Private Schools. What should be done ?

[Azrael]

Whatever I could to assure that people of similar intellect had some kind of parity of outcome rather than just the current target of "equality of opportunity", which boils down to parents with greater social capital grabbing the best opportunities for their offspring. If that meant a clean sweep of the education system then so be it.

Exactly the approach I want to see. But we'll only get it when the comprehensive ideal is banished for good.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Exactly the approach I want to see. But we'll only get it when the comprehensive ideal is banished for good.

I disagree. We'll only get it when the entire current system is dismantled and replaced.

 

[brixtonvilla]

National curriculum pre-supposes that all children learn at the same rate and be of similar ability.

Actually, it does nothing of the sort. The National Curriculum is a set of skills and abilities that teachers are supposed to teach in each subject. It doesn't specify ability, and is designed to be easily differentiated.

This may sound draconian, but a system that allows an early classification of individual needs and all schools within a borough become part of a campus. Centres of excellence for the bright and aspiring children, special needs schools for the, (and don't shout at me for using his word,) dysfunctional families.

I'm not going to shout at you for using the word "dysfunctional", I'm just going to ask you to find some evidence for the link between special educational needs and "functional" family life (whatever that is). But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Disruptive pupils, the number of schemes to address the errant pupils and their individual needs and avoid the expensive permanent exclusion has created its own industry.

An industry, eh? How many people does it employ? Funny, because most EBD/Exclusion Units I've had dealings with seem woefully under-resourced for the difficult, thankless job they do. But then, I'm only a teacher...

The immediate action of excluding a pupil from a lessons only caters for the wishes of the pupil.

What about the wishes of the teacher to teach, and the pupils to learn? Aren't their wishes catered for (albeit temporarily) by exclusion?

But, hey., that would mean thinking about education and we all know that's not part of the game.

It's certainly not part of any game you're playing if this over-simplified tosh is the best you can come up with. Go to the cornershop and buy yourself a fucking clue.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The essential need is an educational system geared to adapt to the multitude of needs of the individuals. National curriculum pre-supposes that all children learn at the same rate and be of similar ability.

This may sound draconian, but a system that allows an early classification of individual needs and all schools within a borough become part of a campus. Centres of excellence for the bright and aspiring children, special needs schools for the, (and don't shout at me for using his word,) dysfunctional families. The graduation of needs and learning abilities catered for within a structured learning enviroment.

I think that frankly you either had a problem thinking of ways to categorise the separate facilities, or you're trying to be provocative.

I agree with the idea of a "campus", but why the labels? What you're proposing is a "streamed" environment. Leave out the labels and you make it much easier for "late maturers", "lazy buggers" and the like to be up or down-streamed.

It is possible, the movement of pupils would be the greatest problem, but if this was part of a captial wide transport system with new and radical approaches. Yes it could be achieved and private schools would become non essential against an education system geared to , dare I use the word, educate.

Financially, I don't think travel to a "campus" would be a problem. If it were the only game in town I can't ee how it would cost the administrating authority any more than the current hotch-potch of school buses and free public transport passes.

Disruptive pupils, the number of schemes to address the errant pupils and their individual needs and avoid the expensive permanent exclusion has created its own industry. The excluded pupil can have a better level of attention both before and after exclusion than the well behaved and attentive pupil. The immediate action of excluding a pupil from a lessons only caters for the wishes of the pupil.

I don't want to do this subject, ' Disrupt' get thrown out and sit outside the head's office.. which actually creates its own social peer grouping, almost like a club. Seclusion units within the scholl and away from the mainstream.

But, hey., that would mean thinking about education and we all know that's not part of the game.

The key IMHO would be to find out why individual pupils were disruptive, and tailor combined punishment and "rehabilitation" to address the particular problem. I would, of course, remove the disruptive pupil from the general school population while this was done. I'd also seek legislation tat didn't allow pupils to leave school until they'd achieved a certain basic level of education (commensurate with their assessed abilities) and make it clear just how boring it would be to be a 20-yr old school attendee while your peers were out earning money.

Totally unrealistic, I know.

 

[Descartes]

I think that frankly you either had a problem thinking of ways to categorise the separate facilities, or you're trying to be provocative.

Trying not list all the possibles and only listing the extremes.

Exclusion,

Seclusion units within the school and away from the mainstream.

Finland has what is considered the best education system in Europe at present, primarily because there is a resident social worker in each school to deal with the problems as there arise.

The industry: things like Incident of concern report,Serious Incident Report, SENSS, PSP, SENCO, IEP action plus, TOCH, Pupil referral form, CSEP, Pacemakers Mentoring scheme.. and the others....

My previous were a broad view, if you would like a detailed synopsis... well. that would take some time.

The reluctance of parents to participate in schemes designed to help their children. The past record of pupils after managed moves and the re-ocurrence of basic incidents, all contribute to the title of ' the excluded pupil'

I can understand the the concern if you have particpated in a 'Span' unit but.... I have a report in front of me detailing how this pupil has .. ' arrived on time, enthusiastic and keen to seek and grasp the variety of lessons and tools in order to enhance general life progression. Has actively participated within the structure of the organisation in general and has been a pleasure to work with.... during the session it has been an objective to relate ' lessons learnt' back into the school environment context at every opportunity..

Wow, you would think after a report like that the pupil would settle and change into a glowing and praise worthy individual.... actually, he pulled a knife on another pupil and was permantly excluded...

His file is something like 180 pages, my concern is the cost where early intervention might , only might, have changed the outcome, but the system does not allow for a quick and realistic response to incidents. The weekly meeting, HOY, HOD's subject teachers all have input and measures to implement, The paperwork, the people involved, the outside agencies when a selusion unit within the school and away from the mainestream classroom would help addressthe problems.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Im all for private education after seeing the horrific cock up that is state education in all its grim reality. In fact I think all parents should be given free reign over where they send their children to school, abolish the state system altogether and fund childrens education equally- something which doesnt happen in the state system becuase heads can spend on whatever they likem and do.
To believe that state education is a good thing is laughable. People think its good becuase its 'free'

 

[tbaldwin]

I disagree. We'll only get it when the entire current system is dismantled and replaced.

How would you dismantle it? And what would you replace it with ?

 

[the B]

If I was to rebuild the education from the ground up, you can be sure as that there'd be no option for "public schools" (or rather, selective fee requiring schools).

And I think that on urban75, is still something you'd see the vast majority of people agreeing with. All those new-ish right wing ramblers will drift off elsewhere

 

[Descartes]

There are too many imponderables, the inability of the parent to either understand or realise the potential or lack of potential of the child.
The inability of the primary and middle schools to address problem children.

But the list goes on, most parents have aspirations for their child, regardless of their actual ability, and the number of times the parent extolls the virtue of the child when it is in complete contrast to the reality.

 

[Dhimmi]

Gordon Brown has said he wants to close the gap between state and private education,but how realistic is that?

It's a realistic way to gather votes.

 

[brixtonvilla]

The industry: things like Incident of concern report,Serious Incident Report, SENSS, PSP, SENCO, IEP action plus, TOCH, Pupil referral form, CSEP, Pacemakers Mentoring scheme.. and the others...

Those are procedures and roles set in place to address individual needs, not an "industry". Seeing as you're the one arguing for "The graduation of needs and learning abilities catered for within a structured learning enviroment", perhaps you could tell me how we address graduating needs and abilities without Individual Education Plans, a Special Needs Co-ordinator, and so on? While you're at it, you might want to learn the difference between educational special needs and behavioural special needs. At the minute you seem to be lumping in all SEN (dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism, etc) in with things like lack of social skills, anger management, etc. That seems a little simplistic, to put it mildly.

I can understand the the concern if you have particpated in a 'Span' unit but.... I have a report in front of me detailing how this pupil has .. ' arrived on time, enthusiastic and keen to seek and grasp the variety of lessons and tools in order to enhance general life progression. Has actively participated within the structure of the organisation in general and has been a pleasure to work with.... during the session it has been an objective to relate ' lessons learnt' back into the school environment context at every opportunity..

Wow, you would think after a report like that the pupil would settle and change into a glowing and praise worthy individual.... actually, he pulled a knife on another pupil and was permantly excluded...

This is (again) simplistic gibberish. No, I don't think a few words written on a report noting a child doing the right things will turn an (apparently) disturbed child into a "glowing and praiseworthy individual" overnight. If you do, then I'd have to seriously doubt if you're really suited to work in education.

His file is something like 180 pages, my concern is the cost where early intervention might , only might, have changed the outcome, but the system does not allow for a quick and realistic response to incidents. The weekly meeting, HOY, HOD's subject teachers all have input and measures to implement, The paperwork, the people involved, the outside agencies when a selusion unit within the school and away from the mainestream classroom would help addressthe problems.

If a child has a file 180 pages long, I'd suggest that there has been early intervention. Unless it's the kind of intervention that's wrong. How would you intervene? Seems to me you want to junk the special needs "industry" as you so charmingly put it, in favour of a nebulously-defined "early intervention", which "might" work. It also seems to me that you see exclusion as an instrument of first resort. I think you're utterly, utterly wrong.

 

[The Groke]

How would you dismantle it? And what would you replace it with ?

Ooh!

How about Starbucks/McDonalds Youth Training Centres?

 

[ViolentPanda]

How would you dismantle it? And what would you replace it with ?

Read my previous posts and find out, you muppet.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ooh!

How about Starbucks/McDonalds Youth Training Centres?

That's probably what Balders has in mind.

 

[tbaldwin]

What would I do?

Whatever I could to assure that people of similar intellect had some kind of parity of outcome rather than just the current target of "equality of opportunity", which boils down to parents with greater social capital grabbing the best opportunities for their offspring. If that meant a clean sweep of the education system then so be it.

Thats just waffle. What would you do?

 

[cathal marcs]

Ban them and force the rich to send their little cherubs to the same schools as the rest of us.Likewise ban religious schooling.

 

[Descartes]

when a selusion unit within the school and away from the mainestream classroom would help address the problems.

Perm. exclusion sholud be the last resort, the above details, again, a need to step outside of the normal procedures and address the situation before intervention by outside agencies is required.

Were on the same side but approaching it from different directions.

The pupil/s in question had been subject to a multitude of intervention programs. The family life, a mother with two children with different fathers, each father having a different attitude to his own child. The two children violently confronting each other and the violence being carried over into school. The elder of the children was subject of a managed move and the sibling followed because of the,seemingly, good work. Both children have since been subject to exhaustive intervention work at all levels. The mother failing to sign permission for a PSP for the younger child and refusing to address the problems with the older was considered the final straw.

The repeated action of assault against fellow pupils, the carrying and use of a knife, where do you draw the line and consider the safety of the other pupils?

LEA etc were involved and the offer of a laptop to the first excluded child only increased the need to be excluded by the younger.

At a recent school council, the comments and a huge majority vote wanted qucker action in ejecting disruptive pupils from class.

Against both National and borough average for exclusion on 2 permanent in the last year.

My concern is the cost, over £5 million borough wide in dealing with permanent exclusions. that is only after exclusion and not the cost of having in place ' the industry' in dealing with problems best addressed before the 11 to 16 and the 14 to 19 age groups.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

As long as jeeves has my smoking jacket ready I don't care.

 

[brixtonvilla]

I'm not anti-exclusion by any means - sounds like the child you mention is a nasty wee scrote & deserved to be kicked out (when all other measures are exhausted). God knows the year I spent working for a head who flatly refused to exclude disruptive children was horrible. It just seems to me that you want it both ways - you decry the "industry" and its associated costs, but seem to want to exclude children as much as (if not more than) we do now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thats just waffle. What would you do?

The posts I made after that one, you fuckwit.

FFS, do you need people to wipe your arse for you too?

 

[tbaldwin]

I disagree. We'll only get it when the entire current system is dismantled and replaced.

This was your next attempt VP. Not exactly clear how you would dismantle it or replace it?
Why havent you voted?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This was your next attempt VP. Not exactly clear how you would dismantle it or replace it?
Why havent you voted?

Have you forgotten how to read?

You'll notice I say "posts". It's a plural, that means "more than one".

Why haven't I voted? Because you don't have an option for "offer tbaldwin as a blood sacrifice to the god of learning and knowledge (that's Thoth in case you're wondering)".

 

[tbaldwin]

I think that frankly you either had a problem thinking of ways to categorise the separate facilities, or you're trying to be provocative.

I agree with the idea of a "campus", but why the labels? What you're proposing is a "streamed" environment. Leave out the labels and you make it much easier for "late maturers", "lazy buggers" and the like to be up or down-streamed.

Financially, I don't think travel to a "campus" would be a problem. If it were the only game in town I can't ee how it would cost the administrating authority any more than the current hotch-potch of school buses and free public transport passes.


The key IMHO would be to find out why individual pupils were disruptive, and tailor combined punishment and "rehabilitation" to address the particular problem. I would, of course, remove the disruptive pupil from the general school population while this was done. I'd also seek legislation tat didn't allow pupils to leave school until they'd achieved a certain basic level of education (commensurate with their assessed abilities) and make it clear just how boring it would be to be a 20-yr old school attendee while your peers were out earning money.

Totally unrealistic, I know.

Do you mean this? Not really sure what you think?

 

[tbaldwin]

Why haven't I voted? Because you don't have an option for "offer tbaldwin as a blood sacrifice to the god of learning and knowledge (that's Thoth in case you're wondering)".

You seem to have very clear views on me...But you dont seem to clear about private education?

 

[ViolentPanda]

You seem to have very clear views on me...But you dont seem to clear about private education?

If it doesn't seem clear then you probably didn't bother to read the posts it was replying to, because it seems pretty clear to me that if you merged all schooling in a district into a single campus, then by definition you wouldn't have any private schools, would you?

 

[tbaldwin]

If it doesn't seem clear then you probably didn't bother to read the posts it was replying to, because it seems pretty clear to me that if you merged all schooling in a district into a single campus, then by definition you wouldn't have any private schools, would you?

If i merge all your posts together all i come up with is a mess.
And as you say it's totally unrealistic??????

So what do you think of charitable status?
Or subsidised H/E for x public school kids?
Or increased investment for state education?

 

[tbaldwin]

Bit suprised that so many people on here just want the govt to leave private schools alone or learn from them????
I thought that most people on urban75 would be totally against this type of educational privellege or at the very least pretend they were. But it seems more people are being honest about where there true loyalties lie. Which i suppose has to be a good thing.
But i think that its a disgrace that public schools are given charitable status and we continue to subsidise H/E for xindependent school pupils.

 

[the B]

Independent school pupils aren't subsidised. They are subsidising the state sector.

Independent schools fulfill functions that state schools often don't in terms of their flexibility and ability to specialise. That isn't to say, as such, that independent schools are right in an ideal education system, but in the current one that appears to be steeped in rigidity, they can be a lesser evil.

(some however, are complete ****)

Anyway, if you nerfed all the independent schools, you'd get 7% more pupils to teach pre-16 and about 14% more post-16 in existing and fairly heavily loaded existing facilities. If you don't nerf those places, you're left with school buildings and grounds that can often vastly outstrip their non-independent counterparts. Where do you think parents will want to send their kids? I assume you're not going to strip parents of choice...

 

[tbaldwin]

The B ive heard that arguement before about independent schools subsidising the state sector.Not a great one in my opinion.Charitable status being withdrawn for a start would mean that over one and a half billion more £s could go into the state sector.
While the rich can afford a different type of education for their kids,the UK will always be a divided nation.
I agree there is an issue of choice here,thats why i didnt vote to ban them.But in my opinion the govt should do all they can to increase taxes and eliminate allowances for independent schools.
There really is no justification for x public school kids getting subsidised H/E either.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If i merge all your posts together all i come up with is a mess.

[
That's because you're an idiot.

And as you say it's totally unrealistic??????

So what do you think of charitable status?

I think it needs "reviewing" (you know, one of those "new labour" "reviews" where it's actually a cunning plan to dismantle something). I'd also like to see the assets that many schools and colleges hold sequestrated.

Or subsidised H/E for x public school kids?

I'd like to see subsidy based purely on ability to pay.

Or increased investment for state education?

Depends what sort of investment and into what sectors.