Discussion in 'education & employment' started by The cook, Mar 2, 2012.
Could anybody tell me how useful this qualification is and for which sectors it is most desirable?
I did the training, but the qualification seemed like overkill, especially since it needs to be renewed every 2 years iirc. I've seen lots of places claim to use it, especially in the govt sector, but never seen one that actually does use it. Not properly at least.
I got a few useful things out of it that I still use to this day (e.g. an approach to documenting risk logs and so forth), but as a whole, the methodology just seems like a money making scheme for its trainers and accreditors. It's probably good for bloated and inefficient management consultancies and similar, but in my field of internets and IT, it's pretty useless really.
It turns up on person specs for quite a few management jobs in the public sector but I agree with Gerry1time that it's a cash cow for trainers.
I'm fairly reliably informed that the MoD stopped trying to use it on the grounds that the 'controlled environments' were a false premise.
its useful but the current vogue is for agile
It's bollocks. How useful it is for a given job application may vary.
For a while it was known as 'Squiggle, the project managment tool formerly known as 'Prince''.
I qualified as Project Manager using PRINCE2 back in 2001 - I use some of the techniques from time to time, but frankly they are the common sense ones such as 'a bit of planning never goes amiss' and 'try communicating for a change'. Currently PM'ing 3 projects working to a Programme Director who is a PRINCE2 obsessive, it's driving me insane - weekly checkpoints reports anyone??
When I worked in the Civil Service I worked on what my then PM called a Pinapple Project - Prince in name and precious little else.
You could remind him that a weekly checkpoint report can just be a phonecall or an one line email.
Two people at our pace did it and described it as 'wishy-washy' i.e. not delivering anything earth-shatteringly useful. However I wouldnt be suprised if it ticks some boxes in the public sector if you are applying for jobs.
nice... with accompanying checkpoint documentaton and measurements against baselines?
90% of "prince" projects are what s known as PINO projects - prince in name only.
as a basis for standardisation of terminology yeah its good. but if implimented fullit can kill projects by placing an inordinate amount of admin burden on top. so much so that often you spend more time on the admin than you do on the delivery.
each project methodology has its plus and minus points. my own approach is a blend of PMP*, Prince2, Agile and common sense. with common sense being the majority stakeholder.
* only cos i am a fan of matrix based teams.
its habdy t have on your CV but anyone who has had to impliment a full blown Prince2 methodology wil understand how it can actually be a disadvantage to use in the real world.
Was in a Programme Board meeting today with a number of other experienced PM's (like me ) Our Programme Manager came away with the VERY clear understanding that we were all winding back some of the bells and whistles...the difficulty is that's he's only recently qualified and the rest of us have been round the block a few times (so to speak)
Yes it is. Agile is the new Prince2.
oh god yes
a small change to a bit of code.
actual coding time was probably about an hour. time to submit to the cleints change control process for implimentation was nearly 3 weeks due to the overhead of the documentation and approvals required. Having said this the external consultancy running the project loved it... it was all billable time... and scope amendments...
There DOES have to be some control and planning but a full blown Prince2 Environment is very very rarely justified
btw I am not a fan of strict "agile" either. with its 10 day sprints and weekly scums where scrum masters listen to their little piggywiggys.. do me a fucking favour...
I've been contemplating fairly seriously doing Prince2 foundation. In my last workplace people kept trying to rope me into project managing things, I think I like web project work (although not so much the idea of the contracting lifestyle), it goes with the UX I've been studying, and a lot of the jobs I'm attracted to have project management elements.
Googling Prince2 is a hideous experience though as it just brings up lots of commercial providers. Any advice for doing it on a budget? Should I be doing something more Agile instead?
As someone at the sharp end of projects delivered by PRINCE2 all I'll say as it doth not make a project manager nor a project. Maybe helps our management cover their backs as they couldn't commission a fucking fried egg.
a one weeker intensive starts at about 450 quid iirc. this will get you both foundation and practitioner but is meant to get you the qualification rather than teaching you project management
This is another reason it's shit. A qualification you can get in a weekend does not make you any good at managing projects.
Shit or not, it's required for very many jobs.
Quite. I've got it, did it full time in a week, and I've now got a project manager managing my workload It is good for the CV though.
I got the BCS Agile one earlier this year, far more my style, the methodology drives our old-school PM mad.
That looks cheap
e2a: the foundation, anyway.
If you need any advice on agile certs, am more than happy to offer some. Although agile isn't a methodology, and you need to learn a framework in order to apply it. The Scrum framework is 90% or so of the market right now, to the degree that people often confuse Scrum and agile, or quaintly say 'agile scrum'. Kanban's really interesting to learn too, although is a set of tools rather than a framework.If you're working on projects in the digital or web space, then agile should be where it's at really, rather than PRINCE2.
BCS Foundation course in agile is newish but well rated though. Stay well away from from PMI agile course, as the PMI very much don't get it and are just cashing in.
Does that mean you then have to go on and do a Scrum Master qualification or something?
Kanban is basically Just In Time, right?
The scrum master cert is an odd one. On one hand, it's hugely popular, something like 300,000 CSMs across the world now. On the other hand the idea that a two day course with a multiple choice test makes you an even half competent scrum master is nonsense. Not to say the cert isn't worth doing, it definitely is, as it's a great intro to scrum and many recruiters look for it, but it's only the beginning of learning, not the end. There are some great scrum masters out there who don't have the cert too.
When it comes to scrum certification, there are two main certifying bodies, scrum alliance and scrum.org. Scrum alliance are better known, they administer the CSM cert, and are all about scrum in any context. Scrum.org are far more scrum purist, less well known, and only really about scrum in the context of software. I much prefer scrum alliance, but others prefer scrum.org.
Getting into this sort of field is hard in a way, as there are lots of jobs out there, but lots of rubbish practitioners too, taking a certain percentage of the good jobs. The best way to learn is just to do it, often by trying to get a scrum project off the ground where you're working now, and learning from that. There as lots of blogs and YouTube channels out there teaching it all too.
In terms of Kanban, it's sort of hard to say. Kanban was originally just one small part of the Toyota car production system, but is now seen as an approach in itself in software, bringing in things like work in progress limits, visible policies and all the rest. Just in time is definitely part of it, but only a small part really. Again, there are tons of great videos on YouTube about Kanban if you want to learn more about it
Basically, agile, scrum, Kanban and related areas are all things you could learn loads about for free yourself. Getting a cert is handy for certain things, but many in the agile community look down on them compared with gaining actual experience, so they're not the be all and end all.
I still haven't done anything about this. The biggest problem is the totally overwhelming number of training providers, and apparently in order to find a reasonable deal you literally have to pick your way through every one of the fuckers individually and read the small print or even email them because they won't put their prices online. FFS. The whole system seems designed to confuse and deter you.
I really don't have £600 to spend.
I could do with some advise on my dilemma in this area:
I've worked in small web development/digital media startups for the last 16 years, initially as a developer then as a PM/dev manager and finally head of development. The last company decided to fold after someone else undercut us on a major client contract and so I was recently made redundant. PRINCE or Agile was rarely required/mentioned/used and we all agreed a common sense approach with quick turnarounds and little paperwork suited us best - it did, and we were generally very popular with the clients because of it.
Now, I'm in a very odd position of having loads of experience but can't legitimately put PRINCE or Agile on my CV and it's causing a huge problem when looking for jobs...
Am I fucked unless I do a Agile training course or is there another way?
I think you can put agile on your CV. It's a vague term and it sounds like you PM'd agile projects to me. It's basically common sense with quick turnaround.
Up to a point, but I suppose I'm just concerned that they might quiz me on the topic and I don't know all the terminology that goes along with Agile and come a bit unstuck in the interview process quite quickly... some recruiters seem to think it's crucial to be able to demonstrate a good working knowledge of it..
Agile (kanban mainly) is very much flavour of the month atm with peopel asking for it even when they clearly have no real idea of how it works or if its needed. I am taking my CSM certification purely because of tthis as its what people want to see. it wont change a single thing about my approcah to delivery but without it blinkered recruiters and companies wont look at the depth of experience. its a keyword they need to tick off
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