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Pretend ASBO

Edie

Well-Known Member
Hey my eldest got served one of these by the Anti Social Behavioural Team. It’s not a police document so far as I can tell and he’s (genuinely for once) not done owt wrong.

It forbids him from entering about 10 properties (basically a cul de sac) of council flats directly opposite our house. There was a problem flat where they’d housed this kiddie (19 epilepsy and learning difficulty) and it had become one of those hangouts for kids to sell drugs and cause trouble. Next doors grandson (who is a right shifty little cunt in his early 20s) was involved. They’ve evicted him now and served these orders.

Anyway, I can guarantee you my boy has not been there. I just know he hasn’t. He’s been targeted by association cos he used to hang out with three lads up til a year ago who’ve been involved. But that isn’t fair and he’s outraged and upset cos he’s NOT been getting into bother. Is it worth me challenging or should I just chuck it in the bin?
 

keithy

or queefy
Does he need to go to those places listed?

I'd be writing to that Philip hopton about the effec5 of criminalising young ppl and asking for evidence.
 

Edie

Well-Known Member
Does he need to go to those places listed?

I'd be writing to that Philip hopton about the effec5 of criminalising young ppl and asking for evidence.
Well it’s literally across the street. It’s like he can’t walk on the other side of the road.

When the blokes came to serve it I was at work and apparently there was a bit of a scene and he got indignant and told them to eff off so the police came next with it (I was in).
 

dessiato

Because I could not stop for death
If I were him I'd ask for evidence of his involvement in any anti-social activity.

But I'd also expect none to be given other than "because I said so."

But I've neither experience nor knowledge of how these things work.

Good luck to him. There's nothing worse than being accused of, and punished for, something of which you are not guilty.
 
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JuanTwoThree

Spurius Bollox
So the council is writing to a council tenant that if they go onto another piece of council land it will be a breach of their tenancy to do so, but there is no injunction yet.

On the one hand someone is being told not to do something they don't do. Which is a bit like being a non-smoker told not to smoke.

On the other, the first lines suggest a certainty that the person was at these addresses, which is the separate problem of a false accusation. is that worth pursuing?

I am not a lawyer.
 

farmerbarleymow

Seagull + Chips = Happy Seagull
I'd ask for the evidence that they used to justify this notice. It isn't clear whether they alleged that your son Edie was involved when they took the matter to court, or are just issuing notices now they have the closure order.

You can also request copies of your personal data through the good old Subject Access route. If your son is over the age of twelve he can do so in his own right, or provide written authority for you to do so on his behalf.

There are also other rights that you can exercise, such as requesting incorrect data being corrected. More information is here. There are some limitations on these rights, depending on what basis for processing the data is being relied on by the council. PM me if you need more advice on this.
 

mauvais

change has become unavoidable
I am not a lawyer.

This notice is a few things in one, almost all relating to civil law and process, not criminal charges.

For trespass to be a workable charge, you need to have been told not to enter into the property in question in some form, and this is that form. If he breaches that restriction, a case could be pursued against him. Trespass is hard work for limited gain and this is probably unlikely to happen.

It's also a warning that this alleged behaviour puts your tenancy at risk. That doesn't legally change anything, you didn't need to be notified first, it's just an indication of how they might try and handle these problems, i.e. evictions.

The only thing relating to criminal law is the closure order itself. However they haven't made a big deal about this I guess because they're limited in nature.

If I were you, I would be mostly concerned about the risk to the tenancy from the council viewing you as a problem and taking related action in future. I'd be seeking to discuss that in a cooperative way.

Unless your lad incurs some kind of disadvantage by not being able to access these properties, I'd be less fussed about getting that rescinded, but try and keep him in compliance to avoid any hassle.
 

marty21

One on one? You're crazy.
I'd ask for the evidence that they used to justify this notice. It isn't clear whether they alleged that your son Edie was involved when they took the matter to court, or are just issuing notices now they have the closure order.

You can also request copies of your personal data through the good old Subject Access route. If your son is over the age of twelve he can do so in his own right, or provide written authority for you to do so on his behalf.

There are also other rights that you can exercise, such as requesting incorrect data being corrected. More information is here. There are some limitations on these rights, depending on what basis for processing the data is being relied on by the council. PM me if you need more advice on this.
Didn't see the Closure Order bit :oops: I have been involved with those, they prevent any unauthorised person from entering a property with a power of arrest attached. I haven't seen an order attached to the Closure Order attached to an individual as the Closure Order should cover all unauthorised persons .
 

Edie

Well-Known Member
I did ask what evidence they had when the police come round. Apparently it’s a police photograph of my son and his two new mates (not the bad lads) stood outside the flat. From approx two months ago. I asked my son about this and he said yeah they did go over but didn’t go in.

This is all making me anxious cos when he fell out with the bad lads last October it got pretty nasty. They were threatening to stab him and I was trying to take him up to school all the days I don’t work. They then started chucking shit at my house (eggs, stones etc) which I done my best to ignore.

The final straw was when they did my tyres. I went out to drive to work and couldn’t. I then lost it and called the police and headteacher cos as far as I was concerned there was a kiddie with a knife out there and it scared me. The police went round their houses, and in retribution for that they shot my sons window with an air rifle and broke it and smashed my shed door in.

Throughout all this I’ve been keeping my cool and just telling myself thank bloody God it’s not my son involved, and none of us are hurt, but it’s cost me a lot of money. I’ve just told my son to stay away from them AND HE HAS.

But now after that eviction someone’s put the hedge across the street up (big fire, dripping from the phone wires, two fire trucks). And they’ve started on at my house again, in my back garden. Obviously I’m a single Mum and honestly I try and not let it show (to the kids or to these fucking pricks) but it scares me. They’re not all 14/15. Some of them are men in their 20s or even a lot older who I think have been dealing, I know cos my bedroom window overlooks it and I see them pulling up in expensive cars and the kids getting out iyswim.

So it really bloody grates that my son gets served this order when he’s just not involved with these people any more!
 

Athos

Well-Known Member
Personally irritating for you and your son, no doubt. And an example of an overreaching state acting arbitrarily with no regard for the principles of natural justice. But, if it was me, I'd not waste too much time and energy to seriously challenge it (since he doesn't want to go there or mix with those kids, and given they're at least trying to protect a vulnerable person).

All I'd do would be to send a recorded delivery letter explaining that, whilst I have no intention of visiting that address, I completely refute the allegation that I had caused a nuisance, and point out that the thinly veiled threat to the security of my housing situation amounts to an attempt to interfere with my right to a private life under article 8 of the ECHR, which, in the absence of any due process (i.e. an opportunity for me to dispute the allegation) is unlikely to be withstand any legal challenge.

I'd also query the purported Closure Order, as the letter says it was made by the County Court whereas I'd thought, under s.80 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, it had to be the mags. Similarly, it purports to be "until further notice" but the legislation limits it to a three month maximum term. Though I'm not really sure about the law in this area, but some others here might be.

Also, I'd include within the letter a data subject access request for any data relating to me in respect of this incident.

And I'd ask that they stop harassing me but sending menacing letters purporting to have legal effect, but point out that I'd be happy to have a sensible constructive dialogue should they do wish.
 
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Poot

Everyone's a superhero, everyone's a Captain Kirk
Bloody hell Edie that's not fair at all. Is there any chance AT ALL that you might be able to move house? Not that you should have to obviously, but it's an obvious way to solve quite a lot of problems at once. Any possibility?
 

Edie

Well-Known Member
Bloody hell Edie that's not fair at all. Is there any chance AT ALL that you might be able to move house? Not that you should have to obviously, but it's an obvious way to solve quite a lot of problems at once. Any possibility?
No I love my house!
 

Grump

Well-Known Member
You say he hasn't been there, then you say he has, but didn't go in, and he was a friend of those who did go in. Why not just accept he was up to no good, even if he was only involved in a small way. The authorities are trying to protect a vulnerable person who has been targeted by your son's friends, and maybe your son as well. Put your energy into making sure your son stays out of trouble rather than seeing him as a victim.
 

marty21

One on one? You're crazy.
Personally irritating for you and your son, no doubt. And an example of an overreaching state acting arbitrarily with no regard for the principles of natural justice. But, if it was me, I'd not waste too much time and energy to seriously challenge it.

All I'd do would be to send a recorded delivery letter explaining that, whilst I have no intention of visiting that address, I completely refute the allegation that I had caused a nuisance, and point out that the thinly veiled threat to the security of my housing situation amounts to an attempt to interfere with my right to a private life under article 8 of the ECHR, which, in the absence of any due process (i.e. an opportunity for me to dispute the allegation) is unlikely to be withstand any legal challenge.

I'd also query the purported Closure Order, as the letter says it was made by the County Court whereas I'd thought, under s.80 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, it had to be the mags. Similarly, it purports to be "until further notice" but the legislation limits it to a three month maximum term. Though I'm not really sure about the law in this area, but studied others here might be.

Also, I'd include within the letter a data subject access request for any data relating to me in respect of this incident.

And I'd ask that they stop harassing me but sending menacing letters purporting to have legal effect, but point out that I'd be happy to have a sensible constructive dialogue should they do wish.
All the Closure Orders I have been involved with have been at a Magistrate's Court .
 

cupid_stunt

Dyslexic King Cnut ... the Great.
You say he hasn't been there, then you say he has, but didn't go in, and he was a friend of those who did go in. Why not just accept he was up to no good, even if he was only involved in a small way. The authorities are trying to protect a vulnerable person who has been targeted by your son's friends, and maybe your son as well. Put your energy into making sure your son stays out of trouble rather than seeing him as a victim.
How the fuck can you draw that conclusion?

Besides, Edie said, that he hadn't been IN the flat, having a photo taken of him outside the flat doesn't change that.
 

Edie

Well-Known Member
You say he hasn't been there, then you say he has, but didn't go in, and he was a friend of those who did go in. Why not just accept he was up to no good, even if he was only involved in a small way. The authorities are trying to protect a vulnerable person who has been targeted by your son's friends, and maybe your son as well. Put your energy into making sure your son stays out of trouble rather than seeing him as a victim.
Because he hasn’t! That isn’t the situation!
 

Mrs Miggins

There's been a slight cheese accident
I did ask what evidence they had when the police come round. Apparently it’s a police photograph of my son and his two new mates (not the bad lads) stood outside the flat. From approx two months ago. I asked my son about this and he said yeah they did go over but didn’t go in.

This is all making me anxious cos when he fell out with the bad lads last October it got pretty nasty. They were threatening to stab him and I was trying to take him up to school all the days I don’t work. They then started chucking shit at my house (eggs, stones etc) which I done my best to ignore.

The final straw was when they did my tyres. I went out to drive to work and couldn’t. I then lost it and called the police and headteacher cos as far as I was concerned there was a kiddie with a knife out there and it scared me. The police went round their houses, and in retribution for that they shot my sons window with an air rifle and broke it and smashed my shed door in.

Throughout all this I’ve been keeping my cool and just telling myself thank bloody God it’s not my son involved, and none of us are hurt, but it’s cost me a lot of money. I’ve just told my son to stay away from them AND HE HAS.

But now after that eviction someone’s put the hedge across the street up (big fire, dripping from the phone wires, two fire trucks). And they’ve started on at my house again, in my back garden. Obviously I’m a single Mum and honestly I try and not let it show (to the kids or to these fucking pricks) but it scares me. They’re not all 14/15. Some of them are men in their 20s or even a lot older who I think have been dealing, I know cos my bedroom window overlooks it and I see them pulling up in expensive cars and the kids getting out iyswim.

So it really bloody grates that my son gets served this order when he’s just not involved with these people any more!
Shit Edie thay's bloody horrific having to live with all that.
Feels more like *you* should be sending threatening letters to the police and the council to insist they protect you and your family and sort these fucking people out rather than the other way around.
 

Athos

Well-Known Member
All the Closure Orders I have been involved with have been at a Magistrate's Court .
Yeah, that was my understanding, but, considering the letter talks about a non- existent tenancy, the court point seems less surprising, now!
 

Mrs Miggins

There's been a slight cheese accident
It's just a blanket letter from someone at the council who cannot even be arsed to find out whether the properties actually are council properties or not. Feels like a sweeping judgement about all the kids on the street is being made. To be fair, the council employee in question probably doesn't have all the facts and probably doesn't have the time to do anything about getting them. Or just doesn't care.
 

SpookyFrank

Self-cleaning oven, the whole bit.
Methinks this kind of bullshit is what they do instead of actually dealing with anti social behaviour in a way that addressed actual causes, engaged with the people involved etc.

It reads like it was written by a simple person who once read an actual legal notice and thought they'd have a crack at it.
 
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