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"pro cook" knives, any good?

Cid said:
There are a lot of high quality steel works out there though... Steel with .6% carbon/.7% manganese is going to be much the same wherever it comes from, it's the quality of the forging/tempering, the way the handle joins to the tang and how well made the bit where the tang becomes the blade is done that you really want to watch out for.

It takes a lot of expensive ovens and time to correctly harden and temper some steels, a nickel based alloy we were playing with for edging turbine blades had to be oil quenched from 800deg c to harden it and then held at 400deg c for 72 hours and then cooled back to room temp at a rate of 20 deg c/hour, giving a total of 5 days heat treatment.

cheap knives are shite, I've lost count how many shite knives I've used that are too brittle, chunks of blade snapping off due to incorrect choice of metal and inadequate heat treating, I payed 22 quid for 3 sabatier set 5 years ago and it's great.
 
pembrokestephen said:
Quite the charmer, aren't you?

I would have thought like you once - though would probably have been slightly more civilised in my expression of those views - only, as I said, my experience taught me otherwise.

I'm very glad that your 3 quid ASDA knife is sufficient for your purposes - I am sure it makes you very happy. I managed quite nicely for years on nasty, cheap knives, and - like you - never knew the difference. But when I started cooking a bit more seriously, and when I had the opportunity to experience a decent knife, and learned how to use it properly, I did learn the difference.

Maybe, one day, that will happen to you. If it does, then I hope you at least have the humility to look back and feel slightly embarrassed at the sneering tone you've taken here. If it doesn't, then I hope you carry on being happy with your 3 quid ASDA knife. That's all that matters, in the end.

If you think there's anything uncivilised in anything I've said you must be a rather hyper-sensitive petal. Which I find quite staggering given that on the evidence of this thread alone you could give a masterclass in sneering and putting quite ludicrous words in the mouths of others etc.

Anyway, I'm not interested in that shit, the bottom line is, what does your knife do that mine doesn't?
 
due to technical difficulties, previous piccy does not appear on this thread. so here we go again:

opinel.jpg
 
pembrokestephen said:
£70 for 9 knives?

Almost certainly complete rubbish.

Save the £70, and use it to buy TWO (count 'em, two) decent knives - a good-size cook's knife and a little job for paring and fine veggie work.


normal retail price for the set is about 250.. lets just say these are bit on the warm side
 
From the ones I've used:

Ikea = shite
Tesco = shite
Asda = shite
Sabatier = loads better than the others, but don't feel right in the hands

Not really used any others yet. I don't own any knives personally at the moment.
 
Xanadu said:
From the ones I've used:

Ikea = shite
Tesco = shite
Asda = shite
Sabatier = loads better than the others, but don't feel right in the hands

Not really used any others yet. I don't own any knives personally at the moment.

Shite in what way? What did they not do that the expensive ones did? I'm at a loss as to how spending 15-20 times more on a knife produces better food.
 
Spion said:
All steel is carbon steel. That's what steel is - an alloy of carbon and iron

When people say carbon steel they're generally refering to medium or plain carbon steel. At any rate carbon steel refers to the set of steels whose important ingredients are iron and carbon (manganese, silicon and copper are also allowed). Stainless steel is completely different, containing a minimum of 10% chromium.
 
Spion said:
Anyway, I'm not interested in that shit, the bottom line is, what does your knife do that mine doesn't?
If you need to ask, especially since most of the answers were already given before you did, then you're probably not going to understand (or accept) the them in any case.
 
Spion said:
I'm not a chef. And I'm not sure any of the people here who've gone on about spending 50+ quid on a knife are are either.

I didn't say there wasn't a difference but for the home user, rather than a professional using the thing 8 hours a day, the difference is negligible.

If you're a professional then you need the extra quality. If you use it once or twice a day at a push then I think you've paid more than you need.

All steel is carbon steel. That's what steel is - an alloy of carbon and iron

The bottom line, is my knife cuts cleanly and gets a sharpening once a month. It cuts well, feels well balanced and produces good results. I really can't see why I need to spend 15 times more than I did, but if you did then I can see why you need to justify it.

I don't know if anyone else is a chef, but I do know you're coming across like a bit of stirworthy faux-controversialist

Yes, all steel knives knives contain carbon, but in basic culinary terms carbon steel(soft iron) blades rust, whereas stainless steel based knives tend to be harder to sharpen and don't rust.

Bully for you that you can cope with your blades, but I'd argue that it's home cooks who tend to benefit most from some of the more expensive brands. .TBH a decent chef has the technique and wherewithall to chop through things with comparatively cheapish blades (Victorinox and below) and the knowledge and ability to keep sharpening them very regularly - as often as every 50 cuts or so really. Whereas your average home cook rarely sharpens their knives and their dodgy technique could lead to a blunter blade being forced, raising the risk of cutting themselves.

Try de-boning fish quickly with a cheap blade, or scoring crackling properly. I could probably manage with cheaper blades a lot of the time, but it'd be a lot less pleasant and more time consuming, particularly when chopping huge quantities.
 
Spion said:
Shite in what way? What did they not do that the expensive ones did? I'm at a loss as to how spending 15-20 times more on a knife produces better food.

Well, making a simple tomato salad. The shite knives used to mush the tomato after 2 weeks of use (2 weeks since sharpening). This was when I was a student cooking daily.
 
Xanadu said:
Well, making a simple tomato salad. The shite knives used to mush the tomato after 2 weeks of use (2 weeks since sharpening). This was when I was a student cooking daily.

(ahem) use a serrated blade, even a cheap one, for tomatoes and life should get much easier.

Even better if the knife has cut-out sides, which stops the tomatoes sticking to the blade.
 
pembrokestephen said:
If you need to ask, especially since most of the answers were already given before you did, then you're probably not going to understand (or accept) the them in any case.

I've read back through the thread and all you've said is things like, 'oh, you'd know if you'd used one'. You have failed to give me one good reason why I should spend 15-20 times more on a knife.

Once again, I'm not a chef, I don't cook for 8 hours a day, my knife is sharpened regularly and cuts well in general use. I don't dispute that expensive knives are better made of better quality steel that takes a sharper edge that maybe stays sharper longer. What I'm saying is that for people cooking in the home the extra outlay is not worth it and to say you simply must have these or those 50+ quid knives is snobbery.
 
tarannau said:
(ahem) use a serrated blade, even a cheap one, for tomatoes and life should get much easier.

Even better if the knife has cut-out sides, which stops the tomatoes sticking to the blade.
But then the skin doesn't look as nice.
 
tarannau said:
I don't know if anyone else is a chef, but I do know you're coming across like a bit of stirworthy faux-controversialist
Ah, so if I disagree - sorry, to be more accurate, I am not convinced by you - I must be arguing falsely. What a pathetic argument.
 
Xanadu said:
But then the skin doesn't look as nice.

Sharpen your knife more frequently than every two weeks, perhaps? Or get one of those good 3 quid cooks knives from Asda. They're ace :D
 
field report on the knives from lunchtime activity

they are quite comfy in the hand and cut bread and chicken breasts nicely
 
Spion said:
Sharpen your knife more frequently than every two weeks, perhaps? Or get one of those good 3 quid cooks knives from Asda. They're ace :D

If you sharpen a cheap knife to a good cutting edge frequently then the blade will be half the size in a few years... It's about balance too of course, cheap knives don't tend to lend themselves well to a proper cutting motion (kinda rocking the knife back and forth).

Xanadu said:
:D

I hated my massive Asda knife, but not enough to spend my student loan on a nice new one :p

Couldn't agree more, I'm not going to go and spend £150 on 3 good knives... The absolutely shit one we have here may piss me off (needs sharpening every couple of days as there are 5 of us using it) but I can't afford decent knives and there're other things I'd spend my cash on first anyway. Just means I have to visit my mum's house for my knife fix... :p
 
There's a world of difference between a 20 quid and a 3 quid knife.

But the difference between a 20 and a 50 quid knife is negligable. The only reason to buy a fifty quid knife is (a) you're a chef or (b) you've got a 'quality' stuff fetish.

You can pick up 20 quid knives for a tenner this time of year, so my adivce is to get one if you don't already have one and walk straight past the fancy designer shit.
 
Spion said:
I've read back through the thread and all you've said is things like, 'oh, you'd know if you'd used one'. You have failed to give me one good reason why I should spend 15-20 times more on a knife.
*sigh*

Right. You'll only accuse me of being subjective, but just to show willing...

If you have a good knife - that probably means anything from a Sabatier upwards - you'll quickly notice two things about it.

The first is that it will take an edge in a way that cheaper knives just can't manage. I have a £20 John Lewis Sabatier-style knife (in stainless steel). I can sharpen that until the cows come home, but the sharpness of that knife is always a long way off what I'd achieve when I sharpen the £40 Global. That's just how it is - it'll be to do with the type and quality of the steel. If I only had the JL knife, I'd probably be quite happy with it, but I'd probably carry a lot more scars on my hands where it slips off stuff when I'm cutting.

The second is how well it holds that edge. The other thing about the JL knife is that it needs resharpening pretty much every time I use it: the edge I get on it - such as it is - doesn't last any time at all. Sure, if I want to brandish the knife around like an axe, it does the trick. The Global (or, for that matter, my little plastic-handled Victorinox veggie knife) will hold the edge for a good week or two's regular use, especially now I've prevailed on Ms Pembrokestephen to get rid of the glass chopping board :eek: .

The difference between using a second-rate knife and a really good one, in my view, is the difference between watching carefully that the knife isn't going to skid off whatever you're cutting, or needs pressure to get it to cut, and knowing that when you put that blade on something and move it, it's going to cut exactly where you want it to, not slip half a centimetre into the side of your finger and THEN start cutting. There's a "bite" that a decent edged knife gives you when you start to cut that you just don't get with an inferior one. When you're chopping 4 onions, or want a solid blade to slap down just so on your garlic to loosen the skin, you don't want to be faffing around with some plastic-handled lightweight thing that can't actually take an edge.

Spion said:
Once again, I'm not a chef, I don't cook for 8 hours a day, my knife is sharpened regularly and cuts well in general use. I don't dispute that expensive knives are better made of better quality steel that takes a sharper edge that maybe stays sharper longer. What I'm saying is that for people cooking in the home the extra outlay is not worth it and to say you simply must have these or those 50+ quid knives is snobbery.

I'm not a professional chef, either, far from it. I don't cook for 8 hours a day. I cook for fun, and because I like food and its preparation. And, for me, part of the fun of that experience is having tools I can enjoy using. That means knives that cut reliably, feel comfortable (well, actually, the Global isn't "comfortable", but it's balanced and a good weight), and perhaps even look good. It's my money I spend when I buy those tools, whether it's knives or saucepans, and I'm happy to spend it. I know that, with the level of use I give it, that Global will outlast me. I'm happy that that's the case. It's not snobbery - it's the enjoyment of a bit of quality.

If you're happy with your three quid ASDA knife then that's great, and I really don't know why you're reacting so defensively to those of us who are saying that we like decent (okok, expensive) cutlery. Maybe you have different priorities: perhaps your sound system is out of this world, or maybe you collect fine art. Good luck to you: I don't have an out of this world sound system, or any fine art, but I do like nice cooking equipment.

And slinging round unfounded accusations of snobbery isn't exactly live-and-let-live, is it?
 
Spion said:
Sharpen your knife more frequently than every two weeks, perhaps? Or get one of those good 3 quid cooks knives from Asda. They're ace :D
He's talking about serrated blades, which aren't generally sharpenable.
 
Pingu said:
field report on the knives from lunchtime activity

they are quite comfy in the hand and cut bread and chicken breasts nicely
Feh, stop bothering us with your boring practical factual details, we're having a stropfest here!

:D
 
Cid said:
Couldn't agree more, I'm not going to go and spend £150 on 3 good knives... The absolutely shit one we have here may piss me off (needs sharpening every couple of days as there are 5 of us using it) but I can't afford decent knives and there're other things I'd spend my cash on first anyway. Just means I have to visit my mum's house for my knife fix... :p

psycho-shower-knife-attack.jpg


I'll be trying out some knives when I get my own kitchen, but for now, I'm just going to use what's there.
 
Spion said:
it's a well-known clothing and food store in the UK, which was putting out 'food porn' TV adverts in the run-up to Xmas. What country are you in?

Ah, you mean Marks and Spencer.
I thought you were referring to some bunch of sado-masochists. :p
 
pembrokestephen said:
The first is that it will take an edge in a way that cheaper knives just can't manage. I have a £20 John Lewis Sabatier-style knife (in stainless steel). I can sharpen that until the cows come home, but the sharpness of that knife is always a long way off what I'd achieve when I sharpen the £40 Global. That's just how it is - it'll be to do with the type and quality of the steel.

SS is a poor choice of material for knives. Brittle and not good at holding its edge. A much cheaper carbon steel blade would probably be better.

pembrokestephen said:
If I only had the JL knife, I'd probably be quite happy with it, but I'd probably carry a lot more scars on my hands where it slips off stuff when I'm cutting.
I've never had this trouble, tbh, even with the most horrible cheapy knives you sort of adjust technique to avoid sudden slips, I find

pembrokestephen said:
The second is how well it holds that edge. The other thing about the JL knife is that it needs resharpening pretty much every time I use it: the edge I get on it - such as it is - doesn't last any time at all. .
See above on SS blades

pembrokestephen said:
especially now I've prevailed on Ms Pembrokestephen to get rid of the glass chopping board :eek: ..
Appalling things. One thing that's guaranteed to blunt any knife

pembrokestephen said:
There's a "bite" that a decent edged knife gives you when you start to cut that you just don't get with an inferior one.
IE, it's sharp. I agree, a knife has to be sharp

pembrokestephen said:
you don't want to be faffing around with some plastic-handled lightweight thing that can't actually take an edge..
No, of course not, but this cheapy I've been banging on about is sturdy, wooden handled and takes an edge. Maybe it won't last 5 years but that's something I'm prepared to live with


pembrokestephen said:
I'm If you're happy with your three quid ASDA knife then that's great, and I really don't know why you're reacting so defensively to those of us who are saying that we like decent (okok, expensive) cutlery. Maybe you have different priorities: perhaps your sound system is out of this world, or maybe you collect fine art. Good luck to you: I don't have an out of this world sound system, or any fine art, but I do like nice cooking equipment..
Fair enough. I can't argue with the fact you *like* them. I was only reacting to the assertions that they are in any way practically better for the home cook than a knife which is 10 times cheaper but kept sharp. And I'm not talking about plastic handled ultra-cheap pressed-steel shite but an averagely well made carbon steel knife with a good handle that costs only a few quid.


pembrokestephen said:
And slinging round unfounded accusations of snobbery isn't exactly live-and-let-live, is it?
Well, tbh, some of your earlier comments do come across that way. All, 'I used to be like you until I paid 700 quid for a Japanese Emperor-quality Sushi Katana'.

Anyway, how's your homebrew? I bought a Burco and am soon going to get a Porter on the go
 
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