CyberRose
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Good call, and in the spirit of things, it shouldn't really be one of those cheap and nasty British beers but a crisp cold expensive EU imported beer!So you gonna be buying us all a beer?
Pro EU opinions sought
- Thread starter dessiato
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
OO yeah, a nice Belgian trappist beer would be good...
I was anti-EU until I had to study European Policy as part of my Masters a few years ago...
My view is, Multi-level governance is very complicated (some people just like to focus on localised corruption to make themselves feel clever) but the fundamental principle is good. Bring people together share prosperity and prevent large scale conflicts.
If we cut through isolationist bullshit and compare the post-War social model to other post-War regions we can see where the benefits could be.
The recent Lisbon Agenda vote in Ireland was interesting as it aligned the left-wing groups (SWP and all them) with anti-abortion Christian fundamentalists, proto-fascist nationalists and right-wing arms traders. HIGHLARIOUS.
My view is, Multi-level governance is very complicated (some people just like to focus on localised corruption to make themselves feel clever) but the fundamental principle is good. Bring people together share prosperity and prevent large scale conflicts.
If we cut through isolationist bullshit and compare the post-War social model to other post-War regions we can see where the benefits could be.
The recent Lisbon Agenda vote in Ireland was interesting as it aligned the left-wing groups (SWP and all them) with anti-abortion Christian fundamentalists, proto-fascist nationalists and right-wing arms traders. HIGHLARIOUS.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Paradoxically, although the EU supports and reinforces capitalism, the level to which the free market has gained dominance in the UK means that memebrship of the EU has forced the UK to introduce a number of laws regarding workers rights. Several more are pending, like the EU Working Time Directive, which would be a benefit to the working class if implemented.
Although i'm not particularly enamoured of the EU (I was far more supportive when I knew less about it) it's generally a more progressive regime than Westminster.
actually this is closer to my feelings on it. Not enamoured with the capitalist market agenda but it has made many regions pull up their socks on some worker, social and environmental issues.
CyberRose
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I put a bottle of that in a chilli I made last week! Definitely recommend it!
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Chimay Bleu...strong and luscious tasting. Have to mind yourself when drinking it tho, cos you can get caught out by the ABV...
CyberRose
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I think people need to refrain from attaching an ideology to the EU. Yes, at the moment, it favours free markets and all the trappings, but that's a path chosen for the EU by its members, not a path chosen by the EU for its members (if that makes sense).
The EU is simply a method of implementing policies that require a number of countries to agree to it to make it work, what those policies are depend on the current views of its members. If a majority of countries in the EU were "old Labour left", for example, then so would the EU.
One thing that is good about the EU (for us on U75 anyway), is that one trend/view in the majority of EU countries right now is one of high workers' rights and consumers' rights (which the UK would be part of the minority who are reluctant to implement such laws). So it is not true to say that the EU, right now, is only concerned with capitalist interests because all these laws and regulations directly oppose capitalism
The EU is simply a method of implementing policies that require a number of countries to agree to it to make it work, what those policies are depend on the current views of its members. If a majority of countries in the EU were "old Labour left", for example, then so would the EU.
One thing that is good about the EU (for us on U75 anyway), is that one trend/view in the majority of EU countries right now is one of high workers' rights and consumers' rights (which the UK would be part of the minority who are reluctant to implement such laws). So it is not true to say that the EU, right now, is only concerned with capitalist interests because all these laws and regulations directly oppose capitalism
!!!
beer in the chilli? have to try that. We made a big veggie chilli last night and it never would have occured to me to put beer in.
I have been asked to write a piece on the reasons why (a) the UK should stay in the EU, and (b) what the benefits of being in the EU are for the UK.
I have done a google so already have lots of sites to sift through, but I am interested in pro EU views, and not pro Europe views.
No doubt there will be a lot of argument about the pluses and minuses which I would like to hear too.
Thanks for your help. I'll probably not contribute as I am more interested in listening rather than talking on this one.
Let battle commence!
eta, If you quote 'facts' can you please substantiate them so I can check them before I go for publication?
lazy fucker.
Read your books.
Find out why the EU was developed.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Oh yes! Not too sure how much I ended up putting in as it fizzed up all over the kitchen floor when I opened it! I would recommend about 200ml - 250ml (for a good sized pan of chilli, obviously use less for smaller amounts) but it has to be dark beer (ie lager like Trappist, not ale)
I also put in coffee and cocoa, but I think next time I'm gonna try for a more coffee, less cocoa flavour
dessiato
4 years and I still cry sometimes
lazy fucker.
Read your books.
Find out why the EU was developed.
Been there, doing that.
What I'm asking for is opinions.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I find the knee-jerk reaction against the EU from a lot of lefties a bit weird and short-sighted. Sure it is too bureacratic and not accountable enough. Sure it is compromised by some of its pro-business agenda. We can all agree it needs serious democratising.
But it is the biggest 'no borders' experiment ever attempted. It has led the way in human rights legislation and in certain environmental standards (it could be much better at this but that's down to member govts being shit). It has taken on big corporations like Microsoft when no other smaller government has dared to do it. It has redistributed vast amounts of money from rich to poor areas of Europe (ask Ireland). It allows for the creation of international labour standards - how well it actually does this is another matter, but if there were more socialist governments in Europe I think it could be an incredible channel for the propagation of many socialist ideals. It is internationalist in nature, as is any meaningful socialism.
The fact that it doesn't always propagate socialist/lefty ideas is not to do with the evil nature of the EU itself. It has been reflecting the prevailing pro-business agendas of the times. It seems to me a bit stupid to condemn it as a political structure because of this. I reckon lefties should be campaigning for its democratisation - but putting an end to it, as many seem to want to, would be one of the biggest own goals in history I think.
But what do I know? I'm a liberal
But it is the biggest 'no borders' experiment ever attempted. It has led the way in human rights legislation and in certain environmental standards (it could be much better at this but that's down to member govts being shit). It has taken on big corporations like Microsoft when no other smaller government has dared to do it. It has redistributed vast amounts of money from rich to poor areas of Europe (ask Ireland). It allows for the creation of international labour standards - how well it actually does this is another matter, but if there were more socialist governments in Europe I think it could be an incredible channel for the propagation of many socialist ideals. It is internationalist in nature, as is any meaningful socialism.
The fact that it doesn't always propagate socialist/lefty ideas is not to do with the evil nature of the EU itself. It has been reflecting the prevailing pro-business agendas of the times. It seems to me a bit stupid to condemn it as a political structure because of this. I reckon lefties should be campaigning for its democratisation - but putting an end to it, as many seem to want to, would be one of the biggest own goals in history I think.
But what do I know? I'm a liberal
Been there, doing that.
What I'm asking for is opinions.
oh ok.
My opinions then.
Main one -
It's done what it set out to do. Avoid another World War thing. Which can only be good for Europe. Saving lots and lots of lives possibly/probably?
off the top of my head....
It's really changed the continent over the last few years. Perhaps made it a lot more comercial. Sunday opening etc. Negative effect for working classes in Britain with free movement of people. with the influx of cheaper labour? Widening the rich poor gap even further. Very slow footed when should act quickly - in early 90s conflict situations. Very difficult to have a common foreign policy.
and wacko thought.
I blame it and New Labour for Britain becoming excrutiatingly dull.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So, do we get to see the finished article?
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Maybe I have a different perspective to some people on this thread because i'm coming from a small nation/"region of the EU" rather than the perception of the UK being somehow subsumed or disappearing into the EU. I believe Wales has gained more recognition from being closer to the EU, than it has when our relationship was handled exclusively through London. This throws the whole idea of faceless Euro-regions out of the window because we have also got the Welsh language recognition in the EU this year thanks to Plaid MEP Jill Evans. We can speak Welsh in EU business with translation- we can't do that in Westminster.
Wales has existed insofar as we have defined ourselves as Wales, as a kind of industrial adjunct to the London/South-East centre. The creation of the Assembly coincided with us being recognised as a coherent legislative region of Europe and we've receieved funds to an extent that the UK hasn't given us. These funds are specifically for our poorest regions (in fact they're because Wales is very poor rather than because we've been succesful at anything). Many jobs in these regions rely on European structural funds, which is a welcome boost. So from a Welsh perspective the EU could be seen as positive in that regard.
I don't see a problem with the EU being dictatorial. If a directive comes out that a nation-state disagrees with then it can be resisted. For example, UKIP bandy it about that post office closures in the UK are a result of EU pro-competition/free market directives. True to an extent- but Ireland has resisted these directives in its post offices and has safeguarded them. So its possible that EU policy can be dealt with on a case by case basis.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
How come the EU average rich-poor gap is alot smaller than the UK's? Thatcher's long-term policies widened the rich-poor gap, not the EU's. Not sure about that- but I don't know for sure either.
ska invita
back on the other side
This in itself is pretty much the most incredible aspect of the EU, and pretty mind blowing to anyone over 40, especially those from the more war ravaged parts of Europe.
Of course, if Europe truly becomes a super-state (which I doubt), then its not so much no-borders, as just a very big country. Some would argue it already is a super-state, but I don't think thats fair.
Good call. I think EU has redressed international rich poor gap to a degree- but the point I was trying to make was- German companies followed by others completely fleeced the Eastern Europe market. Moving their whole businesses behind the old Iron Curtain. Making their margins a lot bigger in favour of them. Free trade was encouraged / legalised by the EU (not Thatcher!). Free movement of goods/people etc.
Therefore, a gap of sorts was lessened on the one hand, but on the other it was increased.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I find the knee-jerk reaction against the EU from a lot of lefties a bit weird and short-sighted. Sure it is too bureacratic and not accountable enough. Sure it is compromised by some of its pro-business agenda. We can all agree it needs serious democratising.
But it is the biggest 'no borders' experiment ever attempted. It has led the way in human rights legislation and in certain environmental standards (it could be much better at this but that's down to member govts being shit). It has taken on big corporations like Microsoft when no other smaller government has dared to do it. It has redistributed vast amounts of money from rich to poor areas of Europe (ask Ireland). It allows for the creation of international labour standards - how well it actually does this is another matter, but if there were more socialist governments in Europe I think it could be an incredible channel for the propagation of many socialist ideals. It is internationalist in nature, as is any meaningful socialism.
The fact that it doesn't always propagate socialist/lefty ideas is not to do with the evil nature of the EU itself. It has been reflecting the prevailing pro-business agendas of the times. It seems to me a bit stupid to condemn it as a political structure because of this. I reckon lefties should be campaigning for its democratisation - but putting an end to it, as many seem to want to, would be one of the biggest own goals in history I think.
But what do I know? I'm a liberal
OK those are fair points, at least on the surface. But anti-democratic and corrupt trumps your liberal tendancies quite easily.
As for "no borders" it aint such a miracle really. Passports and strong borders aint much over a hundred years old off the top of my head.
Migration within the EU hasnt been sponsored because of some lovey dovey fraternalism, it's been done to lower wages and the old east has been opened up for envrionmental raping.
When neoliberalism increasingly becomes law and the doublespeak is so bad that you have a "constitution that isnt a constitution" and a "president that isnt a president" its time to recognise that, despite us being liberal and anti-xenophobe, the EU is a dangerous marriage of state and corporate interests rather than anything to do with the genuine interests of European people.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Here is the thread where we went into the pros and cons ad infinitum.
Basically if you are disposed towards seeing the EU as the enemy then you will focus on its bad points, if you see it as a good thing then you will focus on the good things. Both sides continually go on about their side of the argument while ignoring the other side - dismissing it as fear-mongering or naive depending on which side you take.
Basically if you are disposed towards seeing the EU as the enemy then you will focus on its bad points, if you see it as a good thing then you will focus on the good things. Both sides continually go on about their side of the argument while ignoring the other side - dismissing it as fear-mongering or naive depending on which side you take.
Dhimmi
Half Man Half HobNob
I find the knee-jerk reaction against the EU from a lot of lefties a bit weird and short-sighted. Sure it is too bureacratic and not accountable enough. Sure it is compromised by some of its pro-business agenda. We can all agree it needs serious democratising.
But it is the biggest 'no borders' experiment ever attempted. It has led the way in human rights legislation and in certain environmental standards (it could be much better at this but that's down to member govts being shit). It has taken on big corporations like Microsoft when no other smaller government has dared to do it. It has redistributed vast amounts of money from rich to poor areas of Europe (ask Ireland). It allows for the creation of international labour standards - how well it actually does this is another matter, but if there were more socialist governments in Europe I think it could be an incredible channel for the propagation of many socialist ideals. It is internationalist in nature, as is any meaningful socialism.
The fact that it doesn't always propagate socialist/lefty ideas is not to do with the evil nature of the EU itself. It has been reflecting the prevailing pro-business agendas of the times. It seems to me a bit stupid to condemn it as a political structure because of this. I reckon lefties should be campaigning for its democratisation - but putting an end to it, as many seem to want to, would be one of the biggest own goals in history I think.
But what do I know? I'm a liberal
No offence but it's this misty-eyed neo-mysticism over a wholly corrupt, expensive and unauditable org which is part of the problem. If any individual here went for a decade without being able to get their finances signed-off as legitimate they'd be in trouble. The EU carries on regardless, suppresses any whistleblowing or dissent, and actually limits human rights* when it suits it, but rather smartly dresses those sordid little actions up as the promotion of HR. Simultaneously they hamper serious concerns and possible plan of actions by wishing to appear totally "right-on".** Double think and newspeak are not progressive.
As for the idea of reform, it's unfeasible if this were the way to go it's what folk would be doing to orgs like the BNP and the Muslim Brotherhood isn't it?
*eg: “European Parliament resolution of 13 December 2007 on combating the rise of extremism in Europe”, http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33178.htm
**http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/28/terrorism.eu
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