Pro/Anti Israelis American Media?

[astronaut]

Why does a political cartoon have to be "pro-Israeli"? Is that because it is your desire to close down all forms of discourse that you don't like? Or is it because you say so?

Of course it is.

I find this post extremely perplexing.

First you said that 3 anti-Israel cartoons were actually pro-Israel.

Then you said that they are political cartoons, with the obvious implication that political cartoons are either pro-Israel or neutral.

Now you post this?

I'm sorry, but your behavior is very confusing - I don't know if you are doing it on purpose or if that is you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not trolling at all. Showing US media cartoons that are anti-Israel. How is that trolling?

No, you're trolling and you're also pretending that you don't know what trolling is. You're not worth the time or the effort; you're a waste of space; a cheap troll who's out to cause trouble.

Anyone who claims that the word "shyster" is anti-Semitic and then claims that certain cartoons are "anti-Israeli" cannot, under any circumstances, be treated seriously.

 

[nino_savatte]

I find this post extremely perplexing.

First you said that 3 anti-Israel cartoons were actually pro-Israel.

Then you said that they are political cartoons, with the obvious implication that political cartoons are either pro-Israel or neutral.

Now you post this?

I'm sorry, but your behavior is very confusing - I don't know if you are doing it on purpose or if that is you.

I said nothing of the kind and this post simply proves that you're nothing but a cheap wee troll...and a pathetic liar.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is what I said in reply to your assertion that the cartoons were "anti-Israeli"

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Quote:
Originally Posted by astronaut
Without getting into an argument, I suggest you look at them a little closer. Or would you prefer an explanation?

I've already looked at them and I can see nothing that suggests to me that they are "anti-Israeli". I would suggest that you are reading things into the cartoons that aren't actually there for the sake of ideology.

Now then what was it you were saying?

 

[astronaut]

I said nothing of the kind and this post simply proves that you're nothing but a cheap wee troll...and a pathetic liar.

They are only "anti-Israeli" in your mind.

I can see nothing that suggests to me that they are "anti-Israeli".

They're political cartoons for fucks sake!

.

 

[angry bob]

They are political cartoons. You may not like what you see but that's your interpretation. What you and your friend, astronaut want, is freedom of the press so long as it conforms with your ideology and that of the state. Indeed, your idea of the poolitical cartoon appears to be one that asks no questions, makes no statements and one that unquestioningly supports the dominant ideology.

Come on now. What do you know about my ideology? You are the one making assumptions and seeing what you want to see.

The political cartoon in question is making a point. As is generally the case.

And the point is critcal of Aeriel Sharon.

Now why dont you try and explain why it isnt ... or are you just trolling?

 

[angry bob]

No, you're trolling and you're also pretending that you don't know what trolling is. You're not worth the time or the effort; you're a waste of space; a cheap troll who's out to cause trouble.
.

Jeez ... the thread was started to with the express purpose of showing political cartoons that were pro- or anti- the Israeli position as one means of evaluating any pro- anti- bias in the US media.

How the hell is astronaut trolling?

You are the one not engaging in the discussion and being inflammatory.

 

[Genghis Cohen]

Recently on a forum, Rachamin suggested that the American Media was not pro-Israelis, far from it, actually it was pro-Palestinian.

He doesnt genuinely believe that, though he'll swear blind that he does.

Its the same as some sociopathic republican blathering on about the 'liberal media,' they dont really believe that the subsidiaries of enormous corporations, (at least one of which has a vested fiscal interest in as much war as possible) are 'liberal,' a child could see thats nigh on impossible.

What he and they are trying to do is re-establish what constitutes being 'anti-israeli' or 'liberal' if cheerleading for a rogue state that regularly operates well outside the law is being 'against' it, how far would you have to go before you're being 'even handed' towards it ?

 

[nino_savatte]

Jeez ... the thread was started to with the express purpose of showing political cartoons that were pro- or anti- the Israeli position as one means of evaluating any pro- anti- bias in the US media.

How the hell is astronaut trolling?

You are the one not engaging in the discussion and being inflammatory.

It's easy to accuse me of those things but you can't hide the fact that you're pursuing an agenda which is identical to the one pursued by the US right:which says that there is a "liberal bias in the media".

 

[angry bob]

He doesnt genuinely believe that, though he'll swear blind that he does.

Its the same as some sociopathic republican blathering on about the 'liberal media,' they dont really believe that the subsidiaries of enormous corporations, (at least one of which has a vested fiscal interest in as much war as possible) are 'liberal,' a child could see thats nigh on impossible.

What he and they are trying to do is re-establish what constitutes being 'anti-israeli' or 'liberal' if cheerleading for a rogue state that regularly operates well outside the law is being 'against' it, how far would you have to go before you're being 'even handed' towards it ?

I think that the US media does, on the whole, show a significant bias in favor of Israel. For example, atrocities commited by Palestinians nearly always make the news, yet we rarely hear anything about Israeli atrocities.

That said, this does not apply completely, and there are many journalists who are far more even handed.

 

[nino_savatte]

Come on now. What do you know about my ideology? You are the one making assumptions and seeing what you want to see.

The political cartoon in question is making a point. As is generally the case.

And the point is critcal of Aeriel Sharon.

Now why dont you try and explain why it isnt ... or are you just trolling?

What do I know about your ideology? Well, let's just say I've read your posts elsewhere on Urban and they tell me that you're right wing and also American.

If you accept that these cartoons are "anti-Israeli" then it would be interesting to see how you view other forms of opposition to the dominant cultural hegemony/ideology.

Oh, I keep forgetting: "ideologies" are what other people have and not you.

 

[astronaut]

If you accept that these cartoons are "anti-Israeli" then it would be interesting to see how you view other forms of opposition to the dominant cultural hegemony/ideology.

Nino, please explain why they are pro-Israel. I've already explained why they are anti-Israel. Can you explain your reasoning, so we can understand where you are coming from? Please!

 

[angry bob]

It's easy to accuse me of those things but you can't hide the fact that you're pursuing an agenda which is identical to the one pursued by the US right:which says that there is a "liberal bias in the media".

If you'll see my above post you'll realise that I'm doing nothing of the sort, nor have I ever.

I think these accusations of 'liberal bias' are, on the whole, total garbage.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino, please explain why they are pro-Israel. I've already explained why they are anti-Israel. Can you explain your reasoning? Please!

I never said they were "pro-Israeli". Try reading my posts instead of making things up.

And you wondered why I accused you of trolling.

 

[nino_savatte]

If you'll see my above post you'll realise that I'm doing nothing of the sort, nor have I ever.

I think these accusations of 'liberal bias' are, on the whole, total garbage.

Oh really? You accept that these cartoons are "anti-Israeli", therefore it is fairy easy to conclude that you would accept the mistaken notion of "liberal bias in the media".

Calling these cartoons "anti" anything is simply another way of closing down or controlling discourse.

 

[angry bob]

What do I know about your ideology? Well, let's just say I've read your posts elsewhere on Urban and they tell me that you're right wing and also American.

If you accept that these cartoons are "anti-Israeli" then it would be interesting to see how you view other forms of opposition to the dominant cultural hegemony/ideology.

Oh, I keep forgetting: "ideologies" are what other people have and not you.

Yeah ... I'm american ... and I suppose the best lable you could put on my ideology is 'right wing libetarian'. This puts me further from the views of Bush et al than most democrats.

Now I think maybe we need to define what you mean by 'anti-israeli'.

I think that several of the cartoons are making points that are critical of israeli policy/politicians. I also think that they are not displaying an pro-israeli bias.

That is all I mean ... perhaps we do not disagree after all?

And I dont know what you mean by your last comment. We all have ideologies ... I have never said otherwise.

 

[astronaut]

I never said they were "pro-Israeli". Try reading my posts instead of making things up.

You said they weren't anti-Israeli, when it is perfectly clear that they are anti-Israel.

 

[nino_savatte]

You said they weren't anti-Israeli, when it is perfectly clear that they are anti-Israel.

And you're obsessed with useless and simplistic binaries. You simply cannot accept the fact, that in a society that has a free press, there is the right to criticise.

You have called these cartoons "anti-Israeli" for a reason and there are two: the first is to close down and control discourse and the second is to demonise your opponents.

You are transparently obvious.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yeah ... I'm american ... and I suppose the best lable you could put on my ideology is 'right wing libetarian'. This puts me further from the views of Bush et al than most democrats.

Now I think maybe we need to define what you mean by 'anti-israeli'.

I think that several of the cartoons are making points that are critical of israeli policy/politicians. I also think that they are not displaying an pro-israeli bias.

That is all I mean ... perhaps we do not disagree after all?

And I dont know what you mean by your last comment. We all have ideologies ... I have never said otherwise.

I would like you to quote the post where I said these cartoons were "pro-Israeli" or "anti-Israeli", if you would be so kind.

If you can't, then shut up.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You said they weren't anti-Israeli, when it is perfectly clear that they are anti-Israel.

A point.

Are "Israeli" and "Israel" the same thing?

 

[astronaut]

And you're obsessed with useless and simplistic binaries. You simply cannot accept the fact, that in a society that has a free press, there is the right to criticise.

You have called these cartoons "anti-Israeli" for a reason and there are two: the first is to close down and control discourse and the second is to demonise your opponents.

You are transparently obvious.

Look, you can poke holes all you like. This has nothing to do with free press or the right to criticize. That is something you have added to get out of your hole. Fact is, until you demonstrate why you think these are not anti-Israel cartoons, it's pointless to talk with you. You are deliberately trying to provoke me into a bitter argument, and I'm not going to play your game.

 

[nino_savatte]

Look, you can poke holes all you like. This has nothing to do with free press or the right to criticize. That is something you have added to get out of your hole. Fact is, until you demonstrate why you think these are not anti-Israel cartoons, it's pointless to talk with you. You are deliberately trying to provoke me into a bitter argument, and I'm not going to play your game.

Please quote the post where I said the cartoons were "pro-Israeli" or "anti-Israeli"?

You can't, you made it all up. If you don't want folk to poke holes in your arguments then don't post on bulletin boards.

Like I said, the reason you have chosen to say this is to control discourse. I'm not provoking you at all. On the contrary, it is you who is provoking not only me, but others.

 

[nino_savatte]

In the run up to the Iraq invasion, many US right wing commentators had taken a trip back to the McCarthy era when they accused writers, intellectuals and artists of being "anti-American" for simply expressing their opposition to the US led invasion. This continues today and here, on this thread, we have people claiming that some cartoons are "anti-Israeli"...not "anti-Israel" but "anti-Israeli". Whatever the semantics, the sentiment is exactly the same one expressed by the US right: demonise and smear your opponents and thereby choke off any forms of discourse that appear unacceptable to the dominant culture/ideology so that you look and sound like a true 'patriot' or a 'non-extremist', which in turn gives you the air of legitimacy. It's all an illusion.

 

[angry bob]

I would like you to quote the post where I said these cartoons were "pro-Israeli" or "anti-Israeli", if you would be so kind.

If you can't, then shut up.

Where did I say you did? You simply said, or implied, that they were not anti-Israeli.

Which equally calls for a definition of what you mean by anti-Israeli.

Sheesh ... it seems like your being deliberately dense here.

 

[angry bob]

Please quote the post where I said the cartoons were "pro-Israeli" or "anti-Israeli"?

You can't, you made it all up. If you don't want folk to poke holes in your arguments then don't post on bulletin boards.

Like I said, the reason you have chosen to say this is to control discourse. I'm not provoking you at all. On the contrary, it is you who is provoking not only me, but others.

He doesnt say you did

But you have clearly implied that you believe they are not anti Israeli ... without giving any reason why not ... or what you mean by anti-Israeli.

You must have a definition of a thing if you believe that something is not that thing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Where did I say you did? You simply said, or implied, that they were not anti-Israeli.

Which equally calls for a definition of what you mean by anti-Israeli.

Sheesh ... it seems like your being deliberately dense here.

I implied nothing. Please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

It would appear that you deliberately, if not wilfully, missed this post.

In the run up to the Iraq invasion, many US right wing commentators had taken a trip back to the McCarthy era when they accused writers, intellectuals and artists of being "anti-American" for simply expressing their opposition to the US led invasion. This continues today and here, on this thread, we have people claiming that some cartoons are "anti-Israeli"...not "anti-Israel" but "anti-Israeli". Whatever the semantics, the sentiment is exactly the same one expressed by the US right: demonise and smear your opponents and thereby choke off any forms of discourse that appear unacceptable to the dominant culture/ideology so that you look and sound like a true 'patriot' or a 'non-extremist', which in turn gives you the air of legitimacy. It's all an illusion.

It's you who's dense, mon ami.

 

[nino_savatte]

He doesnt say you did

But you have clearly implied that you believe they are not anti Israeli ... without giving any reason why not ... or what you mean by anti-Israeli.

You must have a definition of a thing if you believe that something is not that thing.

He does, go back and read his posts.

Better still, have a look at this and see my reply down the page.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=4681470&postcount=31

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, Bob?

 

[angry bob]

In the run up to the Iraq invasion, many US right wing commentators had taken a trip back to the McCarthy era when they accused writers, intellectuals and artists of being "anti-American" for simply expressing their opposition to the US led invasion. This continues today and here, on this thread, we have people claiming that some cartoons are "anti-Israeli"...not "anti-Israel" but "anti-Israeli". Whatever the semantics, the sentiment is exactly the same one expressed by the US right: demonise and smear your opponents and thereby choke off any forms of discourse that appear unacceptable to the dominant culture/ideology so that you look and sound like a true 'patriot' or a 'non-extremist', which in turn gives you the air of legitimacy. It's all an illusion.

Or ...

The US media is pro-Israeli:

the sentiment is exactly the same one expressed by the US right: demonise and smear your opponents and thereby choke off any forms of discourse that appear unacceptable to the dominant culture/ideology so that you look and sound like a true 'liberal' or a 'non-extremist', which in turn gives you the air of legitimacy.

It works both ways.

And ffs. You've been the one smearing people here.

Apparently astronauts views count for nothing because he finds 'shyster' to be an offense racial insult

And mine count for nothing because I am american and right wing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Or ...

The US media is pro-Israeli:

the sentiment is exactly the same one expressed by the US right: demonise and smear your opponents and thereby choke off any forms of discourse that appear unacceptable to the dominant culture/ideology so that you look and sound like a true 'liberal' or a 'non-extremist', which in turn gives you the air of legitimacy.

It works both ways.

And ffs. You've been the one smearing people here.

Apparently astronauts views count for nothing because he finds 'shyster' to be an offense racial insult

And mine count for nothing because I am american and right wing.

Now you're trying to twist my words around - as well as trying to put word into my mouth.

How have I been "smearing people"? Oh and for your information, "shyster" is not a "racial insult". We've already been over that one, friend.

So as for you being right wing and American, I suppose you never once referred to those with whom you are at ideological odds, as being "anti-American"? Maybe you didn't but the vast majority of your fellow travellers did. The purpose of describing these cartoons as "anti-Israeli" are for the reasons I mentioned. There is no hidden discourse.