cesare
shady's dreams ♥
They survive this long, far outwith any political party, because of their ability to politic.
Whether their strategic as opposed to tactical politics are immediately obvious to you, or any of us, is a moot point.
Pope lifts excommunication for Holocaust denying Brit
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They survive this long, far outwith any political party, because of their ability to politic.
Whether their strategic as opposed to tactical politics are immediately obvious to you, or any of us, is a moot point.
the button
out on the kocker
My point about the First Council of Nicea wasn't entirely frivolous. In AD 300 & odd (it's been a while since I studied this shit 
), a Roman emperor called the first "ecumenical council" of the church -- i.e. a council called by a political figure got to decide on doctrinal matters. I.e. who's in and who's out. Doctrinal matters always have a politics -- even the doctrine of the trinity (denying that there was a heirarchy in the godhead made it easier to put the case for a religious heirarchy on earth) -- but the Council marked a distinct muddying of the waters between doctrinal and political matters.
), a Roman emperor called the first "ecumenical council" of the church -- i.e. a council called by a political figure got to decide on doctrinal matters. I.e. who's in and who's out. Doctrinal matters always have a politics -- even the doctrine of the trinity (denying that there was a heirarchy in the godhead made it easier to put the case for a religious heirarchy on earth) -- but the Council marked a distinct muddying of the waters between doctrinal and political matters.DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
And yet, I question the moves made in order to ensure that survival. I also question wether the survival of the vatican as the central authority over the bewildering array of factions is a good thing.
the button
out on the kocker
Innit. When papal infallibility was defined as a doctine in the 19th century (yes, it really was that recently) it was primarily a gesture to the authority of the Vatican. In the meantime, communication technology (in terms of both aeroplanes and the internet) has turned this gesture in a lived reality for millions of people.
As some will know, the Vatican intervened to stop me teaching a few seminars on post-structuralist theories of gender to a maximum of about 20 people. This is a tiny example, but it shows the level of surveillance that the holy see can exercise. (There's no wonder I went for Foucault in such a big way
).
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Because your own personal ethics, to you (and that's natural, where I come from as well) outweigh the political necessity of any organised religion to put the survival of the church first and foremost. Collateral damage.
Politics at the top end of the hierarchy, and reinforcement of humanitarian principles at the bottom where most of the believers are. It's simply a more effective form of capitalism.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
of course, theocracy is effective. It's also pretty repugnant and even more than captalism, theocracy is a breeding ground for nasty pathologies and injustice. Dissent becomes heresy and mistakes become sin. I shudder at theocracy
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
of course, theocracy is effective. It's also pretty repugnant and even more than captalism, theocracy is a breeding ground for nasty pathologies and injustice. Dissent becomes heresy and mistakes become sin. I shudder at theocracy
Liberal theocracy is the most effective because the masses (lol) can balance their need to keep their peace with god/s and church. Ratz's theocracy is of the more conservative kind ... I wonder how this will play out.
the button
out on the kocker
of course, theocracy is effective. It's also pretty repugnant and even more than captalism, theocracy is a breeding ground for nasty pathologies and injustice. Dissent becomes heresy and mistakes become sin. I shudder at theocracy
Yeah, except the roman catholic church isn't really a theocracy. The pope being the successor of St Peter, who denied christ three times and fucked off back to his fishing job in Galilee straight after the crucifixion. Tibettan buddhists make far bigger claims for the dalai lama than catholics would make about the pope, for instance.
Not to say that you're not right about dissent shading into heresy and so on. I just don't think it's down to "theocracy."
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
no, not in modern times. But it once was, as it's grossest sins show (expulsion of the sephardic jews, the inquisition etc).
And in some societies (usually the poorest ones, eh?) they have been a functional theocracy if not an overt one
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Except when he is in his magic chair
the button
out on the kocker
If anything, the inquisition (disgusting though it is) demonstrates that that the catholic church isn't a theocracy, in that (after interrogation by the religious authorities) the subjects were "handed over to the secular arm" for punishment. The tragedy of the inquisition has more to do with the embroiling of religious and secular authority than it does with theocracy.
Also, IIRC, the decree of Alhambra was promulgated by Ferdinand and Isabella, who were monarchs rather members of the catholic heirarchy. Not to say the church wasn't involved, like. Quite the opposite. But again, it's a point about what happens when the boundaries between religious and secular authority become blurred.
As for your second point, I think you're on to something there. It's very easy for liberal catholics in the west to ignore some of the more insane proclamations of the holy see (carrying on quietly with artificial contraception, for instance). As far as I'm concerned, the role of the church in the spread of HIV and AIDS in Africa is as much of (if not more of) a scandal than the (in)action of the church re: Hitler's Germany.
the button
out on the kocker
There's only ever been one "infallible" pronouncement by a pope, which was the definition of the doctrine of the immaculate conception of the virgin Mary, in the 19th century. Missed opportunity, if you ask me. He could have won a fortune on the horses.
the button
out on the kocker
Anyway, I'm off to watch the X-Men on the telly. 
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
There's only ever been one "infallible" pronouncement by a pope, which was the definition of the doctrine of the immaculate conception of the virgin Mary, in the 19th century. Missed opportunity, if you ask me. He could have won a fortune on the horses.
seriously?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
and here is the point where my baptist upringing rears it's angry head
The problem with making the Pope endorsed King the divine ruler is so fraught with issues, even our CofE tradition has had many many issues with the divine right of kings. Curse the first man who allied religion with power, curse him to the lowest hellMy non-politico not too bright wrt history and theology baptist brother was proper outraged when I told him how catholiscism works wrt confession and that. Bless him
'My relationship with God is mine!' he said while making this face
as to the AIDS issue I have to wonder how much the RC churches' innate homophobia influences such. The Catholic heirachs seem so tied to doctrinaire bullshit they miss the message of Jeebus
Ma's church are new frontiers Baptists who go on the NT commandment of 'love one another'
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Anyone remember the Father Ted episode with the Nazi priest?
the one where a series of unfortunate events has him looking like a Nazi?
one of the classics, second only to the one where he kicks bishop brennan up the arse
Gingerman
Is a great bunch of lads.....
Thats the one,Ted makes a very funny comparsion between the Catholic Church and the Nazis,fucked if I can think of it.the one where a series of unfortunate events has him looking like a Nazi?
one of the classics, second only to the one where he kicks bishop brennan up the arse
Yep, he needs to sit in the magic chair to be infallible, and I think there's a special infallible hat that he needs to wear as well.
I've got an aunt and uncle who subscribe to the more militant wing of Catholicism and I don't think I'll be able to avoid bringing up Williamson and the rest of the SSPX next time we have a conversation.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
See if I was pope I'd be rinsing the fuck out of the magic chair/hat.
'grass is now blue!' kapow.
Stigmata
sexual tyrannosaurus
"Nazis dress in black and tell everyone what to do, while priests..."
Gingerman
Is a great bunch of lads.....
'I'm fallible!'
the button
out on the kocker
Oh yes. Papal infallibility was defined as a doctrine in 1870. There has been one "infallibile" pronouncement since which, (having checked in the meantime) was in 1950 -- the doctrine of the assumption of the blessed virgin Mary. Rather than the immaculate conception of the blessed virgin Mary (as I mistakenly posted earlier), which was defined in 1854, and although ex cathedra, was not infallible. Boy, is my face red.
It's been some years since I had to know this shit for a living, mind.
It's interesting to note that what many would characterise as one of the more "medieval" aspects of papal authority is in fact fairly modern, and has only been exercised once, less than sixty years ago.
who defines whether a pronouncement is fallible or not fallible?
God, of course - speaking through his represntative on earth, which for Catholics is the guy in the hat.
is there some sort of special prcedure though?
I don't think there's an official one - most of the stories I get about the Pope going off to consult with God use verbs that sound like unsubtle euphemisms for masturbation.
