 'do it'.
I think everyone is agreed with that. I would be keen to hear how people have organised in workplaces on u75, especially where there is no existing union organisation.
One problem I have find with groups on the left is that there are plenty of people involved in some of the public sector disputes and are quick to comment on them in their press. Unfortunately it is not common (bar one or two exceptions) to find many organising successes reported.

I am no anarchist but I found a good guide on how to organise in the workplace here

http://libcom.org/organise/workplace-organising.

Has anyone actually tried to do this or try something similar?

 

[brasicritique]

Hey, smear jockey, where are you?

says the smear stain

 

[urbanrevolt]

As much as it is a good idea to 'network' and create elists ultimately the right idea is to actually go out there and 'do it'.
I think everyone is agreed with that. I would be keen to hear how people have organised in workplaces on u75, especially where there is no existing union organisation.
One problem I have find with groups on the left is that there are plenty of people involved in some of the public sector disputes and are quick to comment on them in their press. Unfortunately it is not common (bar one or two exceptions) to find many organising successes reported.

I am no anarchist but I found a good guide on how to organise in the workplace here

http://libcom.org/organise/workplace-organising.

Has anyone actually tried to do this or try something similar?

Sure the right idea is to actually do it- and perhaps many of us are. I'm certainly trying (as people sometimes tell me!)

The point though is also to communicate it and learn lessons etc etc not a sanother talking shop but as an organising centre for action! Fine words but time wll tell whthe we can pull it off.

I'll look at the libcom thing- looks quite good.

 

[mk12]

not a sanother talking shop

I do think these are very useful though.

 

[durruti02]

You're a silly wee fucker, aren't you? You're the one who wants to shut down debate and you do it all the time with your lies and your smears. You have absolutely no room to talk. You're a hypocrite.

Here, you've even posted the message that you sent to the mods. This is the lowest thing that I've ever seen anyone do on this forum. How old are you? 12?

dear nino i posted the "report post" pm as i would not want you to think i did anything behind your back

shut down debate?? i had just replied to you! LOL .. why do you not reply to that??

 

[In Bloom]

dear nino i posted the "report post" pm as i would not want you to think i did anything behind your back

shut down debate?? i had just replied to you! LOL .. why do you not reply to that??

Is there any need to give nino the attention he so obviously craves? This thread is starting to get interesting.

 

[nino_savatte]

says the smear stain

Which is rich coming from the wank stain.

 

[nino_savatte]

Is there any need to give nino the attention he so obviously craves? This thread is starting to get interesting.

Moron.

 

[nino_savatte]

dear nino i posted the "report post" pm as i would not want you to think i did anything behind your back

shut down debate?? i had just replied to you! LOL .. why do you not reply to that??

You clearly don't understand what is meant by "debate" or "shutting down debate". You're a silly arrogant wee man who gets his knickers in a twist when people don't sign up to his ideas.

 

[mk12]

And that's the thread dead.

 

[dennisr]

And that's the thread dead.

again...

(ps why does nino seem to end up as the final 'commentator' on most of them?)

 

[durruti02]

Is there any need to give nino the attention he so obviously craves? This thread is starting to get interesting.

sorry

 

[durruti02]

And that's the thread dead.

sorry my fault .. carry on please

 

[urbanrevolt]

well I'll give one very small example..

I have been working for an agency for about two years- yesterday the school I've ben in for about 6 months finally offered me a contract.

This was partly because of lobbying by me using the head of department, the union rep and keep pushing the case that the agency rips off tyhe school, leaving both the worker and hence the school in an unstable position.

At one point they promised me a contract but then I needed a couple of days off for child rearing reasons they wthdrew the contract -which had been verbally offered and accepted- but then after more lobbying and meetings it's back on and signed this time.

The point here is that rudimentary union organisation- informal meetings in the staff room, raising it formally but in a non-conflictual way, going through other routes (departmental) as well as union and above all just talking with fellow workers about these things can work. It doesn't always I'm sure. But it has in this case.

Another talking shop may be OK if the talk is genuine discussion becuase after a while such discussion normally leads to some kinds of action.

I am quite happy to try to facilitate some kind of e-list discussion on whatnextsteps @yahoo.com at some point if enough people respond and want to do that. Not sure yet if that is the best way forward but may try to launch it in a fe days if people think it's worth while

 

[urbanrevolt]

So then any takers?