Pro-Choice/Anti-Widdy Demonstration: Cardiff, March 4th

[El Jefe]

How about them? For a start Pro-Life Pavement Counsellors who stand outside abortion clinics try to talk women out of having abortions and tell them that Jesus loves them, harmless stuff like that. They DO NOT abuse women. Typical Pro-abortion smear tactic, belonging with the other bully boy weapons in their armoury: intimidation and harassment.

I've seen it happen with my own eyes. You're full of shit

 

[llantwit]

I've seen it happen with my own eyes. You're full of shit

I've seen it, too. And I know women who've experienced it.
"Pro-life pavement counsellors" my big wrinkly white arse.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

That's a great photo

I prefer this one..

 

[Col_Buendia]

Jesus Garnett, yr one up tight little 'miss'. I hope someone pops yr cherry soon so u can find a more useful outlet for yr repressed energies. And don't forget to use a condom

 

[spanglechick]

i don't get this - does the fact that someone has reached the age of 65 (and also passed the age where there's any danger of them being in the situation of an unwanted preganancy) mean that they are exempt from being verbally had a go at if they insist on spouting their offensive, anti-choice bullshit?

being older doesn't stop you from being a nasty piece of work, and it shouldn't make you think you can get away with saying whatever you like. My parents are both pensioners - my dad's in his seventies and if he's talking bollocks i'll tell him - not treat him with kid gloves.

 

[Geri]

Very true. I got assaulted by an old woman once when I was protesting outside a circus.

 

[Cakes]

... people find the idea of tearing a harmless, helpless foetus limb from limb pretty fucking disgusting, particularly when strenuous efforts may be being made in the same premises to save the life of a neonate of similar age.

This is absolutely true, as I have already said, most people find the idea of late abortion abhorant. Thank goodness that it is such a rare occurance. The people I feel most sorry for are those women who would give anything to be continuing a healthy pregnancy to term, but have to go through a late abortion instead. Must be heart-breaking, I know it can take years to recover from the distress.

I worry if their distress is increased by all those gorey photos and vicious accusations made by people like Passion for Life?

Neither do I pay any mind to the kind of middle-aged male wierdos who get a sick thrill from terrorising old aged pensioners going about their lawful business going to a public meeting.

Me neither! That would be a completely inappropriate and unneccesary thing to do.

Glad that kind of thing didn't occur at the peaceful picket I went to in Cardiff last week.

 

[Garnet]

Fantastic to see that Cardiff PR have now recruited Llantwit as well as controlling the actions of the entire demo as alleged by both Garnet and the Cardiff Mind the Gap website.
There is only one problem with Garnet's observations. He wasn't there. He is basing everything he says on an article at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com and the accompanying video.
The arrest took place well before anyone arrived for the meeting.
No-one was obstructed from going to the meeting. The entrance was clear at all times.
The clientele for the meeting were both male and female, old and young.
Another account of the demo is at http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/03/last_nights_pro

There are quite a few things wrong with Penderyn's observations. For example, he can't read.

Garnet is a she.

And no, she is not basing everything she says merely on an article at Cardiff PR.

Though the article is illuminating for making clear the effect the demonstration was intended to have:

"Over a hundred pro-choice demonstrators packed the pavement outside the City Temple to give the anti-abortionists a reception they will not forget in a hurry."

For boasting that the protestors would not move to the other side of the street.

"[The police] sprang a demand that the the protest take place on the other side of the road ... protesters refused."

If the intention of the demonstration was just that and not also intimidation of the meeting attendees, they would have complied with the request. They didn't because it wasn't.

And for bragging, among other feats of big badass derring do, that the invincible PR foghorn would never be allowed into the hands of an anti-abortionist who was "given short shrift". I bet he was, free speech not being something Cardiff PR is used to.

Hence his muddled, self-contradicting and peevish blog reply.

He issues flatulent abuse about pro-lifers but then sanctimoniously informs the world that comments involving personal insult and misinformation are normally barred.

He posts a report about the demo on his blog. But wait! His blog's reportage and accompanying video can't be relied upon by his hapless reader as an accurate account of events.

Cardiff PR is proud of its role in building the demo but isn't responsible for everything which happened on it, though there's nothing he wants to dissociate himself from anyway.

There was no attempt to stop attendees from getting into the meeting but protesters who packed the pavement refused to move over to the other side of the road.

The megaphone was used to make speeches not shout slogans, though abusive slogans were chanted.

Free contraception and universal sex education are desperately needed to cut down on the number of abortions, though we already have those things and the number of abortions has gone up not down.

Confused? Of course he is. But then given the WP/PR's habit of changing their minds who could possibly be surprised?

 

[Col_Buendia]

What a dick.

Let's follow your logic, Aurelia/Garnet:

1. OAPs (people without reproductive capabilities) are entitled to decide what happens to those with the reproductive capabilities to carry a pregnancy.
2. Therefore, others without reproductive capabilities must also be entitled to decide for those who carry pregnancies.
3. Therefore men, who can't carry a pregnancy, are entitled to decide for women what should happen to their own bodies.

Nice move. Back to square one. Good luck with popping your cherry - maybe you can get a cuddle from the confused fuckwit who scribbles the Mind The Gap blog - someone so scared of debate that s/he closes the comments on it!

 

[Dic Penderyn]

statement from woman arrested at City Temple Protest

Anyone on here witness the arrest?

Some of you will know that I was arrested outside the City Temple on the 4th May during a protest against a rally held by Anne Widdecombe. This was an unlawful arrest, vindictive, vengeful and ultimately brutal. Already a couple of people have come forward offering to be witnesses to the arrest, and I am very grateful to them, but there was a large crowd gathered there at the time and there may be others who also witnessed events. Please pass on this statement and witness request to any individuals or groups who were present.

First of all it was great to see so many turn up to the protest outside Anne Widdecombe's anti-abortion rally . The right to safe abortion was not easily won, and came only after the unnecessary deaths and terrible suffering of thousands of women in back-street abortions. I can't believe that any woman would want to go back to that.

I arrived at the City Temple at around 6.30pm. I chatted to some friends, and then when the pro-life audience arrived I took photographs as they filed through the noisy and chanting crowd. I want to make it absolutely and totally clear that I did nothing unlawful, nor did I do anything to provoke or antagonise the situation. I had my head in 'journalist-mode'. I wanted only to document what was going on.

Once Anne Widdecombes audience had filed in and things had quietened down, I lowered my camera and went to speak to a couple of friends. It was then that I was arrested. My only recollection is that a police officer pushed past, turned around and then arrested me for obstruction. His story is that I used my elbow to deliberately obstruct his progress as he was moving through the crowd in order to deal with a group of people who were allegedly smoking cannabis. The arrest took place just in front of the doors of the City Temple, in the centre of the crowd. It is this part of the arrest that I very much need witnesses for.

As protesters attempted to intervene in the arrest I moved to the edge of the crowd, just outside the Westgate pub. That is where I was physically restrained, handcuffed and taken to a police van.
A little later, the arresting officer was overheard speaking to another officer about my arrest, allegedly stating that he 'just wanted her out of the way'. Again, if anyone is a witness to any of this, it would be great to hear from them.

On arrival at Fairwater I was bundled straight into a cell and informed that as a result of a history of self harm and mental illness I was going to be stripped of all my clothing. At this point I had not even given my name. I told them that they had made a mistake, that I had no history of self harm or any other mental health problem. But it made no difference, they insisted that they had already done a check on the Police National Computer, and it showed that I was a suicide risk. (The custody record shows that no such check took place). They took me to the ground and used restraints and what they quite accurately call 'pain compliance' techniques in order to rip my clothes off me, including my underwear. During this time, and while I remained restrained on the floor completely naked from the waist down, one of the police officers shouted repeatedly that I was a 'fucking bitch', that this would 'teach me' and that I was 'making her day'.

The background to all of this is that I am, I think it is fair to say, a fairly prominent individual in 'Fitwatch'. For those who don't know, Fitwatch is a website and loose group of people who monitor the activities of Forward Intelligence Teams (FIT). FIT are police officers who compile data on individuals involved in protest and political activity, and who regularly harass and intimidate organisers of protest events, all under the guise of 'preserving public order'. There have been two court cases recently in which the police have been challenged to prove the lawfulness of their data gathering activities. On both occasions they have been unable to do so, and the legal actions have led to some very awkward questions being asked. In London Fitwatch is organising activists to take action to protect themselves from the intrusiveness of overt police surveillance. CO11, the public order unit of the Metropolitan Police and home of the FITs, is less than amused.

I did not know the police officers involved in policing the protest at the City Temple on the 4th of March, but clearly they knew who I was. They didn't even need me to tell them my name. Predominantly in recent years my political activity has been focused on events in London, yet I was obviously in the forefront of officers minds that night in Cardiff. I do not want to get overly conspiratorial or paranoid about this, but clearly there are a number of questions here.

I have initiated a police complaint on the following grounds:

That I was arrested without lawful reasons. I wish to find out who made the decision to arrest, on what information, and for what reasons.
That I was forceably strip searched without justification, and that this was unlawful. Again, I'd very much like to learn the basis on which that decision was taken.
I was held at Fairwater police station for a total of 21 hours. The legal limit is 24. Even after such a long time they were unable to make a decision on charging and I was bailed to return on Friday (14th March). I was then charged with obstructing a police officer outside the City Temple, and assaulting a police officer in a police cell while she was attempting to remove my clothing.

I really do need to challenge this. If you are a witness, or you know someone who may be a witness, or who may have some pictures taken on the night, please get in touch. This has been a particularly difficult statement to write, and it has been far from easy to decide to go public with what happened to me, particularly the strip search. I would be very grateful for any help.

Many thanks

Val

PS My initial plea hearing will be held on 28th March at 9am at Cardiff Magistrates Court. All support welcome.

 

[untethered]

This is absolutely true, as I have already said, most people find the idea of late abortion abhorant. Thank goodness that it is such a rare occurance. The people I feel most sorry for are those women who would give anything to be continuing a healthy pregnancy to term, but have to go through a late abortion instead. Must be heart-breaking, I know it can take years to recover from the distress.

I worry if their distress is increased by all those gorey photos and vicious accusations made by people like Passion for Life?

What's the difference between killing unborn disabled children and born ones?

The idea that people who "have to go through a late abortion" find abhorrent is that rather than having a healthy, able, "normal" child they might have to have a disabled one.

So they kill it.

 

[fogbat]

 

[llantwit]

Traumatised for life.

 

[Cakes]

What's the difference between killing unborn disabled children and born ones?

Well for a start killing children is illegal, where as abortion is legal under certain circumstances.

I don't think there is any moral difference between terminating a disabled fetus or an abled-bodied fetus. Neither does the largest democratic disabled people's campaign group in the UK, which is strongly pro-choice.

People shouldn't use disability as a political tool to attack women's rights. It's offensive and illogical.

 

[untethered]

Well for a start killing children is illegal, where as abortion is legal under certain circumstances.

I wasn't talking about legality. I'm sure you realise that.

I don't think there is any moral difference between terminating a disabled fetus or an abled-bodied fetus. Neither does the largest democratic disabled people's campaign group in the UK, which is strongly pro-choice.

"Terminating"? Why not just say "killing"?

Anyway, you've made your position entirely clear. Able-bodied and disabled unborn children should have an equal likelihood of being killed by their mothers.

People shouldn't use disability as a political tool to attack women's rights. It's offensive and illogical.

Perhaps not as offensive as killing unborn children for matters of social convenience.

Approximately half of unborn children are "women" too. Don't they get rights as well?

 

[Cakes]

Untethered, I think you use of terminology is very interesting but prefer to stick to the conventional terms used in law and medicine.

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, which is very different from the killing of a baby or child. Although you may personally feel that they amount to the same thing, this is just your opinion and is not shared by many other people.

 

[untethered]

Untethered, I think you use of terminology is very interesting but prefer to stick to the conventional terms used in law and medicine.

Why? So you can continue to fudge the moral issues? No thanks.

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, which is very different from the killing of a baby or child. Although you may personally feel that they amount to the same thing, this is just your opinion and is not shared by many other people.

While you may choose to adopt specialist terminology that deals with this specific case, the general one is still killing. Something that is alive is caused to no longer be alive. If that isn't killing, what is?

Why is it so hard for you to be intellectually honest about this matter? It's no different in principle from referring to civilian casualties in war as collateral damage.

You can obfuscate you like, but you promote the killing of children.

 

[Yossarian]

You can obfuscate you like, but you promote the killing of children.

Only in the same way that wankers wipe out millions of lives on a regular basis...

 

[untethered]

Only in the same way that w- wipe out millions of lives on a regular basis...

Go back to school.

 

[Yossarian]

You felt the need to censor the word "wankers" from my post while quoting it?

Have you ever felt that your morality is a little out of step with everybody else's? As someone who calls themselves a patriot, you ought to move further towards embracing the values of your countrymen.

 

[osterberg]

Anyone on here witness the arrest?

This has got lost a bit with Untethered's ranting.
It's pretty shocking sinister stuff and anyone who can get down to the courts on the 28th should.
Can we be kept up to date with developments.?

 

[untethered]

Have you ever felt that your morality is a little out of step with everybody else's? As someone who calls themselves a patriot, you ought to move further towards embracing the values of your countrymen.

I decide each issue on its merits. Do you have a better idea?

 

[Cakes]

... you promote the killing of children.

No I don't. I don't promote abortion either.

What I promote is the right for us all be able to make our own free and informed decisions about abortion, to be able to decide for ourselves whether it is right or wrong.

 

[Cakes]

This has got lost a bit with Untethered's ranting.

Sorry! Will desist from derailing!

 

[Yossarian]

I decide each issue on its merits. Do you have a better idea?

I guess a better idea would be to cease derailing this thread about local issues in Wales by discussing the wider issue with you, even by means of jeering and piss-taking - if I really wanted to discuss the abortion issue from the level you're approaching it from, I'd be checking out the message boards at www.catholic.com.

 

[untethered]

No I don't. I don't promote abortion either.

What I promote is the right for us all be able to make our own free and informed decisions about abortion, to be able to decide for ourselves whether it is right or wrong.

Wriggle wriggle wriggle.

So that's predicated on the idea that both choices are equally acceptable.

If, say, you wanted to give people a similar choice about having sex with children, would it be reasonable to conclude that a) you're comfortable with people having sex with children and b) you're promoting sex with children?

 

[Garnet]

when the pro-life audience arrived I took photographs as they filed through the noisy and chanting crowd.

Yet again the nature of the demonstration, which meeting attendees had to pick their way through, is clearly described.

Remember that the demonstrators refused to move to the other side of the road.

I want to make it absolutely and totally clear that I did nothing ... to provoke or antagonise the situation.

Aside, of course, from being part of a "noisy and chanting" demonstration which refused to demonstrate several metres away from meeting attendees, but crowded right up to the entrance so meeting attendees had to brave a gauntlet of "militant" protesters chanting inflammatory slogans. And to cap it all there was also Redwatch-style photographing of meeting attendees. No wonder they were terrified. No wonder Penderyn/<removed> found it all so hugely enjoyable.

 

[Garnet]

Untethered, I think you use of terminology is very interesting but prefer to stick to the conventional terms used in law and medicine.

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, which is very different from the killing of a baby or child. Although you may personally feel that they amount to the same thing, this is just your opinion and is not shared by many other people.

Really? Does Cakes deny that the termination of a pregnancy involves the deliberate destruction of a living foetus? Is he suggesting that there is such a thing as a pregnancy without a living foetus? What on earth does he think happens during spontaneous abortion? Is he seriously suggesting that pregnant women who feel their foetuses kick inside them are delusional? Can he suggest any clinical reason for a woman having an induced abortion when there is no foetus living within her?

Engaged in such a phenomenal flight from reality, no wonder Cakes finds pictures of aborted foetuses so mind-rocking. He's so ignorant of basic human biology that he doesn't even know - or can't bear to admit - that pregnant women have foetuses living and growing in their wombs.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It is not acceptable here to post real names of posters without their explicit consent; kindly refrain from doing so.

 

[llantwit]

Really? Does Cakes deny that the termination of a pregnancy involves the deliberate destruction of a living foetus? Is he suggesting that there is such a thing as a pregnancy without a living foetus? What on earth does he think happens during spontaneous abortion? Is he seriously suggesting that pregnant women who feel their foetuses kick inside them are delusional? Can he suggest any clinical reason for a woman having an induced abortion when there is no foetus living within her?

Engaged in such a phenomenal flight from reality, no wonder Cakes finds pictures of aborted foetuses so mind-rocking. He's so ignorant of basic human biology that he doesn't even know - or can't bear to admit - that pregnant women have foetuses living and growing in their wombs.

Yes, you won the argument. Well done. You have persuaded us that we are all murderous paedophiles with the sheer force of reason and logical argument. That must feel good. Now bugger off.