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Prison officers take illegal action

Let's not forget that PFI is a direct result of the EU insisting we limit our public spending.
 
I've offered my thoughts here (actually I am a Trotskyist in an organisation though these are my views only- others in Permanent Revolution or other organisations may well disagree with aspects of what I say- I;ve just tried to get across the main points as i see them)

In summary support the strikes, and the right of Prison officers to take strike action, for labour movement not state discipline, also raise wider questions

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1619
 
junius said:
It is curious how the usual rent-a-strike trot brigade have nothing to say about this dispute. They must still be waiting for instructions from 'the centre'.

A good example of how when a group of workers really moves into action - however momentarily - the sects are nowhere to be seen.
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Exactly. Whenever anything really kicks off, they seem to stuff one foot in their gob and one hand up their arse and then just ineffectually hop around in a circle.
 
I'm a Trot - by that I mean a supporter of the idea that workers should manage our own affairs by destroying capitalism and introducing workers' power - and I with 3 other members of our organisation have been on the picket line of striking health workers today and have said we should support the prison strike. But don't let reality cloud your steretypes.

Here it is if you want to have a look http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1619
 
Re the 1919 Police Strike article linked by JP, this bit is quite surprising and indeed moving.


However, they remained self-described "stalwarts of the socialist movement", united by the memories of a struggle that had sparked panic among the rulers of the British Empire. On 30 June 1953, the Association of London Police Strikers issued its last report: "Although perhaps we do not wish to record the fact, it still remains that it is 34 years since we first took the plunge for freedom and the right to organise and we have grown old. We must not forget to bear that truth in mind and dedicate ourselves to the help of others in need through age and infirmity, so that when the last shall come we shall be gratified in the thought that we stood by each other to the end."
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urbanrevolt said:
There's even a little bit of debate- think the left at least need to discuss these things
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Of course - the left needs to discuss these things. But the rather sniffy, not to say downright hostile comments on the rather good PR website is a good indication of where many leftists are on the issue - at the rearguard.

It's not everyday that a union apparatus is prepared to contravene anti-union laws. That it was a backward union that did it and not a left-led union demonstrates that the class struggle -even at a highly distorted level - moves in a way that can't be scripted.

The PCS is controlled by trots - they have been taught a lesson in how to conduct industrial action by a bunch of screws.
 
Groucho said:
I support the POA strike on this issue (and their opposition to private prisons).

The strike raises the issue of Brown's public sector pay restraint and the right
to strike. A victory in this strike would damage Brown's pay curbs, and the anti-union laws, and would therefore be a blow for all public sector workers. Socialists should therefore be fully supportive of the POA in this dispute without dropping our criticisms of prison regime in general, nor of particular POA policies on other issues.

(The POA have supported Public Service Not Private Profit and their Gen Sec has been relatively progressive on the issue of prison reform by the way. There has been a certain maturing of a trade unionist outlook within the POA in recent years. Not that I would want to overstate that.)
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IMHO a lot of the "progressive" nature comes from the decision of HM Prison Service to end their preferential recruitment policies in the early 1990s (policy was to heavily favour applicants with a military service background on the premise that they'd be "in step" with a heavily disciplinary approach to prisoners and wouldn't be frightened of trouble "kicking off").
The introduction of a greater number of non-indoctrinated individuals to the workforce has probably helped to dilute some of the worst practices of some prison officers, but unfortunately works slowly and has to deal with the institutional nature of some of those bad practices, as well as with the fact that prison officers are as likely to become "institutionalised" as any inmate.
 
ViolentPanda said:
IMHO a lot of the "progressive" nature comes from the decision of HM Prison Service to end their preferential recruitment policies in the early 1990s (policy was to heavily favour applicants with a military service background on the premise that they'd be "in step" with a heavily disciplinary approach to prisoners and wouldn't be frightened of trouble "kicking off").
The introduction of a greater number of non-indoctrinated individuals to the workforce has probably helped to dilute some of the worst practices of some prison officers,
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I think we're starting to see this with the police, as well, with the wider variety of entrants coming in via the PCSO scheme.
 
Hi Junius

I agree that many leftists find this issue difficult- partly for understandable reasons though because of the repressive role of prison under capitlaism. But we should support these actions as strengthening the union movement- whilst raising wider questions. Just to say support without any comment on abuses in prsion etc conditions for detainees etc would be too simplistic I think.

I don't think that's sniffy let alone hostile- merely part of an intelligent response.

If you mean the commenters- as far as I know apart from me they're all non-members though Wladek works closely with us he's not a member. (anon I guess is not a member)

I agree we all need to take the action as a lesson and inspiration. The trots on the PCS excec have a bad history and they should be exposed- but the SP is hardly revolutionary
 
Dhimmi said:
Let's not forget that PFI is a direct result of the EU insisting we limit our public spending.
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It's hardly that simple, is it?

A more honest point would have been that PFI results from the perceived need (given that at least half of the core EU states regularly exceed the public spending guidelines, some YEAR AFTER YEAR) to conform to public spending guidelines while still giving the impression to the electorate that change-making amounts of money are being spent on services, and the "thumbs up" to business that capitalism-a-gogo is still definitely permissible.
 
junius said:
Of course, provided the strike was't for reactionary reasons eg to clamp down on civil liberties etc.

In certain situations, absent at the moment, even this most reactionary of workers - a section of them at least - can be split from the class they serve.

Neutrality or hostility by the left when these workers move against their masters is downright idiotic. The job of the left is to 'split,split,split' in these situations, to put it in angular fashion.

Unfortunately the left is more likely to split itself on these occasions than try to split the institutions of the capitalist state.
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an interesting answer. my instincts are to refuse to side with them on the principal that they are inherantly agents of the state themselves and solidarity is impossible with them. however yes, i think that your proposals of 'split split split' are great in theory, and show a naive optimism that makes a pleasant change from the cynicism most of us around here display.

i would be very wary of climbing into bed with those who have elected themselves capitalism's policement and gaolers, because while wearing those uniforms they are still the agents of the state even when in disagreement with their masters. we should sow dischord, certainly, at every opportunity undermining the relationship between master and servant, but to show solidarity and unconditional support would be a stab in the back for every political victim of the police and prison system.
 
poster342002 said:
I think we're starting to see this with the police, as well, with the wider variety of entrants coming in via the PCSO scheme.
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It's a shame that, in a way, it'll either being a losing battle against institutional inertia, or that it'll take so long to have any major effects that at least another generation will be condemned to suffer the arseholeism of the current crop.
 
The general problem some of the left has with the POA is that they don't think prison officers are working class. Rather, they are lacks of capital. This is my old frinends who used to be in Workers Power used to argue that the POA should be expelled from the TUC.

I always found this odd. The vast majority of POA members are working class - their partners will be factory workers, secretaries, nurses,plumbers etc. They're children will be shop workers, teachers etc or in some deadend job.

Yes their consciousness is highly contradictory but they remain working class. Just as civil servants are who humiliate the jobless, snoop on people who work on the side to make a crust or those that harrass immigrants.

To write off any section of workers is to make the job of marxists doubly difficult. We should want to create communist fractions in the POA, perhaps cause a split in some circumstances.

And, no doubt, some of those sections of the left who make a principle of not offering solidarity with the POA, have no difficulty blocking with the likes of the Taliban etc. That's the anti-imperialist united front innit?
 
Good point that..

And, no doubt, some of those sections of the left who make a principle of not offering solidarity with the POA, have no difficulty blocking with the likes of the Taliban etc. That's the anti-imperialist united front innit?
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treelover said:
Good point that..
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Quite - and it's a lot of the reason why I've gone right off most of the kitsh-left in Britain. They seem so full of contradictory rubbish nowadays that it's hard to work out just what they believe in anymore - but it doesn't come across as socialism.
 
Are cops working class is a related question- of course they're not owners of the means of production but they are I would argue tools of capital in a more direct way than civil servants who harass immigrants, snoop etc.- police are directly the footoldiers of capital.

We should still support the right of police to unionise and strike but I would argue there are genuine reasons for not actively supporting police strikes for more resources for policing for repression etc. In other words we want the police to strike but don't support their demands

We should be for more resources for the working class, for investment, for social workers, probation, mental health etc including secure facilities.

As for prison officers- they have long standing links to the police and are analogous to cops in many ways. But it's a bit more contradictory than that.
That;s why I'd agree with what you say about supporting the POA actions albeit with the qualifications I've already given- we are for saying openly prison doesn't work and for trade union and public inspection of prisons and for a totally different system.

The main thing here is that the POA actions should be an inspiration for public sector workers to take action ourselves not wait on leaders who will never lead action.
 
agricola said:
Well, the PM seems determined to kick things off again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/prisons/story/0,,2158854,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6970021.stm

One also wonders about the usefulness of talks, especially when the Government (as, to my great horror, they can do with Police) can simply ignore the result of independent arbitration anyway.
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The "offer of talks" tactic is now Standard Operating Procedure by management in any dispute: appear to offer some vaguely-defined concession to get the action called off, then stall, obfuscate and eventually renege when attention on the issue has died down and the anger/will to take action has withered away.
 
Well spotted the SW article- couldn't see it when i looked earlier- may be only just gone up oh yeah 2.12 p.m (though confusingly the top date says September 1st- anyway)

Yeah the SW have recognised some sides of the truth- that it is or should be an inspiration and that it shouldn't just be about prison officers but prsions in a wider society. However, the line all 80 000 prsioners are victims is too broad- prsion is shit, a lot of it is insitutional abuse, that promotes crime- better methods need to be found.

But we should accept that there is a need for secure or locked accomodation for a small minority of prisoners and have actual tactics to realte to this strike- such as what I posted on permanent revolution site "trade union and community inspection of prisons, better conditions for those detained, public enquiries into abuse and an end to overcrowding and other repressive measures. Such a call would of course - if it had any influence- split the POA- or at least begin to in terms of opinion within the union and militants. As I say it would probably be ignored but at least theoretically we could begin to have an influence and this would only begin to have any purchase on the basis of support for action on pay and the right to organise a union." http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1619

But to have any purchase at all I think we need to say we support the action- which SW pointedly don't- and the right to organise a union whilst raising wider questions (both of the latter they do)

The Guardian article is useful in that it shows that Brown and the ruling class see this as about wider issues of public sector pay and both NAPO and PCS have made statements- let's push in our unions for a concerted fightback and let's learn from the POs not to wait for leaders but to organise here and now in the workplaces and for decisions to be made by mass meetings not leaders behoind closed doors and their lawyers.
 
urbanrevolt said:
Hi Junius

I agree that many leftists find this issue difficult- partly for understandable reasons though because of the repressive role of prison under capitlaism. But we should support these actions as strengthening the union movement- whilst raising wider questions. Just to say support without any comment on abuses in prsion etc conditions for detainees etc would be too simplistic I think.

I don't think that's sniffy let alone hostile- merely part of an intelligent response.

If you mean the commenters- as far as I know apart from me they're all non-members though Wladek works closely with us he's not a member. (anon I guess is not a member)

I agree we all need to take the action as a lesson and inspiration. The trots on the PCS excec have a bad history and they should be exposed- but the SP is hardly revolutionary
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Playing to Junius's distortions will not win him/her to draw the necessary lessons urban.

The leader of the POA is involved in the CNWP - which does not support Junius's crude bollocks.

As for the PCS leadership - it would be more than happy if its members were willing to take this form of action. But it is a fantasy on both your's and Junius's part if you believe that the leadership is 'holding these members back'. Confidence has to be built carefully - not through fantasy 'leaders' imposing 'fantasy' ideas of how working class people 'should' behave but genuine leadership that does its best to reflect and build on what actually exists

The cheap points you both make say more about how irrelevent both of you are to the working class and the reasons why given the snide, sectarian and divisive points you both make. But its OK noone is actually listening to you outside of these forums :-)

Working class people will have to draw their own lessons from this dispute (given the lack of help for you two 'experts') - and hopefully PCS members will be among those learning important lessons.
 
poster342002 said:
The "offer of talks" tactic is now Standard Operating Procedure by management in any dispute: appear to offer some vaguely-defined concession to get the action called off, then stall, obfuscate and eventually renege when attention on the issue has died down and the anger/will to take action has withered away.
Click to expand...

I think they are kidding themselves if they think it will just go away, and in any case the dispute is (as many have noted) linked to the disputes pending with the nurses and the Police.

Besides, they are in a very strong position - not only because the Government is clearly in the wrong, but also because the system is so close to breaking point even when they are all at work.
 
agricola said:
I think they are kidding themselves if they think it will just go away, and in any case the dispute is (as many have noted) linked to the disputes pending with the nurses and the Police.

Besides, they are in a very strong position - not only because the Government is clearly in the wrong, but also because the system is so close to breaking point even when they are all at work.
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I think the govt are convinced they'll get away with it because they've done so for so long with so many other groups of workers.
 
poster342002 said:
I think the govt are convinced they'll get away with it because they've done so for so long with so many other groups of workers.
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subtext: "it's all hopeless"

(don't worry you will be able to find some way of blaming the 'trots' for it when it goes pear-shaped and therefore sleep soundly...)
 
Hi dennisr
I didn't quite say that the leadership of the PCS are holding members back- i said that the trots have a bad history- calling off pesnions strike without a ballot, letting the current dipute fritter out.

What socialists whether on the executive or not should be arguing for is members' taking action and balloting now- if elected into leadership then organise the mass meetings .

I'm not claiming the membership is forthing at the bit- some of the anger may have turned to cynicism and giving iup by now. but trust the mebers don't hold silly panels organise proper mass meetings and if the members go for it strike- yeah may be PCS and CWU and other union members will follow the POA lead- good!

I'm not claiming to be an expert- we don't need experts let's just do it ourselves- I'm just having a discussion in public-not claiming expert stauts or any other such rubbish
 
poster342002 said:
No, actually, I think they might - just might - have met their match this time.
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not with any of the sort of 'assistance' wankers - like most of the usual suspects on this thread - come out with though...

its a good thing none of you actually attempt to do feck all in practice
 
Yeah like you know anything about me or any of the others on here- well you might know some of the others but you don't know me.

I was on the picket line this morning and yesterday and tomorrow- of the menatl health workers in Manchester as it happens

I'm sure you might be OK but there's no need for crude slurs.

Anyway let's agree- organise meetings in workplaces to emulate the poa tactic
 
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