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Privatised or nationalised railways?

O

Oswaldtwistle

Banned
( I hope Editor doesn't mind me quoting him here, but his off-the-cuff remark has got me thinking)

For those that don't read the Brixton forum, I recently posted up some stuff about a tube closure that affects Brixtoners. Several people had quite a few well-justified moans about how long it was taking, and then Editor said 'I'm sure the old GWR could have done it quicker'. And I agree.

Which leaves those of us (including me) who support public services being publicly owned with a bit of a problem, because of course the old GWR was a private company from the ground up.

We all like to moan about the privatised railways but I'm old enough to remember BR, and that was no bowl of cherries either. I do wonder if the problem isn't privatisation as such, but the break in integration. between bottom and top.

In the GWR days, if the blokes on the ground didn't do the repairs quickly enough, the trains didn't run and there was a real direct loss of fares to the money men. There was no possiblity of blame or buck passing to another company (as happens on national rail now) but also a real financial accountability between crap performance on the ground and loss of profit (which is hard to replicate on the publicly owned tube- or indeed in any public ownership model).
 
British Rail ran a modern rail service on a shoestring budget. It shifted two thirds the number of people that today's railway does for one third of the cost. By the late 1980s, it had the highest proportion of trains in Europe running at over 100mph, it managed major upgrade projects like the East Coast Main Line upgrade on time and within budget, unlike today's railway. Arguably, it was the most efficient railway operator in the world.

People romanticise the 'Big Four', but their record was very patchy indeed. None of them made much of a profit, none of them was very innovative and all of them receive far more credit than they deserve.

Bring back British Rail.
 
Roadkill said:
British Rail ran a modern rail service on a shoestring budget. It shifted two thirds the number of people that today's railway does for one third of the cost. By the late 1980s, it had the highest proportion of trains in Europe running at over 100mph, it managed major upgrade projects like the East Coast Main Line upgrade on time and within budget, unlike today's railway. Arguably, it was the most efficient railway operator in the world.

People romanticise the 'Big Four', but their record was very patchy indeed. None of them made much of a profit, none of them was very innovative and all of them receive far more credit than they deserve.

Bring back British Rail.
Click to expand...
:cool: absolutely
 
Roadkill said:
People romanticise the 'Big Four', but their record was very patchy indeed. None of them made much of a profit, none of them was very innovative and all of them receive far more credit than they deserve.
Click to expand...

Which obviously leads me to say 'Mallard' and 'Flying Scotsman'

Or are they not as inovative as they seem? :confused:
 
Oswaldtwistle said:
Which obviously leads me to say 'Mallard' and 'Flying Scotsman'

Or are they not as inovative as they seem? :confused:
Click to expand...

What was so innovative about them, then? They were merely conventional trains of the time, running a bit faster than average.

The publicity departments of the 'big four' did a good job of giving them a modern image that they didn't really deserve.
 
Trains are one of my pet subjects. :D

Tbh, though, there is still a very worthwhile debate to be had on where the railways go from here. Even within the industry, a lot of people seem to think that the current structure isn't ideal or isn't sustainable and will need to change...
 
Roadkill said:
People romanticise the 'Big Four', but their record was very patchy indeed. None of them made much of a profit, none of them was very innovative and all of them receive far more credit than they deserve.
Click to expand...
To be fair, all the Big Four railways were thoroughly decimated by WW2, although the GWR was still running at a profit at nationalisation. Early BR was run on much the same lines as the Big Four - indeed the GWR looked almost unchanged for many years - but there was an unarguable case for reducing duplicate lines and sharing assets.

Some of Beeching's cuts could not really be argued -some lines were running to the middle of nowhere with barely a passenger in sight - although many, many communities are still regretting some of the stupider decisions.

BR certainly was successful in its early days until budget cuts and the evil Thatch did her best to destroy more lines via ludicrous investment slashing.

But what we've had in recent years is the worst of all evils: fat cat franchisers with no long term interest or commitment to the railway filling their pockets regardless of performance.
 
The GWR was running at a pretty modest profit, though, and the other three companies did worse. And tbh, the GWR's profit was gained at the expense of investment: it was looking pretty old-fashioned by 1939. It's interesting to speculate on how the 'big four' would have fared if they hadn't been nationalised, though. Tbh, I'd tend to put BR's record the other way round from you: I think its earliest years were its worst, but then it improved a lot in the '70s and '80s. I wonder if the 'big four', if they'd been properly recompensed for war usage, might have handled the changed of the 1950s and '60s better than BR did. Perhaps the Beeching fiasco wouldn't have happened. But either way, the railways shouldn't have been privatised the way they were. As you say, it's the worst of all worlds now.
 
theres on easy way to compare

go to Europe and pootle about on trains/ come back & do the same in UK

I know that many of the European rail companies are not nationalised as such, but its a decent way to compare at ground level
 
Roadkill said:
British Rail ran a modern rail service on a shoestring budget. It shifted two thirds the number of people that today's railway does for one third of the cost. By the late 1980s, it had the highest proportion of trains in Europe running at over 100mph, it managed major upgrade projects like the East Coast Main Line upgrade on time and within budget, unlike today's railway. Arguably, it was the most efficient railway operator in the world.

People romanticise the 'Big Four', but their record was very patchy indeed. None of them made much of a profit, none of them was very innovative and all of them receive far more credit than they deserve.

Bring back British Rail.
Click to expand...

Yep. If only for the accountability.
 
Roadkill said:
Trains are one of my pet subjects. :D
Click to expand...

Really??!! I'd never have guessed!

*puts on anorak*

As discussed on Saturday:

86101 now in service!

12th January 2007

86101 operated its first regular service train for Hull Trains yesterday evening, running from Doncaster to Kings Cross, arriving five minutes ahead of schedule.

The loco's performance, once again, was exemplary - a testament to the months of hard work put into its restoration, upgrading and overhaul by ACLG volunteers prior to hand-over in November. The loco is now being maintained by NXEC at Bounds Green to ETL's VMI.

The loco will be working Fridays and weekends for the next few months, with the Mk3+DVT set.

The diagram is as follows:

Friday 1G97 2021 Doncaster - Kings Cross 2212
Saturday 1G03 0934 Kings Cross - Doncaster 1123
Saturday 1G96 1911 Doncaster - Kings Cross 2102
Sunday 1G42 1042 Kings Cross - Doncaster
Click to expand...

*takes off anorak and re-joins the world of the sane*


:)

Looky!!:

home86101_4.jpg


That looks like it's being topped and tailed rather than with a DVT, but pretty much what i was telling you i saw at Huntingdon
 
I firmly agree with nationalised rail in principle, though I admit that I'm too young to properly remember how it run in practice. My dad was a commuter, and I don't think his experiences were majorly different to mine now. But anyway, one of the reasons I've prefer a nationalised rail system is that when I'm standing on the platform in the cold for half an hour because my train has been cancelled or delayed, at least I'd expect that more of my overpriced ticket has gone back into the service or the govt. for other public services rather than into the pockets of rich shareholder twats. Which is a thought which commonly comes back to me in such situations.

When the revolution comes, First Capital Connect and South West trains will be first against the wall. :mad:

Apologies, I realise this is hardly the most impartial, reasoned post! :D However, enjoying Roadkill's contribution. :)
 
_pH_ said:
Really??!! I'd never have guessed!

*puts on anorak*

As discussed on Saturday:
Click to expand...

I hate to admit it, but I went and looked all that up last night. :o Now I'm trying to think up a reason to travel up to Hull on a Saturday or Sunday morning ... :D
 
roadie said:
Not that I was any better, tbh. I wobbled onto a train at New Street, spent my last fiver on nasty Virgin Trains sandwiches and then fell asleep until Euston.
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Yet when you got home you looked up trainspottery things on the intermaweb :D :D

I fuckin' LOVE you man!! :D :D
 
Trainspotting would be far less anoraky and more :cool: if everyone did it while pissed :cool: Although alcohol fuelled violence might ensue :eek:

'You lookin' at my Class 47 Co-Co Diesel Electric Locomotive's bogies!? I'll fackin' nut ya, ya bastard!! Fack off back to yer stupid Pendolino EMUs and leave diesel locos to the REAL MEN!' :mad: :mad:
 
Roadkill said:
British Rail ran a modern rail service on a shoestring budget. It shifted two thirds the number of people that today's railway does for one third of the cost. By the late 1980s, it had the highest proportion of trains in Europe running at over 100mph, it managed major upgrade projects like the East Coast Main Line upgrade on time and within budget, unlike today's railway. Arguably, it was the most efficient railway operator in the world.

People romanticise the 'Big Four', but their record was very patchy indeed. None of them made much of a profit, none of them was very innovative and all of them receive far more credit than they deserve.

Bring back British Rail.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree with this. I'd add nationalise nation services reserve privatisation for some smaller branch lines or novelty lines like the Hythe and Dymchurch.
 
Pacer!? Ha! Yer fackin' 'avin' a laaaaaarf, in't ya? Like I said mate, you stick to yer poncy multiple units, i'll stick with the PROPER haulage, know wot i mean?
 
Dhimmi said:
Yes I agree with this. I'd add nationalise nation services reserve privatisation for some smaller branch lines or novelty lines like the Hythe and Dymchurch.
Click to expand...


Oi! Fack off! We're tryin' to have a ruck 'ere innit? :mad: :mad:
 
Heh :D :D Seeing as you have posted class 87 porn, here's a holiday idea for you Roadie!

"Ex-Patriot" Bulgarian 87 Railtour

2nd January 2008

Plans are at a very early stage for a railtour featuring four Class 87s in Bulgaria later this year.

Depending on progress with exports, the train is likely to run sometime in September and be top-and-tailed by pairs of 87s. An early route suggestion is Sofia - Varna and return (about 240 miles each way).

Full details will be published over the next few months. To help us gauge interest in this tour, please send us a message via the contact form selecting Bulgarian 87 Railtour from the contact list.
Click to expand...

oh god, i have quoted stuff from the AC Loco Group website twice in one day :( *hangs head in shame and seeks counselling for destructive addiction*
 
Roadkill said:
Pannier tanks for all branch lines! :cool:
Click to expand...
Now you're talking! And 0-4-2 autotrains. With copper chimneys! And massively ornate stations in remote locations.

Oh, and I'd like GWR lower quadrant signalling and signalboxes returned to the system. Much more interesting.
 
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