Profits up .. wages stagnate

[nino_savatte]

I'd hope that after seeing my link you'd recgnise that the CBI see immigration as a crucial part of a 'flexible labour market'. Instead you're still attacking an 'anti-immigration' spectre that does not exist on this thread.

Ah, but you're falling into the same trap as the others: this serves to support and to rationalise the anti-immigrationist position.

The dialectic?

 

[Random]

Ah, but you're falling into the same trap as the others: this serves to support and to rationalise the anti-immigrationist position.

So you're now accepting that I'm not anti-immigrant, but you're saying instead that I'm 'serving to support' such a position?

 

[butchersapron]

Ah, but you're falling into the same trap as the others: this serves to support and to rationalise the anti-immigrationist position.

The dialectic?

What's the trap nino? What is it? Are you really arguing that people shouldn't look at or comment on capitals strategic and tactical manouveres - that to do so is to 'rationalise' and therefore support those plans? If not, then what on earth is wrong with doing what random and others have done - why do you so relentlessly attack them for doing something which is in fact, essential to this debate having any informed sense to it?

Fair enough if they were using that info to support capitals plans, but they're clearly not -they're examining them for holes and vulnerabilities not because they agree with them. You must stop this stomping all over threads that you don't like accusing everyone but yourself of all sorts. It doesn't help.

What point are you making about 'the dialectic' too?

 

[nino_savatte]

So you're now accepting that I'm not anti-immigrant, but you're saying instead that I'm 'serving to support' such a position?

You have ignored the way in which "immigration" is constantly inserted by certain posters into 'discussions' such as this. Time and time again, if there is a thread begun on the issue of wages, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone(one of the usual suspects) will bring up immigration, like a cat bringing up a fur ball.

 

[nino_savatte]

What's the trap nino? What is it? Are you really arguing that people shouldn't look at or comment on capitals strategic and tactical manouveres - that to do so is to 'rationalise' and therefore support those plans? If not, then what on earth is wrong with doing what random and others have done - why do you so relentlessly attack them for doing something which is in fact, essential to this debate having any informed sense to it?

Fair enough if they were using that info to support capitals plans, but they're clearly not -they're examining them for holes and vulnerabilities not because they agree with them. You must stop this stomping all over threads that you don't like accusing everyone but yourself of all sorts. It doesn't help.

What point are you making about 'the dialectic' too?

You've deliberately missed the point for the sake of trying to score a cheap point. I see you have not mentioned immigration anywhere in this post, yet the issue have cropped up once again and you've literally come along to provide support for those who you feel are being 'unfairly attacked by me'. Debates, such as the one on this thread, tend to follow the exact same lines as all the others. Whenever someone, like me, comes along and points out that immigration and immigrants aren't entirely to blame for any of this, I get nothing but abuse...and yes, I give as good as I get. That is my right.

I would have thought that my mention of the word "dialectic" was pretty obvious.

 

[butchersapron]

I missed nothing - i made a point about the legitimate use of sources for purposes of debate on here.

And no, i don't know what your use of the word 'dialectic' above was meant to mean, that's why i aksed you to clarify. It's clear that you won't and i'm not going to pursue it - it's pointless when you're in this mood.

 

[nino_savatte]

I missed nothing - i made a point about the legitimate use of sources for purposes of debate on here.

And no, i don't know what your use of the word 'dialectic' above was meant to mean, that's why i aksed you to clarify. It's clear that you won't and i'm not going to pursue it - it's pointless when you're in this mood.

Yes you did and you do it all the time. You do it because you're a bellicose wee fucker who has a bee in his bonnet about posters who don't conform to his ideological contours. You know damned well what I meant about the dialectic. There seems to be a complete and total absence of dialectics when the issue of immigration is mentioned.

it's pointless when you're in this mood.[

Oh aye, and you're always in a good mood.

 

[Random]

Debates, such as the one on this thread, tend to follows the exact same lines as all the others. Whenever someone, like me, comes along and points out that immigration and immigrants aren't entirely to blame for any of this, I get nothing but abuse...and yes, I give as good as I get. That is my right.

Poor old nino - come along to attack people for something that they've not actually said, and all he gets is abuse.

((((nino))))

 

[nino_savatte]

Poor old nino - come along to attack people for something that they've not actually said, and all he gets is abuse.

((((nino))))

This is the sort of crap that I've come to expect from those who claim to want "sensible debate". It's like trying to discuss phenomenology with a 6 year old.

Oh, Happy New Year btw.

 

[Random]

Oh, Happy New Year btw.

Racist

 

[nino_savatte]

Racist

Comment?

 

[Sue]

I don't know what a dialectic is, never having read all them there political tomes. And to be honest, if someone can't explain it in simple terms, I always think they don't know what it means either...

 

[audiotech]

When Durutti has already said he's not anti-immigrant, not for immigration controls, and he's also a committed anti-racist, it seems a bit odd to simply deal with his points by calling him 'bonkers' and anti-immigrant.

In fact, it really just looks like an attempt to not deal with his actual points.

I didn't call durrutti "'bonkers' and anti-immigrant." ffs. My comments are general and a counter to those brits who argue for immigration controls whilst their fellow brits seek out properties in other countries to live in and to seek work from.

 

[audiotech]

I don't know what a dialectic is, never having read all them there political tomes. And to be honest, if someone can't explain it in simple terms, I always think they don't know what it means either...

You have a barney with someone and a new idea comes out of it. You then move on.

 

[butchersapron]

Can you help as to what nino meant then MC5?

 

[audiotech]

Can you help as to what nino meant then MC5?

That durrutti hasn't yet grasped the race, politics and class question and refuses stubbornly to move on?

 

[butchersapron]

What's the dialectic thing then?

 

[audiotech]

History is the product of class struggle.

 

[durruti02]

That durrutti hasn't yet grasped the race, politics and class question and refuses stubbornly to move on?

thats interesting .. in what way have i failed to grasp " the race politics and class question " ?? ..

 

[durruti02]

I was born into an immigrant community (one which saw the first riots involving race way back in the mid 60's), so I don't need a lecture on "indviduals and the community" thanks.

Assume what you like durruti02. Your assumption is wrong.

I don't live in Manchester, Devon, nor Wales (although, I've followed with interest Welsh nationalism over the years), nevertheless, I have experienced the results of property speculation in the inner city area I was born into.

My understanding is crystal clear on the matter.

MC this /your post does not reply to mine .. what was your point .. mine was that migration takes differrent forms and can provide differrent solutions for capital .. how does your post answer that???

 

[audiotech]

thats interesting .. in what way have i failed to grasp " the race politics and class question " ?? ..

Because, despite your arguments to the contrary, you still implicitly argue for the state controls on immigration and demand that workers organisations do the same.

 

[audiotech]

MC this /your post does not reply to mine .. what was your point .. mine was that migration takes differrent forms and can provide differrent solutions for capital .. how does your post answer that???

As the point you make is so banal it didn't deserve an answer.

However, to return to your question: "migration takes different forms, and can provide different solutions for capital?

Mmmm, yes it can and?

 

[durruti02]

Because, despite your arguments to the contrary, you still implicitly argue for the state controls on immigration and demand that workers organisations do the same.

mc sorry but you are either a troll or a wind up ...

you know for fact that I oppose state solutions .. i have stated this over and over

and I argue again over and over instead for a worker / trade union based campaign against cheap labour and for local sustainable employment .. a consequence of which would be less immigration

why do you always lie and make stuff up about me??

 

[butchersapron]

History is the product of class struggle.

No, you're going to have to be a bit more explicit.

 

[audiotech]

mc sorry but you are either a troll or a wind up ...

you know for fact that I oppose state solutions .. i have stated this over and over

and I argue again over and over instead for a worker / trade union based campaign against cheap labour and for local sustainable employment .. a consequence of which would be less immigration

why do you always lie and make stuff up about me??

I don't. I don't make idiotic assumptions about you either.

Demand the trade union leaders put pressure on the government. Jobs and housing for indigenous, local people you say.

Immigration leads to low pay etc, etc.

You have said these things and continue to say them.

 

[durruti02]

As the point you make is so banal it didn't deserve an answer.

However, to return to your question: "migration takes different forms, and can provide different solutions for capital?

Mmmm, yes it can and?

so in this period it is providing a key function in keeping down wages etc .. which was part of the OP incidently .. and a function however distastefull to your way of of thinking, that you have never suceeded in disproving

 

[audiotech]

No, you're going to have to be a bit more explicit.

Intermission.

 

[audiotech]

so in this period it is providing a key function in keeping down wages etc .. which was part of the OP incidently .. and a function however distastefull to your way of of thinking, that you have never suceeded in disproving

Again, that's clearly Gordon Brown's job at present.

 

[durruti02]

Again, that's clearly Gordon Brown's job at present.

yes and it is done in differrent ways .. and one of which is immigration for cheap labour which dispite all the facts you continue to deny and make out it is racist for saying so ..

 

[audiotech]

yes and it is done in differrent ways .. and one of which is immigration for cheap labour which dispite all the facts you continue to deny and make out it is racist for saying so ..

Not racist, but nonsense nonetheless.

The facts indicate a slowing of the growth rates of wages and Brown's pay policy being the important factor.