Pope Benedict's comments regarding Islam

[Aldebaran]

Found this in the Qu'ran...

The quoted verse underscores that the Message of God is unchanged and should be followed unaltered, like it was when when the Prophets received it from God.
It is not a reference to the Books as they were in use and followed by the Jews and Christians at the time (and now).
For Muslims the problem with the "people of the Book" - as they are called in Al Qur'an - is that the books they follow were corrupted over time by humans. Hence the need to correct and hence the repetition of the original Message of God through a new prophet, which was Muhammed.
That is the purpose of Al Qur'an.

salaam.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The quoted verse underscores that the Message of God is unchanged and should be followed unaltered, like it was when when the Prophets received it from God.
salaam.

Agree with that. Done with far more style and less brimstone than the last verse of the Christian Testament.

It is not a reference to the Books as they were in use and followed by the Jews and Christians at the time (and now).
For Muslims the problem with the "people of the Book" - as they are called in Al Qur'an - is that the books they follow were corrupted over time by humans.
salaam.

Well I have no argument with that. The history of the Christian Testament tells us that. Things added, things forged and things taken away.

Hence the need to correct and hence the repetition of the original Message of God through a new prophet, which was Muhammed.
That is the purpose of Al Qur'an.
salaam.

I respect your point of view on that. It's not one I agree with but sometimes disagreement is positive. Personally I think that some monothiestic faiths grow out of a desire for unity and there was IIRC much disunity on the Arabian pennisular at the time of the rise of The Prophet,

Corrupt religious and governmental situations encourage revolution and people like Yeshua Ben Joseph and Muhummed were religious and social revolutionaries in different ways.


But you cannot deny that the verse I quoted is a message from God/HaShem/Allah that there is a monotheistic faith line transmitted through three different paths but essentially following the same deity. Well thats my opinion anyway.

 

[mears]

This might be a little off topic but something I find fascinating.

I lead the life of a typical working stiff. Put in my forty hours. Take exercise once in a while, drinks and dinner with friends and throw in the occasional vacation.

Contrast this with protestors in the Middle East. They must work hard as well. Breaking their backs, providing clothes for their families, getting food on the table - paying a portion of their pay packets to "the man" in the form of taxes.

But on top of all this they find the time to pray five times a day. They can attend friday sermons (don't know about you all but Mears is slaving away on fridays) Sometimes they even venture out in the streets and burn the American of Israeli flag. Or storm the Danish embassy over cartoons or burn pictures of the pope.

I just don't have the time for constant praying or street protests, not enough time in the day for me. Yet men my age in places like Egypt, Pakistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran and Malaysia seem to find the time to balance work and protest. They seem to have found the right balance with their demanding jobs.

Must have understanding bosses as well. More understanding than Mear's boss, thats for sure.

 

[JHE]

Yeah, they've got a good God-sanity balance. A bit of work, a bit of kafir-bashing, a bit of stoning adulteresses, a bit of shouting and praying, a once-in-a-lifetime hajj, a touch of jihad, maybe a chance to execute an apostate, but no bacon sarnies. It keeps the ummah healthy, wealthy and wise?

 

[mears]

Yeah, they've got a good God-sanity balance. A bit of work, a bit of kafir-bashing, a bit of stoning adulteresses, a bit of shouting and praying, a once-in-a-lifetime hajj, a touch of jihad, maybe a chance to execute an apostate, but no bacon sarnies. It keeps the ummah healthy, wealthy and wise?

Right, long hours at the office I'm sure.

Its all about balancing work with protest. What a good balance they have found in Muslim countries.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

C'mon Mears how long does it take to put a match to a flag? Not long.

I do a 40 hour week, do voluntary work, have a very busy social life and hobbies and can still find time to burn an American flag. The nylon ones go up a treat. Cotton ones take a bit more time as you need to add an accellerant.

 

[nino_savatte]

My first thought was that this was so odd it must be intentional - possibly reflecting an ambition to bring Rome and the Orthodox together against a "common enemy".

Aye, this crossed my mind too. But I don't think it will work and Benedict is most probably whistling in the dark.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes, I did.
I always am so happy to have a word right that figures following them are overlooked
Joannes Comnenus II was the son of Alexius Comnenos, founder of the Commenus dynasty.
Joannes I Tzimiskes was an army general under the rule of Romanus II together with Nicephorus Phocas, who became Emperor (Nicephoras II Pocas) after the death of Alexius through his marriage with his widow Theopano.
His wife murdered him after she fell for the charmes of Joannes Tzimiskes, with as consequences popular uprising and the patriarch refusing to marry them. In the end Theophane is branded as primary suspect and enters a convent. Ioannes comes of cheap: 70 days of penetance and obligated marriage with Theodora, the sister of Romanus II and daughter of Constantin VII, witch is seen as a want to create a connection with the Macedonian line of Emperors.

salaam

I stand corrected, John II was Alexius I Comnenus's son.

My question is this: when are we going to see some telly documentaries on the BBC about the Byzantine Empire?

 

[ska invita]

But we must have adademic freedom, his audience was all high-falutin' and it is quite possible the quote was relevant to some point he was making.

It's possible, but no one in all the press nor here has been able to say - "its out of context- he was pointing out how the opposite is true."

And lets not make out the Pope is an "academic" - he's a fucking soothsayer who actively and willfully suspends logic and reason and whose false beliefs lead to millions of deaths and unwanted lives. (Taking a pop at the pope - not exactly hard is it!)

As I said elsewhere, anything that brings religion and especially the Pope into disrepute is fine by me - they deserve each other these Catholics and Muslims.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

. (Taking a pop at the pope - not exactly hard is it!)

Might have been a bit different if you'd taken a pop at the pope in the 14th Century CE. You'd have found the popes tanks on your lawn pretty damn sharpish.

 

[ska invita]

Must have understanding bosses as well. More understanding than Mear's boss, thats for sure.

First prayers are in the morning (before work) there's prayer before bed time and evening prayers, which leaves only two prayer breaks in the work day - when I worked in an office I was taking at least 6 tea breaks a day + lunch.

I think all the praying was introduced as a means of social control rather than pious zeal - before Muhammed the religious culture in the area was nothing like this (mainly early Christians I think? Cant remember what I read now).

 

[mears]

C'mon Mears how long does it take to put a match to a flag? Not long.

I do a 40 hour week, do voluntary work, have a very busy social life and hobbies and can still find time to burn an American flag. The nylon ones go up a treat. Cotton ones take a bit more time as you need to add an accellerant.

But you don't pray five times a day or attend Friday religious meetings, so it seems they have found a better balance than even you.

A balance with those jobs they all hold.

 

[ska invita]

no one in all the press nor here has been able to say - "its out of context- he was pointing out how the opposite is true."

In fact it seems that it was completely within context, he was talking about evil and inhumane trends within Islam, and using the quote to show how long its been going on.

His apology just says "these are not my personal beliefs", but they clearly (to some extent) by assosciation with the point he was making overall.

 

[fishfingerer]

This might be a little off topic but something I find fascinating.

I lead the life of a typical working stiff. Put in my forty hours. Take exercise once in a while, drinks and dinner with friends and throw in the occasional holiday.

Contrast this with bushbot fuckwits in the US. They must work hard as well. Breaking their backs, providing clothes for their families, getting food on the table - paying a portion of their pay packets to "the man" in the form of taxes.

But on top of all this they find the time to spam internet message boards all day.

I just don't have the time for constant spamming or trolling, not enough time in the day for me. Yet men my age in places like Arsehole Virginia, Clitwit Montana and Redneckcuntown Tennessee seem to find the time to balance work and spam. They seem to have found the right balance with their demanding jobs.

Must have understanding bosses as well. More understanding than my boss, thats for sure.

 

[ska invita]

This might be a little off topic but something I find fascinating.

 

[Cadmus]

I find the whole situation amusing tbh.

A catholic quoting an orthodox thus insulting a muslim.

It's the interreligious dialogue at its best.

 

[JoePolitix]

In fact it seems that it was completely within context, he was talking about evil and inhumane trends within Islam, and using the quote to show how long its been going on.

His apology just says "these are not my personal beliefs", but they clearly (to some extent) by assosciation with the point he was making overall.

The Pope favourably qouted a Byzantine Christian Emperor saying that the teachings of Mohammad were "only evil and inhuman". That's not attack on a *trend* in Islam but an attack on Islam as a whole and given that the Pope is personally opposed to Turkey's membership of the EU and has in the past met with the late Oriana Fallaci who said Muslims in Europe "breed like rats" it is understandable why many Muslims are offended my his bloody stupid remarks.

That said, obviously the small minority of bigots who have gone rioting are just brain dead morons who do more to fuel prejudice against Muslims than the Vatican could wish for.

 

[ska invita]

Agree with that.

Good op piece here:

The unmistakable whiff of Christian triumphalism

This was no casual slip. Beneath his scholarly rhetoric, the Pope's logic seemed to be that Islam is dangerous and godless

[...]"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." These were not the Pope's words, but those of an obscure Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos, back in the 14th century. And yes, the Pope did make it clear he was offering a quotation. Even so, these words fell from the lips of the spiritual leader of a billion Christians without anything like enough qualification. There was no phrase distancing himself from the claim that Muhammad was responsible for evil. It's little surprise, therefore, that the remarks have roused anger and demands for a personal apology.

The peice has the most about what the whole speach actually tried to say... namely that

in Muslim teaching, because "God is absolutely transcendent", He is "not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality". In other words, there is no reasoning in or with Islam. Which, surely, is another way of the Pope saying how dangerous he thinks Islam is.

http://tinyurl.com/r5vx8

In the blog replies someone hit the head of the nail:

Is he an old fool?

Or does he want to accelerate a confrontation to cause Europeans to rally round the papal flag?

THat may be it as all his speeches thus far have been lamenting how noone is really Catholic anymore, especially in his native Germany.

 

[mears]

This might be a little off topic but something I find fascinating.

I lead the life of a typical working stiff. Put in my forty hours. Take exercise once in a while, drinks and dinner with friends and throw in the occasional holiday.

Contrast this with bushbot fuckwits in the US. They must work hard as well. Breaking their backs, providing clothes for their families, getting food on the table - paying a portion of their pay packets to "the man" in the form of taxes.

But on top of all this they find the time to spam internet message boards all day.

I just don't have the time for constant spamming or trolling, not enough time in the day for me. Yet men my age in places like Arsehole Virginia, Clitwit Montana and Redneckcuntown Tennessee seem to find the time to balance work and spam. They seem to have found the right balance with their demanding jobs.

Must have understanding bosses as well. More understanding than my boss, thats for sure.

I'm not on here while at work.

Maybe I should start

 

[Azrael23]

Psy-op. The manufacture of a clash of civilisations.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

In my opinion, Fong's thread about islam should not have been binned.

Dhimmi attempted to deliberately get it binned by c and p ing up a huge article.

The article should have been snipped, Dhimmi should have been warned.

The binning proved Fong right: if you say the wrong things or even ask the wrong questions, and islam is the topic, you run the risk of being silenced, one way or the other.

I'm aware of the directive of not questioning the things the mods do, and I'm not interested in a thread discussing that decision, but I'm surprised to see such a move on a board that often has wide-ranging political and social discussions.

We expect people like Bush to want to control what we say or even think; it's unfortunate when those allied against such restrictions, take up the same tactics as those they claim to despise.

 

[TomUS]

This new pope had a bad smell about him from the beginning. He seemed intolerant & kind of a fanatic. Why would he speak a quote that would obviously piss off Muslims? Why would Muslims take his ramblings so seriously? Religion is shit. As many have said, lock both bands of extremists up on an island & let them beat each other sensless with their holy books. And the fools that follow them really need to wise up and think for themselves.

 

[stevepinker]

In my opinion, Fong's thread about islam should not have been binned.

Dhimmi attempted to deliberately get it binned by c and p ing up a huge article.

The article should have been snipped, Dhimmi should have been warned.

The binning proved Fong right: if you say the wrong things or even ask the wrong questions, and islam is the topic, you run the risk of being silenced, one way or the other.

I'm aware of the directive of not questioning the things the mods do, and I'm not interested in a thread discussing that decision, but I'm surprised to see such a move on a board that often has wide-ranging political and social discussions.

We expect people like Bush to want to control what we say or even think; it's unfortunate when those allied against such restrictions, take up the same tactics as those they claim to despise.

I argee it all seems a little cozy for me ,I have a lot of respect for this forum but the bining was underhand and no better than a daily mail headline

 

[nino_savatte]

But you don't pray five times a day or attend Friday religious meetings, so it seems they have found a better balance than even you.

A balance with those jobs they all hold.

Isn't cultural relativism a wonderful thing?

 

[ska invita]

Psy-op. The manufacture of a clash of civilisations.

anything is possible - as i mentioned,by radicalising groups the catholics might get a few more punters in a fading market - revenues must be down in the vatican... its not impossible.

 

[kyser_soze]

Psy-op. The manufacture of a clash of civilisations.

Ah right, so the history of the Crusades is in fact a historical fallacy concocted by...The Rothschilds?

There's been an uneasy peace between Islam/Christianity for a few centuries while Christianity turned away from Islam's perceived/real threat to deal with the rise of it's most implacable enemy, rationalism and the rise of the materialist society on the home front.

While largely defeated (or at least kept in check) those politicians who have been able to make a confluence between democracy and Xtianity somehow being innately connected (and Bush isn't the only one who does this - the rows over 'keeping Europe a Xtian continent' in the EU Constitution debate showed that similar views prevail) have been able to bring together the fears of secularists and liberals that a highly militant variant of Islam is abroad in the world which views secular societies as weak, sinful etc along with peeling back decades of ecumenical understanding and understanding between the Book faiths to the 'If you are not us you are infidel/heathen' attitude. This has been aided by extremist Muslims who also believe that the Crusades never ended satisfactorily and whom are quite happy to go along with the idea of the Clash of Civilisations.

To dismiss a concept that has an 800 year history and is as massive as CoC as 'psy ops' is pretty lame, even for you.

 

[rhys gethin]

I wish the Peoples of The Book would stop fucking arguing and killing each other

'Books', I suppose. I wish PEOPLE would stop killing each other (arguing is okay), but I reckon that it is inherent in the species. The various religions have had their try, but now it is down the Big Slide for the lot of us. Ave, Bush - te morituri salutare (is it, classicists?)

 

[hipipol]

Bit O prayer, Guv?

Seems to have upset this chap rather a lot, put him right off his stride in the key speech at the Prayer Development League meeting
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=9/19/2006&Cat=2&Num=014

The Global Arrogance - ace phrase
Are ALL religious leaders crazy?

 

[DarthSydodyas]

Not crazy, just full of themselves.

 

[kyser_soze]

What everyone seems to have missed completely in this speech of the Popes - and I only really picked up on it reading the op-ed in the Times from Saturday last night - is that he concluded it by saying that the real enemy of both Christianity and Islam was materlism/rationalism 'that does not allow for the possibility of the divine in it's worldview'.

But hey, let's just focus on one out-of-context line from what was quite an interesting lecture - I'm betting that half these pieces on Christian Triumphalism, Pope should apologise have been written by journos who haven't bothered reading what he actually SAID.