Pretty Woman - ITV Now

[Reno]

But that's the whole point of a movie - like TV it's a passive, or 'lean back' medium. You sit back and are entertained, informed etc etc - no imagination is required, and very little intellectual or emotional effort to engage with the characters, plot etc - what's required is the filmmaker create a convincign enough universe within the film that you accept it's reality (willing suspension of disbelief). In order to maintain that suspension, the filmmaker must provide emotionally satisfying characters, consistent and continuous plot (or at least the appearance of such a thing - viz Lost Highway which doesn't appear to have one but does) throughout the film.

Which is why placing deep critical analysis of a film which is basically a combination of about 2 archetypal characters/2 stories (diamond in the rough&emotionally dead king of the world, social climbing/moral redemption) could be seen as placing too heavy a critical burden on a flimsy story.

Anything I can't engage with on an emotional or intellectual level bores me at best or angers me at worst. I simply don't have that "brain off" switch that many people here claim to possess, otherwise I may just as well sit down in front of a washing machine and watch my laundry go round for entertainment. That doesn't mean I don't like popluar films, at their best I love them, but I still like to engage with whatever I see and relate it to me, my life, my aesthetics, whatever. Pretty Woman isn't the most offensive film ever, but it is contrary to my values and therefore not enjoyable to me and I also don't think that saying that is placing to heavy a critical burden on it.

 

[Blagsta]

But that's the whole point of a movie - like TV it's a passive, or 'lean back' medium.

So critical film studies is a totally meaningless academic pursuit?

 

[Leica]

But that's the whole point of a movie - like TV it's a passive, or 'lean back' medium. You sit back and are entertained, informed etc etc - no imagination is required, and very little intellectual or emotional effort to engage with the characters, plot etc - what's required is the filmmaker create a convincign enough universe within the film that you accept it's reality (willing suspension of disbelief). In order to maintain that suspension, the filmmaker must provide emotionally satisfying characters, consistent and continuous plot (or at least the appearance of such a thing - viz Lost Highway which doesn't appear to have one but does) throughout the film.

Which is why placing deep critical analysis of a film which is basically a combination of about 2 archetypal characters/2 stories (diamond in the rough&emotionally dead king of the world, social climbing/moral redemption) could be seen as placing too heavy a critical burden on a flimsy story.

I don't agree.

(a) The experience of seeing a film is not passive and it is a lot more complicated than what you describe. Seeing is not a passive activity.

(b) Movies, like dreams, are about imagination and their perception takes place in the mind.

(c) Nobody but you has attempted any critical analysis of Pretty Woman in this thread. People are just saying whether they liked it or not and presenting arguments based on personal experience.

(d) You say that it is too much of a critical burden to attempt an analysis, yet you proceed to analyse the plot into archetypes/stories/whatever -- a formalist academic analysis that in fact doesn't offer a better understanding of the movie.

 

[twistedAM]

Is it any better or worse than any Julia Roberts films?? I'd watch them all cos there's just something about her and i suspect that's why her movies were popular as everyone I knew would have.....

Also anyone ever see that documentray about her and endangered oran utangs (sp??)??

 

[Reno]

Is it any better or worse than any Julia Roberts films?? I'd watch them all cos there's just something about her and i suspect that's why her movies were popular as everyone I knew would have.....

It's worse than most. Nobody has had any complaints about her performance and she doesn't appear to be the reason why people dislike Pretty Woman. She's been in lots of different films of varying quality, btw.

 

[Jazzz]

.. and what's Cinderella?

.. exactly.. the story of a poor girl working girl meeting a rich and handsome, but feckless prince.

Love crossing boundaries.

Prick.

Wrong way around GP

It is the story of the girl crossing the boundary, being transformed into a 'princess' that is the crux of Cinderella.

 

[muser]

It's a dumb movie, alright.

But vile? I don't agree.

It depends on how you read the subtext.. the consensus on here seems to be that it's aspirational, somehow:

Become a prostitute and bag a millionaire.

But another interpretation might be:

Even a prostitute can find love and have it all.

In other words "keep your head up and your eyes open and your mister right will come along."

Not a deeply philosophical point of view, but certainly not a vile one.

exactly, all these sanctimonious posters extolling virtues none of them possess is what's I find really vile (IMHO).

 

[muser]

Anything I can't engage with on an emotional or intellectual level bores me at best or angers me at worst. I simply don't have that "brain off" switch that many people here claim to possess, otherwise I may just as well sit down in front of a washing machine and watch my laundry go round for entertainment. That doesn't mean I don't like popluar films, at their best I love them, but I still like to engage with whatever I see and relate it to me, my life, my aesthetics, whatever. Pretty Woman isn't the most offensive film ever, but it is contrary to my values and therefore not enjoyable to me and I also don't think that saying that is placing to heavy a critical burden on it.

PW has often been disparagingly described as 'tart with a heart'.
If we take the film "the beat that my heart skipped", a film you described as being "one of the best films in the last ten years", couldn't you reduce its plot to 'thug with a heart'. Even down to the piano playing 'sensitive' aspect of romain duris. Theres even parallels between miao lin's character and that of viven in the film, which begs the question how can you hold one in high esteem and dismiss the other.

 

[Leica]

He was talking about Read My Lips.

But I like The Beat That My Heart Skipped and could explain where your post is going wrong, if you are interested.

 

[muser]

He was talking about Read My Lips.

But I like The Beat That My Heart Skipped and could explain where your post is going wrong, if you are interested.

You could be right about the former as I can't now found his glowing appraisal of De battre mon coeur s'est arrêté.

leica you don't need my permission to enlighten me.

may I say you're very patronising.

 

[Louloubelle]

I had a conversation from a woman from an American project working with street sex workers and she said that the greatest influence on young girls travelling from rurual areas to the big city to become street sex workers was the film Pretty Woman.

She was very angry about the film and saw it as a recruitment video for street prostitution.

Obviously, when the women start to work on the streets, their experiences are very, very different to the film. They often complained about this to the staff of the project.

It might appear obvious to anyone that a film is just a film, but I think that people are underestimating the power of films to influence people, especially vulnerable young women and girls who are desperate to get away from their boring rural lives and familes (for whatever reasons).


ETA

Risky Business was very dubious too

 

[Leica]

leica you don't need my permission to enlighten me. may I say you're very patronising.

Well I thought I'd ask first, as you were addressing your argument to someone else.

All I mean when I say that there are things wrong with your post, is that I don't agree with your reasoning. I wasn't implying that we have to always agree, or that my opinion was better.

Now, about the films. Your premises are incorrect. First of all, I don't think the reason most people on the thread dislike Pretty Woman is because it is about a "tart with a heart". Secondly, The Beat... cannot be reduced to "thug with a heart" or to any other catchy phrase either. It is not as simple as that, and the two films have far more differences than similarities so it would be pointless to compare them.

 

[Reno]

He was talking about Read My Lips.

But I like The Beat That My Heart Skipped and could explain where your post is going wrong, if you are interested.

There is no point in having a discussion with the "muser" as he puts precious little thought into anything he says. Not only does he get the film wrong that I was talking about, he then fabricates a completely idiotic argument on my behalf for what are supposed to be the reasons for why I dislike Pretty Woman and like The Beat That My Heart Skipped (unlike Pretty Woman a film of great moral complexity). I'm not going to engage in a discussion with him about it as he's again revealed himself to be a complete muppet and arguing with him is a waste of time.

 

[muser]

Well I thought I'd ask first, as you were addressing your argument to someone else.

All I mean when I say that there are things wrong with your post, is that I don't agree with your reasoning. I wasn't implying that we have to always agree, or that my opinion was better.

Now, about the films. Your premises are incorrect. First of all, I don't think the reason most people on the thread dislike Pretty Woman is because it is about a "tart with a heart". Secondly, The Beat... cannot be reduced to "thug with a heart" or to any other catchy phrase either. It is not as simple as that, and the two films have far more differences than similarities so it would be pointless to compare them.

Why are they incomparable?
Both male leads are sensitive anti heroes, who similarly falls in love. Gere and romain are presented as misogynist, exemplified by their sexual prowess. Both from broken homes\families (in gere's case he's an orphan).
Each ruthless pursue financial gain, albeit in different spheres of the class divide.
The only differences seem to lie in the emotional attachment we elicit for either depiction of what is essentially the same coin.

 

[Leica]

Why are they incomparable?
Both male leads are sensitive anti heroes, who similarly falls in love. Gere and romain are presented as misogynist, exemplified by their sexual prowess. Both from broken homes\families (in gere's case he's an orphan).
Each ruthless pursue financial gain, albeit in different spheres of the class divide.
The only differences seem to lie in the emotional attachment we elicit for either depiction of what is essentially the same coin.

Erm no, we have a totally different understanding of the two movies in question.

 

[muser]

free vimto - we miss you

There is no point in having a discussion with the "muser" as he puts precious little thought into anything he says. Not only does he get the film wrong that I was talking about, he then fabricates a completely idiotic argument on my behalf for what are supposed to be the reasons for why I dislike Pretty Woman and like The Beat That My Heart Skipped (unlike Pretty Woman a film of great moral complexity). I'm not going to engage in a discussion with him about it as he's again revealed himself to be a complete muppet and arguing with him is a waste of time.

the last discussion we had you resorted to "I live on this piece of land, you can't tell me what goes on here, if you live over there" nonsense.
If that is the depth of your critical analysis then its no wonder you find me reprehensible.

 

[muser]

Erm no, we have a totally different understanding of the two movies in question.

I'm in work all alone, so please forgive my obsessive nature in regard to this question.
Please explain what you mean by the above. What is your understanding of the two film, and do you agree, factually, my synopsis is correct.

 

[Leica]

I'm in work all alone, so please forgive my obsessive nature in regard to this question.
Please explain what you mean by the above. What is your understanding of the two film, and do you agree that factually, my synopsis is correct.

I am working too, and I haven't got time to explain in detail why our perceptions are not shared. But please take my word for it. I really don't recognise the Romain Duris character in your description.

 

[muser]

I am working too, and I haven't got time to explain in detail why our perceptions are not shared. But please take my word for it. I really don't recognise the Romain Duris character in your description.

I think we must be watching two different films then

 

[Leica]

Must be watching different films then

Oh yes.

Which also disproves sideways kyser_soze's theory that seeing a film is passive entertainment.

 

[oddworld]

I'd forgotten about this thread and have just come back to re-read it and all I can say is

People are far too serious.

 

[Leica]

the last discussion we had you resorted to "I live on this piece of land, you can't tell me what goes on here, if you live over there" nonsense.
If that is the depth of your critical analysis then its no wonder you find me reprehensible.

To be fair though, muser, you do sometimes seem to inhabit a different land. It is impossible for two people to agree when they don't stand on common ground.

 

[muser]

To be fair though, muser, you do sometimes seem to inhabit a different land. It is impossible for two people to agree when they don't stand on common ground.

Fact is independent of individual views, so talking of differing opinion is tactless. I provided the facts and you've tried to stupefy, the discussion with your insolence.

 

[Dubversion]

my favourite thing on urban ever is when muser decides to share his wisdom with us.

"stupefy, the discussion with your insolence"

priceless

 

[muser]

my favourite thing on urban ever is when muser decides to share his wisdom with us.

"stupefy, the discussion with your insolence"

priceless

tell me where my grammatical errors are, failing that, engage me on anything I've actually posted. We both know you can't do either, so run along and play with the other kids.

 

[Dubversion]

heh

 

[muser]

heh

you don't fool me, under that butch exterior lies a kitten waiting to be loved

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

I liked it when I first watched it. I doubt that it's caused many women to become prostitutes, but in some weird person's world it's probably the cause of the Ipswich murders.

Perhaps I should refuse to watch Sky, or the news, because of the 'message'.

I like a film because it's enjoyable usually. I don't give a fuck about 'the message'. Only someone trying to be offended would be offended.

 

[nonamenopackdrill]

I'd forgotten about this thread and have just come back to re-read it and all I can say is

People are far too serious.

Agree

 

[sheothebudworths]

Yup!

not this lady, i think it's a pile of stinking shit.

heh heh