Portrait of Muhammad as a young dog

[Random]

If those protesting against the pictures were racists, (im assuming here you mean racist muslims) I wouldnt seek to repress them, no.

aha - so 'Their views are illegitimate. Ban them, kick the shit out of them, fuck em', but don't ask me to do it, guv...might look a bit odd.

Cos knowing what religious communities that feel under threat are like

I doubt that Musharaff or Ahmedinajab are really under much threat, do you?

 

[camouflage]

Maybe he isnt a racist, maybe hes just an idiot, and a smug pretentious wanker trying to get his name in the press. Is there no more subtle way of criticising religion? Looking through every form of media since 9/11, I hadnt realised there was a shortage of debate about religion and criticism of it. Quite the opposite.

If those protesting against the pictures were racists, (im assuming here you mean racist muslims) I wouldnt seek to repress them, no. Cos knowing what religious communities that feel under threat are like, getting attacked in such a blunt fashion from what they view as an outsider (ie a white Marxist atheist like myself from a catholic community) would simply be seen as another attack from a european western culture. It would simply make the community turn even more inward on itself and do more damage. I would hope criticism of that racism would come from within that community, and why should it not? If you think it wouldnt youre treaching some dodgy conclusions, which if you follow the logic are pretty nasty.

What in incredably patronizing double standard load of shite. Suspiciously straw-man in my opinion, your stance invites the question of why a 'threatened community' would choose to come and live in the lands of the "Outsider" in the first place yes?

 

[Random]

your stance invites the question of why a 'threatened community' would choose to come and live in the lands of the "Outsider" in the first place yes?

oh come on now. There are lots of Iraqis in Sweden for a reason, foreigner - think about it. The islamic protests in Sweden have stopped now - probably because people here have more context to the story than people being told a bunch of half truths about what's happening by politicians.

 

[grogwilton]

This old 'youre patronising' attack is it?

If you want to close your eyes to the fact that communities like this do exist and they do act in these ways, because it doesnt fit in with your political beliefs, then be my guest.

You wont mind if a load of Anti Nazi League students parachute into Barking and Dagenham then will you, because white working class communities dont exist, only groups of friends and family. In fact, not parachuting Unite Against Facism people in would be patronising.

Left groups (rightly imo) get criticised for the above mistakes of some anti fascist groups, and the exact same is true when dealing with muslim areas.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you want to close your eyes to the fact that communities like this do exist and they do act in these ways, because it doesnt fit in with your political beliefs, then be my guest.

I wouldn't close my eyes. I would challenge them directly. I would say: your beliefs and values should be as much a subject for criticism as mine. That's the kind of free society I wish to live in and DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE TRY TO IMPINGE ON MY LIBERTY WITH YOUR IDIOTIC MEDIEVAL SUPERSTITIONS.

 

[camouflage]

This old 'youre patronising' attack is it?

If you want to close your eyes to the fact that communities like this do exist and they do act in these ways, because it doesnt fit in with your political beliefs, then be my guest.

You wont mind if a load of Anti Nazi League students parachute into Barking and Dagenham then will you, because white working class communities dont exist, only groups of friends and family. In fact, not parachuting Unite Against Facism people in would be patronising.

Left groups (rightly imo) get criticised for the above mistakes of some anti fascist groups, and the exact same is true when dealing with muslim areas.

I'm sorry, I have done you a diservice, I attacked you because I thought your argument made a kind of sense, and I was against the sense I thought you were making.

Now I see that you aren't making any sense at all.

 

[grogwilton]

Again, we mustn't criticise the poor precious dears. They might do themselves an injury.

This is utter crap. All belief systems should be subject to exactly the same level of scrutiny as a scientific paper. Full fucking stop.

By the way, what is 'a white Marxist atheist like myself from a catholic community'? There is far too much lazy use of the word community at the moment. I, for one, do not know my neighbours, do not identify with one particular belief system, race or nationality. My community is either my family and friends or the entire human race. To try to attach me to any sub-group in between would be meaningless.

The fact that you dont know your neighbours, and your community consists of just your friends and family or the human race, says to be honest, more about you and the area you live then it does about conceptions of community. I know my neighbours, and a fait few people on my estate, most of which I wouldnt consider friends, cos I dont socialise with them, but I know their names, family members etc. Most of the people in my area all went to the same school and I know a lot of people that way. Then theres the people I know from speaking to people in the pub I work. Thats what a community is.

 

[rhys gethin]

What conceivable 'right' is being infringed if we advise nazis not to start fights in which people will be killed? WHO has this desperate personal need to insult other people's Prophet? Why is rachamim rushing in to support these nordic racists? What a predictable lot of fascist vomit!

 

[grogwilton]

I wouldn't close my eyes. I would challenge them directly. I would say: your beliefs and values should be as much a subject for criticism as mine. That's the kind of free society I wish to live in and DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE TRY TO IMPINGE ON MY LIBERTY WITH YOUR IDIOTIC MEDIEVAL SUPERSTITIONS.

And its exactly this aggressive, patronising view of religion and people with religion that smug liberals hold which does so much damage to the atheist cause. Youve just shown me exactly what kind of atheist you are and how you try and argue atheism. And Im saying you and your Ilk are a big problem in lessening the influence of religion, with muslims or otherwise.

Foerigner: Do you live in the UK? Have you even glanced at the other p&p forums where certain anti fascist groups are criticised ON THESE BOARDS for mistakes they have made in white working class communities? If you have no knowledg of Barking and Dagenham, the problems of Fascims in certain areas of the UK, and the mistakes anti fascist groups have made here, then no, that last post will not make any sense to you.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And its exactly this aggressive, patronising view of religion and people with religion that smug liberals hold which does so much damage to the atheist cause. Youve just shown me exactly what kind of atheist you are and how you try and argue atheism.

I'm not 'arguing atheism'. I am defending free speech against those who would have their 'faith' given special immunity from criticism.

 

[grogwilton]

I'm not 'arguing atheism'. I am defending free speech against those who would have their 'faith' given special immunity from criticism.

Thats great, and the best way of defending free speech is by defending an obvious attempt at provocation (by a guy trying to get his name in the papers) aimed at a religion that feels (at least in part) under threat because people that believe in that religion are the subject of brutal occupation in four geographical areas by nations that claim to be followers of a mixture of christianity, atheism and liberty? Im sure the holy pillars of western 'free speech' wont collapse if you ignore a self publicising swedish muppet. Tell me, did you kick up such a fuss in favour of 'free speech' when those young Islamists in London got two years imprisonment for saying (repeat SAYING, not actually DOING) that non believers should be killed?

 

[camouflage]

Thats great, and the best way of defending free speech is by defending an obvious attempt at provocation (by a guy trying to get his name in the papers) aimed at a religion that feels (at least in part) under threat because people that believe in that religion are the subject of brutal occupation in four geographical areas by nations that claim to be followers of a mixture of christianity, atheism and liberty? Im sure the holy pillars of western 'free speech' wont collapse if you ignore a self publicising swedish muppet. Tell me, did you kick up such a fuss in favour of 'free speech' when those young Islamists in London got two years imprisonment for saying (repeat SAYING, not actually DOING) that non believers should be killed?

Yes, because a badly drawn cartoon of 'mohammed' with the body of a dog is the same as encouraging people to behead muslims.

You seem to be saying that muslim supremacism should be excused because they're muslims and can't help it, but that any form of anti-religionism gets directed at islam should be considered the racism of white liberals and slammed as unacceptable.

Is that your position? What about Nigerian christians rioting against the imposition of Sharia law or the oppresion of Iraqi Christians and Zoroastrians or pagans and non-beleivers in various majority islamic countries or non-muslim low-wage workers in Saudi Arabia who aren't permited to express their culture beause to do so would be unislamic, are they all sneery white liberals too? I think you see islam too much through the lense of a very specific corner of the Western view-point where everything is either pro-BNP or pro-Anti-Fascist league. That's fair enough, but religion's not strictly a local issue, and people can have very non local reasons for wanting the freedom to criticize or resist relgion and ideology generaly. For instance, I'm pretty sure modern Zionism sucks, but I'm not against jewish people, or even the state of Isreal (provided it was inclusive).

Yes, there are alot of dodgy sorts out there using anti-islamism as code for send "the bloody brahn'uns 'ome", but there are also alot of dodgy people using relgion to define their own supremacist agenda (one of religions main uses in my opinion). People like that should be able to be smacked down on the field of debate and words without being able to hide behind accusations of racism, it's ridiculous when whites do it becaus "immigrants are getting all our rights, the governemnt is anti-white!" or something, and it's ridiculous when people do it in terms of islam. It's simply not a black and white issue.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Tell me, did you kick up such a fuss in favour of 'free speech' when those young Islamists in London got two years imprisonment for saying (repeat SAYING, not actually DOING) that non believers should be killed?

Yep, I did. You can't get me on that one.

 

[grogwilton]

No foreigner that is not my position. My position is that in western european countries, particularly in the current climate, it is better for people looking to undermine illiberal beliefs in the muslim faith to do so by offering genuine solidarity with people that follow Islam (a religion that is, when all is said and done treated pretty badly in the western press, and many communities, and if you dont believe that walk into any pub and listen for a while) FIRST, and then if you have criticisms they should come second, and they should be done in non confrontational way. The same way a white working class community that has and might be voting for fascism should be offered solidarity first.

As for other communities in other countries, its a hypothetical question, theres no way Im going to be able to do anything about that anyway. I think the oppression of Chritians in the middle east and Islamic countries has and will get worse as the war on terror continues, and the best thing I as a westerner can do to stop that is to end the war on terror. Finally, I find it pretty galling when people get all worked up about some Muslims burning flags and petrol bombing a few embassy courtyards, when Britian has invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and bombed the shit out of both, and continuosly ignore the brutal actions against the palestinians and Checnyans. Generally I find that the people who get all angry about these protests dont have any criticism for British imperialism, and if they do, they do f*ck all to stop it.

Finally, I dont agree with people that say that the holding of an Occidentalist view of the west is as bad as the west holding an Orientalist view of the middle east and Islam. That is a liberal view. Ultimately it IS the west that is at fault for the situation, because it is us who STARTED the military, economic and cultural imperialism that led to the current situation, and us who continues to exert the greatest amount of power in international affairs.

 

[likesfish]

but killing people cause somebody drew a nasty widdle cartoon in a country a long way away makes you a medieval fuckwit.
as the case of the nun who was murdered in Somali

I loathe islam because it appears to me to be intolerant and backward

 

[grogwilton]

but killing people cause somebody drew a nasty widdle cartoon in a country a long way away makes you a medieval fuckwit.
as the case of the nun who was murdered in Somali

I loathe islam because it appears to me to be intolerant and backward

By that logic, the whole of western civilisation is also intolerant and backward because they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[goldenecitrone]

By that logic, the whole of western civilisation is also intolerant and backward because they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yeah, Saddam Hussein was famous for his grotesque water colour paintings of Jesus bumming George Bush.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, Saddam Hussein was famous for his grotesque water colour paintings of Jesus bumming George Bush.

 

[camouflage]

By that logic, the whole of western civilisation is also intolerant and backward because they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

Joke for ya.

Muslim goes for a swim in the sea, get's attacked by a shark, as he struggles and splashes in the reddening water he asks "It's because I'm a muslim isn't it, you sharks hate muslims!" Meanwhile up in the catholic heaven a Nicaraguan looks down and says "Yeah, they hate muslims them sharks", and over in buddist heaven (nirvana) next cloud over a Vietnamese agrees "Yeah, it's all about the Islam with them sharks..."

 

[Random]

What conceivable 'right' is being infringed if we advise nazis not to start fights in which people will be killed? WHO has this desperate personal need to insult other people's Prophet? Why is rachamim rushing in to support these nordic racists? What a predictable lot of fascist vomit!

Nazis and nordic racists? Sounds like knee-jerk anti-scandinavianism to me.

 

[Random]

I loathe islam because it appears to me to be intolerant and backward

I loathe christianity, buddhism, hinduism and judaism for possessing similar characteristics. And I like those faiths for possessing a lack of such characteristics.

 

[Random]

Joke for ya.

maybe i'm missing something, but it doesn't seem to be much of a joke.

 

[camouflage]

Yeah I know, very very poor. I didn't create it if that's what you're thinking. But anyway the point stands, imperialism doesn't really care about the religion of who it attacks, and anyway there've been islamic empires- by the way some people talk you'd think Islam is the opposite of Imperialism, or as if Imperialism is the religion of the West vs Islam, the religion of the... East. It's as annoying an argument as equating athiesm with Stalinism or Hitler or something. Anyway religion sometimes plays a role in making excuses to do imperialist attacks, but not in this case. The whole Al Qaeda-type contemporary islamic militarism was actually invented by the US in Afgansitan, and Isreal using Hamas to undermine the more threatening and progressive Arab nationalism of the PLO. And way before that allied with and propaganderd by the nazi's against the jews.

For instance Nasser and his dreams of a modern Arab superstate were far more scary to Isreal and the West then a bunch of aggitated repressive imams wanting to create some kind of backward sharia-state. Arming these people and training them up and getting them organized was like letting loose the dogs of war, no one thought they'd actually be able to build anything, they didn't see the Islamic Revolution in Iran coming for instance, whoo'da thought some Ayatolla could overthrow one of the most powerful modern pro-western regimes in the ME at the time, zealots and Fanatics usually just smash things up and burn people right?

 

[likesfish]

but irans shia
and alq are sunni
bout as relevant as the uvf and the ira joining forces a irish based christian terrorist orgs

I'll tolerate islam when its believers stop threating to kill anyone who dos'
nt like

until then there medieval fuckwits
you don't have to respect my beliefs I won't respect yours.
mind you anyone who thinks rubbing bacon fat on a mosque flushing Korans down
toilets needs a kicking
so I'm a hypocrite islamofuckwits have a right to go through life beliving what they like as long as it does'nt hurt other people

 

[dylanredefined]

It look like a very badly drawn cartoon which was only drawn to offend.I do hope he get hassle over it as its rubbish art and frankly if you want to provoke a debate you could at least do some decent art.

 

[rhys gethin]

Nazis and nordic racists? Sounds like knee-jerk anti-scandinavianism to me.

No - I don't think so. Anyone in his right mind fights for 'free speech' when it is something about expressing people's real interests, but not when it is mere bullying aggression. You have the 'right' to come to my house and shout obscenities at my mother, wife or children, perhaps? Well perhaps, but I shall certainly kick the shit out of you for doing so, and bugger your 'free speech' - and if I can't do it myself, I'll go and get my mates to help! The people who deliberately insult a weaker minority they think can't afford to fight back are in exactly the same position as Hitler's storm-troopers in Germany. 'Anti-Scandinavianism', my arse! I am an old-fashioned anti-nazi, and I know the jackboot boys when I see them.

 

[grogwilton]

So some nutjob decides to kill a nun and says its in the name of Islam- and Likes fish blames:Islam.

Some nutters invade Iraq and kill thousands of people 'in the name of democracy', and some Muslims nutters blame: western democracy.

I was just pointing out that likesfish is as nutty as the muslim nutters he tars the whole of Islam with.




And I found it interesting how neither you, goldencitrone, or you, littlebabyjesus, picked him up on it.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So some nutjob decides to kill a nun and says its in the name of Islam- and Likes fish blames:Islam.

Some nutters invade Iraq and kill thousands of people 'in the name of democracy', and some Muslims nutters blame: western democracy.

I was just pointing out that likesfish is as nutty as the muslim nutters he tars the whole of Islam with.




And I found it interesting how neither you, goldencitrone, or you, littlebabyjesus, picked him up on it.

why should any one say anything abotu it idiocy speaks volumes...

 

[Aldebaran]

I've never seen a picture of Muhammad before.

Pictures of the Prophet of Islam are "faceless" (veiled).

Is Islam a big defender of animal rights?

Yes. (Why are you convuinced of the opposite?)

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Is that thing in the OP really considered art in Sweden these days? Poor Swedish, looks like they need a serious update in the art education department.

salaam.