Private Schools. What should be done ?

[Dissident Junk]

I suppose this leads inevitably to the question, why do some parents feel that education is useless?

This is linked to the powerlessness and apathy that large parts of the population feel. How can we address that?

While I agree with your point, I also think we need to be realistic. Some parents are just *ahem* bloody awful. My mentor told me a story about a teenager sent to her school with encrusted faeces lining the inside of his trousers. It was discovered when he ripped them during the school day and the HE teacher offered to run them up on her machine. A letter was sent home, and the reply the next day was 'I'm not washing his shitty trousers all the time.'

Again, quite a number of children are sent private because parents are terrified of the impact of a state school, not because they want them to get good grades. I teach children I know I am babysitting purely because mothers feels that they will lose their sons if they go into the state sector (one kid already runs a pretty vicious gang at 14; in a state school, he'd go awol).

The thing is I wonder if is there not something awkward in expecting all parents to concur with particularly middle-class values, like supporting and encouraging academic study and sedentary learning styles. Whilst I would say 'yes, cos that's what you kinda need in this society', I also realise that it would be seen as patronising in some other arenas.

 

[Giles]

Meanwhile choice may seem like a good thing, and is in general, but one must try and remember what might happen to a family with parents who DON'T care and just send their children to the nearest school.

How can we ensure that an Einstein in such a family will be picked up and educated well?

The answer is, we probably can't.

But forcing everyone to send their kids to the "nearest school" won't make spotting an Einstein any more likely, if anything probably less.

And choice IS a good thing, in general.

Ask most people "would you rather have some element of choice in most aspects of your life, or would you prefer to be given something and told "That's it. Like it or lump it" and I know what answer you would get.

Giles..

 

[dennisr]

Ask most people "would you rather have some element of choice in most aspects of your life, or would you prefer to be given something and told "That's it. Like it or lump it" and I know what answer you would get.

but then add to this question "but you cannot afford it anyway - so forget your illusory 'choice' and bah humbug to you commoner" and see what result you would get

 

[Gmart]

I know what you mean, some parents just don't believe in education. Some of the kids i have taught smelled so much of piss as to make it impossible to go near them without gagging.

So we have some parents who just don't care. Do they have the right to ignore their child's needs? Schools are there in my mind to teach children what is needed by society to exist and to hopefully to teach them the skills needed to become part of society rather than a drain on its resources. I know this might sound somewhat fascist but people don't have the freedom to do nothing, and in the modern society there are essential skills which are needed. Reading, Writing, Arithmetic and computer skills and probably logic to a basic level. But if some parents do not support the teachers, what could be done to persuade them of the merits of cooperation? The reasons behind this might be a tradition of a lack of education which has not prevented the ability to make a living.

The reason why i have gone on about a meritocracy (where there is equality of opportunity) is that in such a system the poor would be confronted with the same opportunities as the rich, thus leaving themselves unable to blame others for their problems, but this would represent a distinct shift from the class system which has 'worked' for centuries.

I appreciate the need to be realistic, thus my example of a halfway point between a meritocracy and the current system (#191) I appreciate that this halfway point might not work perfectly as the rich would still have an advantage, but the division between the rich and poor would not be as distinct as now.

Maybe we need to make education optional, and the parents need to sign a document stating that they will produce children who are clean and that they will support teachers in their decisions?

Before certain people jump at this with horror, i am just thinking of solutions, maybe if parents don't care about education their views should be respected rather than ignored. If a child does not want to learn, going to a school anyway will just lead to more problems in the classroom. We could thus re-direct the resources from the schools to re-training adults (for free) for when (and if) adults without enough education, or with qualifications which need updating/changing decide they need it.

 

[Giles]

but then add to this question "but you cannot afford it anyway - so forget your illusory 'choice' and bah humbug to you commoner" and see what result you would get

It is not usually that "extreme" though, is it?

In the real world.

Parents seem to like the (free) choice between state schools, even given the obvious limitations of over-subscription.

Giles..

 

[Descartes]

You are moving away fromt eh ethos or needs of education to the perils of parenting. The old adage that some parent absolve themselves of responsibilty as soon as the child passes through the school gates

Parenthood is one of the most important undertaking any person assumes but t is a role for which there is no training. The merits of an education, the standards of the parents are passed to the child, the belief that aducation is only for the snobs all contribute to the malaise that surrounds secondary education. The private education system is maintained by the parents that do care and take the effort to ensure that educational needs are addressed.

The cost basis and the need for parents to adapts their budgets to cater for their childrens education has already been stated and is this the true criteria or difference between the state and public.

We are generalising about the intentions and ambitions of the parents, quoting the very bad and not dealing with children within the state system that go on to achieve very high pass marks. One pupils achieving marks in Science to place them in the top ten per cent in the country, a budding Einstein that everyone fears will slip through the system.

It does happen, the bright pupil with parents that seemingly are not educationally motivated but with children that absorb and devlop within the system

Don't give up hope yet. Parts of the country have excellent secondary schools with very good records but the urban enviroment creates a different and difficult set of problems.

 

[Gmart]

It's all very well saying that some children are served well by the state system, esp the ones with parents who care, but the fact remains that the private schools skim the cream off the top, and no number of extreme examples, who manage to get through will discount the millions who are let down by the general quality of schooling there.

Personally i am becoming convinced that we should stop making education a mandatory requirement, and make it available for those who want it, and thus who are motivated. With the resources saved from this we could keep the adult education sector available for all, for the time when those who missed out because their parents didn't care decide to enter education. This is MUCH more important because then people have the chance to always re-train, rather than getting stuck in a job which they hate, or stuck without a job, or stuck.

I think that the National Curriculum should either be applied to all, or none. I also think that all schools should transfer to the International Bac, but maybe that would be too far for many.

We also need to concentrate on training teachers, and how we may get to a point where we can trust the teachers to do a good job. NOT surround them with so much red tape as to make their jobs impossible.

Also teachers should have the right to escort the children physically from the classroom if they are disruptive.

Without these measures we will never make any headway.

 

[Descartes]

I can quote you state chools with a 1000 plus pupils that excell, with good exam results.

You complain of genralisations and also single cases but are reluctant to concede that state schools do exist that cater for and provide a good education.

 

[Gmart]

You mis-understand me, I have accepted that the state system provides a good education for those who have parents who care. However my concern is not with these lucky children, who would get a good education wherever they went, but with the vast numbers who are going through the state system and not getting a good education.

As I have said this may be down to the parents being good parents, and maybe you feel that if some child has bad parents then that is just their bad luck?

There are many children who go through the state system and who come out with very few qualifications, or who are simply excluded because their scores would bring down the school's league table position. It is these children who end up becoming the criminals who have no way out of crime, or who end up just stuck.

I remember a couple of kids from my state school going to Oxford and Cambridge, but with due respect to them there were many more who failed to get anything out of school, and these are the children who are being let down.

The fact that there are the occasional successes allows the politicians to NOT send their own children to a state school (because who would take that chance with their own child?) and to avoid the nettle that needs to be grasped so that our system stops letting so many people down.

So my questions remain. Do we just make education voluntary and divert resources to a free adult education service? Do we tax the existing private schools more (their tax-free status is yet another left over from the past), and what else could we do to ensure that the system does not alienate so many people? The number of people I have known through the years who have a chip on their shoulder because of their education, and who will not associate with 'that posh twat' etc. This is a class issue and we need to move beyond this towards a society where there is more equality of opportunity and thus towards a time when people can only blame themselves for their life, rather than the system.

 

[Descartes]

AHH, a blameless society, when have people put there hands up and said it's my fault, I did not, or I should have or ....

The diseffected parent will always blame the school, the teachers, the funding, etc before even considering the their own part in the education cycle. The recalcitrant pupil will always point to someone alse as the cause and effect of their problems.

It's changing the social acceptance of responsibilty and the need to impress on the pupils and their parents, that their furture relies on an education.

How do you bring that about?

Funding, how do you pay a perent or pupil to pay attention?

It would be nice to blame the lack of money but the ethos of teaching is the relationship between teaher and pupil, the abilty to communicate and a pro-active classroom and school atmosphere.

 

[Gmart]

Thus there is a big problem with the existing system, and we need to find solutions and embrace change, not just be defeatist and say 'Oh well it's always been that way and a few people seem fine and so lets keep it the way it is!'



Where is the vision of how we can change for the better?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

What a great excuse to be lazy. And if anyone complains about it then tell them you're dyslexic and watch them crumble.

Don't work for me. You just don't want to read through your posts so that they make sense to us. I've tried reading some of them over and over, but they don't.

The worst thing is that your posts are all attack, re-reading them in an effort to get some sense out of them hurts because i have to re-read your bile and when you get something wrong you don't even have the decency to apologise. What a great example for your children you must be, laziness and rudeness.

Thank you for demomnstrating how you cannot listen to anyones POV who doesnt agree with you, nor how you cannot respond adequately to a decent question put to you
and to top it all you choose to try and cast apertions on my childrens character as a result of your own shortcomings
I really hope you arent a teacher I;d hate to think of you being allowed near any child

 

[editor]

What a great example for your children you must be, laziness and rudeness.

Please adjust your 'personal abuse-o-meter' in a downward direction.

 

[editor]

I really hope you arent a teacher I;d hate to think of you being allowed near any child

Please adjust your 'personal abuse-o-meter' in a downward direction too.

 

[colacho]

It is not usually that "extreme" though, is it?

In the real world.

Parents seem to like the (free) choice between state schools, even given the obvious limitations of over-subscription.

Giles..

In the real world? FFS! The one you inhabit, I suppose...

Let's repeat this slowly...
Parents with the money to pay for their kids to go private like "choice".

Whether we are talking about education or health care choice is just a buzz word in contemporary politics that means allowing the rich to enjoy their comparative advantages. And that is the kind of society that Britain has become, not one in which the idea of community counts.

And that's why the pathetic level of debate about this issue is so depressing. We give our kids over to a state system where they spend most of their time each week. We ought to want it to be as good as possible, well funded (far more of a priority than "defence", for example). But at the moment we have allowed the thing to collapse into such a state that teachers are badly paid and under motivated, overworked to the point of nervous breakdown, and open to constant criticism from dimwit politicians and ridiculously arsey parents. AND at the same time subject to the diktats of a bilious political correctness...

Those who can afford to send their kids into private education (still a small percentage) don't fucking care. They tend to be Thatcherite bastards who don't believe in "society", "just people and their families".
Fair enough, if you subscribe to some sort of social darwinism. Let the proles rot, while we ensure that ours get what's coming to them. Or at most force them into "vocational programmes" where they learn to fulfil the menial roles allotted to them. Let's not teach them to think for themselves, or do any subjects that don't have some practical purpose from the perspective of the centre right consensus.
Fuck private education, it should be banned. Let the toffs have to rub shoulders with the rest of us, at least as kids. And they might have to worry about how crpa state ed is, too, then.

 

[Gmart]

Hear Hear!

 

[tbaldwin]

To me it seems obvious that Private Education should be taxed more.
I dont think realistically it can be banned. But doing away with Charitable status would be a move in the right direction.
NL have massivelly increased the Education budget ( and good on them for that) But they have been too timid too tackle Educational advantages.
Sadly there is very little pressure on them to really look comprehensivelly at Education.

 

[Descartes]

NL have massivelly increased the Education budget

Do you know that's the funniest thing I've read in years. The cut backs in schools, the new teaching and learning responsibilty will reduce teachers wages over the next three years, devolved funding, cut backs, specialist grants, cut backs,

The rate of inflation has overtaken the small amount of money that NL have supposedly put in to education.

NL have massivelly increased the Education budget ROFLMAO.

and employed more civil servants to run the DfES

 

[Dissident Junk]

Those who can afford to send their kids into private education (still a small percentage) don't fucking care. They tend to be Thatcherite bastards who don't believe in "society", "just people and their families".
Fair enough, if you subscribe to some sort of social darwinism. Let the proles rot, while we ensure that ours get what's coming to them. Or at most force them into "vocational programmes" where they learn to fulfil the menial roles allotted to them. Let's not teach them to think for themselves, or do any subjects that don't have some practical purpose from the perspective of the centre right consensus. Fuck private education, it should be banned. Let the toffs have to rub shoulders with the rest of us, at least as kids. And they might have to worry about how crpa state ed is, too, then.

I know you have very strong opinions about education (and you are getting angry here ) but the educational problems in the UK are so multifaceted that I suspect a blanket policy such as 'ban private education' will do more harm than good.

One of the problems you have to overcome is the splintering of what once were 'mixed-class areas' over the last forty years (I do blame the 60s obsession with estate housing). What we have now in many places outside London are areas with one certain type of housing in the majority, so the intake of school near a vast complex of crumbling high rise estates will reflect the nature of that estate; as will a school in a strongly middle-class suburb.

In such circumstances, I think it can be grossly unfair (possibly even abusive) to place minority children in such majority schools (be it a question of class, ethnicity or creed). I know of 12 year olds so badly beaten up, they've lost teeth. In this type of situation, I've known a number of parents go private (and it is interesting the number of Asian - both Hindi and Muslim - parents that do this, even though the private school may be majority white).

How we get over this problem, I don't know. It strikes me that the private education question is really about trying to get different types of people to mix together, share each other values, take on board different attitudes and ways of thinking to the benefit of everyone - and I am not too sure if this is possible.

 

[Giles]

I know you have very strong opinions about education (and you are getting angry here ) but the educational problems in the UK are so multifaceted that I suspect a blanket policy such as 'ban private education' will do more harm than good.

One of the problems you have to overcome is the splintering of what once were 'mixed-class areas' over the last forty years (I do blame the 60s obsession with estate housing). What we have now in many places outside London are areas with one certain type of housing in the majority, so the intake of school near a vast complex of crumbling high rise estates will reflect the nature of that estate; as will a school in a strongly middle-class suburb.

In such circumstances, I think it can be grossly unfair (possibly even abusive) to place minority children in such majority schools (be it a question of class, ethnicity or creed). I know of 12 year olds so badly beaten up, they've lost teeth. In this type of situation, I've known a number of parents go private (and it is interesting the number of Asian - both Hindi and Muslim - parents that do this, even though the private school may be majority white).

How we get over this problem, I don't know. It strikes me that the private education question is really about trying to get different types of people to mix together, share each other values, take on board different attitudes and ways of thinking to the benefit of everyone - and I am not too sure if this is possible.

I don't think that a lot of people actually *do* want to "mix together".

Middle-class parents would who have brought their kids up nicely don't want them to go to a school with a significant yob element. They want to find a school full of nice, middle-class kids, because their kids will do better there.

Are they wrong to want this?

Giles..

 

[dennisr]

I don't think that a lot of people actually *do* want to "mix together".

Middle-class parents would who have brought their kids up nicely don't want them to go to a school with a significant yob element. They want to find a school full of nice, middle-class kids, because their kids will do better there.

Are they wrong to want this?

Giles..

so, lets get this clear, the division is between 'middle class' and 'yob'

you don't really like us commoners do you Giles?

 

[Giles]

so, lets get this clear, the division is between 'middle class' and 'yob'

you don't really like us commoners do you Giles?

No, of course it isn't either or.

I am just questioning whether people want this supposed "ideal" of a really mixed school, or whether people would prefer their kids to go to a school made up mainly or wholly of kids from a similar background to their own, be that in terms of class, ethnicity or whatever.

Giles..

 

[dennisr]

No, of course it isn't either or.

I am just questioning whether people want this supposed "ideal" of a really mixed school, or whether people would prefer their kids to go to a school made up mainly or wholly of kids from a similar background to their own, be that in terms of class, ethnicity or whatever.

Giles..

But.. the illusion is that of 'choice' - most do not have that 'choice' - whatever they may want. All schools should be bought up to a decent standard. The whole question of weather or not a minority 'choose' (ie are priviledged enough to be able to choose - lets be blunt about it) what school thier kids go to is a false one - it is about denying decent education to others - looking after oneself and ones kids over others. If these middle class (or whatever catagory...) did not have a choice maybe they would get off of thier complaicent arses and start fighting to improve the education system as a whole and the schools thier little 'quentins and poppys' are in.

These 'yobs' you talk about are a minority - a small minority - a minority created by an education and social system based on the out-for-oneself mentality put into practice much more successfully by that priviledged minority. These 'yobs' are not the CAUSE they are the RESULT of the attitudes and system so loved by the selfish and priviledged.

Ohh - and your mask drops when you contrast your own beloved 'middle-classes' to the rest of us 'yobs' - a) the vast majority of working class children and parents are far from yobsand b) there are plenty of priviledged 'middle class; yobs out there.

 

[Giles]

But.. the illusion is that of 'choice' - most do not have that 'choice' - whatever they may want. All schools should be bought up to a decent standard. The whole question of weather or not a minority 'choose' (ie are priviledged enough to be able to choose - lets be blunt about it) what school thier kids go to is a false one - it is about denying decent education to others - looking after oneself and ones kids over others. If these middle class (or whatever catagory...) did not have a choice maybe they would get off of thier complaicent arses and start fighting to improve the education system as a whole and the schools thier little 'quentins and poppys' are in.

These 'yobs' you talk about are a minority - a small minority - a minority created by an education and social system based on the out-for-oneself mentality put into practice much more successfully by that priviledged minority. These 'yobs' are not the CAUSE they are the RESULT of the attitudes and system so loved by the selfish and priviledged.

Ohh - and your mask drops when you contrast your own beloved 'middle-classes' to the rest of us 'yobs' - a) the vast majority of working class children and parents are far from yobsand b) there are plenty of priviledged 'middle class; yobs out there.

Why does one person's decision to pay for private education, as you put
it "deny a decent education to others"?

Giles..

 

[dennisr]

Why does one person's decision to pay for private education, as you put
it "deny a decent education to others"?

Giles..

because you, and we are talking about folk like you arn't we Giles, don't then have to give a flying fart about the situation the rest of us - those without choices - are left stuck in. People like you don't work with us to improve that situation. People like you don't care because you are "alright jack" - in the same way people step over the homeless or whomsoever else gets in thier way. If people stood together united on the issue of improving the lot of all we would be able to get somewhere - instead you "look after your own" - as you always have done.


In fact, you can then attempt to legitamize the appaling state free education is in by blaming the victims, or, as you call it 'yobs'.

One does not see your own role in this - one does not have too - one can avoid the yobbish 'other' one detests so much - seperate schools, gated 'communities', private security, private hospitals, heavier policing, safely driving through those rough yobbish areas with one's car doors locked, seperate lives, seperate worlds etc etc etc - all something private schooling is a tiny part of

 

[kyser_soze]

those without choices

Bollocks - you just have fewer choices available. It's a parent's choice to either support their children through education or not, just as it's choice that determines whether or not a child bothers to apply themselves and work or fuck around all day in school. The choice to either sit back and say 'Yeah, I'm poor and a victim' or to try an inculate ambition into their kids.

Giles is being a twat i agree, but you're not much better.

 

[dennisr]

Bollocks - you just have fewer choices available. It's a parent's choice to either support their children through education or not, just as it's choice that determines whether or not a child bothers to apply themselves and work or fuck around all day in school. The choice to either sit back and say 'Yeah, I'm poor and a victim' or to try an inculate ambition into their kids.

Giles is being a twat i agree, but you're not much better.

And you are taking one rapidly typed reply (which should have included the word 'such', i would agree) out of context from the rest of the post and equated that to some sort of 'helpless victim mentality'. So, the bollocks is entirely yours. I actually think - if people are not isolated as individuals they can change a sight more than the education system, in fact I've dedicated the last 20+ years to working towards that. I don't like 'victims' especially those labelling themselves any more than you do. At the same time I don't like twats like Giles labelling of everyone else. So tell me how "i'm not much better"?

Whatever choices a child or parent makes, you are not seriously saying the 'opportunity' of private education/'choice' of school is one the vast majority have???

 

[Gmart]

alright then, calm down...

So Dissident Junk fairly points out that the ghettoising of various sections of society is part of the problem. Once started the education system has split into 2-tiers (as already stated) where the better private sector with parents who care or can afford it, while the rest get a rubbish system which gets progressively worse.

Then Giles points out that parents who care are forced into this decision through caring for their child (also reasonable) then suggesting that the parents who care don't want a mix because the state education ( a symptom of the archaic system we have) is so bad.

Dennisr then points out that this is the result of the system.

Before we yet again descend into name-calling, lets put this clearly:

1) The rich can pay to be in the upper tier of society.
2) This upper tier will be better than an equitable education system, which would educate all.
3) The parents who are poor or those who don't care (maybe because they ALSO went to the same lower tier) are thus consigned to the lower tier.
4) Thus the Upper tier gets better over time, whilst the lower tier gets worse.
5) Thus the parents in the Upper tier call the lower tier 'Yobs', and swear that they will do anything to keep them from their children.
6) Thus the lower tier call the upper tier 'Toffs' or some other name and (maybe) go off into a life of crime or low paid jobs.
7) Both tiers blame the other tier for all the problems in society.
8) The building of council estates has indeed exacerbated the problem (DJ)
9) Choice is indeed the freedom of the rich to maintain their comparative advantage (colacho) and should not impact on equality of opportunity.
10) Children have no choice who their parents are.

Is this circular, self-perpetuating situation obvious yet?

Now the question is: Do we leave this division between the ruled and the rulers?

It is no use asking the rich as they are very happy with the status quo which allows them an education which is very good though a case could be made for isolating the children from all aspects of society and even the opposite gender for those unfortunate to go to a single gender education. Also their necessary compromise to make an exception for their child, which is understandable, tends to encourage them to support it. Witness Giles, who refuses to even accept that there is a problem.

If we ask the poor then the answer might be clear enough for change; but how? This is institutionalised privilege for the rich, and one of the aims of a government should be to address issues of inequality, or else why have a government at all? With no laws, what is to stop the rich abusing the poor? It will not help to just tax them more or to ban them we need to have visionary politicians who are prepared to think of society before individuals.

I have already stated my solutions so i won't bore you, but we need solutions not just people on both sides of the fence throwing names at each other. It's just what they want. Blair won't get anywhere trying to make the current system work, and the same goes for any other party. The only constant in society is change and so eventually maybe the moment will come, and we better know what we want to do or else we'll just get superficial change again.

 

[dennisr]

...I have already stated my solutions so i won't bore you, but we need solutions not just people on both sides of the fence throwing names at each other. It's just what they want. Blair won't get anywhere trying to make the current system work, and the same goes for any other party. The only constant in society is change and so eventually maybe the moment will come, and we better know what we want to do or else we'll just get superficial change again.

Gmart, I think you are being a little unfair to me but thanks for a arbitration

Unfortunately, the first limited move towards any solution is to change the agenda; to stop the views of Giles and co-thinkers being assumed as in any way representing the actual problems the education system faces. That means exposing the source of that agenda - the underlying assumptions and ideological underpinning. If that sounds like two unchanging opposing sides it is because it is. The present dominant agenda is not set my individuals such as Giles merely echoed by them - it is set by the government and its kept media.

First of all though - if you want a reasoned debate - lets get this simple point clear and agreed: There are plenty of parents who clearly do care deeply about their children's education but do not have the 'choice' of getting out of the state school system. I see such parents all the time in my own community. I remember my own parents. I see people with limited means putting all they can into pushing their children's education, seeing this as the one way in which they can give their children a decent start. Far from being millions of families of 'yobs' who 'don't care' - there are millions who are being completely misrepresented here. it is an ignorant and arrogant insult to argue otherwise - let alone use this as an excuse for one's own selfishness. And if there are an increasing (still small minority...) of 'yobs' then it is as much to do with the same ideology of selfishness that the likes of Giles defends. It is just another side of the same coin.

The second move towards any solution and change is discussion and organisation of both those who work (and therefore have a better understanding than most...) in education alongside those who are directly effected - parents and children. I certainly would not claim to have all the answers and would want too hear these views first. The teaching unions and parents organised are the only reliable way to change things - waiting for a 'good' politician is pointless. That is part of the reason some more privalidged folk will go for the easier 'solution' of sorting out their own children first as the easier option. But the result is increasing problems being stored up.

 

[Dissident Junk]

Just a quick point, while I think about this some more . . .

I don't want other posters to assume that the idea that 'good pupils/parents' come from m/c homes while 'yobs' come from w/c homes informs my posts. I've taught barely controllable classes of 14 year olds where the hard workers are from significantly poorer homes than the rich 'yobs' that smash someone's head against the wall (and when I say rich, I mean daddy's a fkin wealthy international businessman).