Politics of the SWP.

[Groucho]

I bumped into a group of protestors outside some council offices today. They were protesting (loudly) about the proposed conversion of their comprehensive into an academy. (a few Unison posters there, with a mixture of families and children and not an SWP or otherwise poster/placard/paper in sight.)

I was on that protest. A few SWs were sold. The UNISON rep with the megaphone is SWP. There were NUT members, teachers, schoolkids and a delegation of PCS members from two Civil Service depts.

 

[Groucho]

...
Looking at one of their leaflets, I noticed that part of the proposal involved building on playingfields (for luxury flats to help finance the thing apparently.) I explained to a couple of them the rights that they had under planning laws - especially with regards to "call-in" (i.e. the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government) using powers under the Town and Country Planning Act to take away the power of the local authority to decide this case if it contravened Government policy on planning - one of which is along the lines of thou shalt not build on school playing fields. I told them who to contact so as to make a formal objection to it and whom to seek advice from in terms of dealing with this issue....

and that is only part of it...and PCS members will be able to advise on the planning issue. Remember this (Tory) council is unscrupulous and New Labour are hastening the creation of Academies (privatisaing schools) at a rate of knots, so don't expect gently lobbying or a few carefully aimed leters and formal processes to sort it all out. A local loud active campaign is needed.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

What I liked about that protest was that it was a community issue that people care passionately about - in this case the education of their children. As a result, there was a greater diversity of people there.

As someone commented about the Stop the War protest in Feb 2003 vs the Countryside Alliance march some months earlier, the STWC march had far more people protesting about something that as far as day-to-day stuff was concerned didn't affect them. However, they -we (as I was on it) were concerned about the plight of the Iraqi people in the event of the war that followed, and the fact that we were not convinced about the WMD issue that the war was sold on.

The challenge for the left is what can it learn from the STW marches, that did have a huge and diverse level of backing, and how can it diversify its base so that when protesting on issues it's not seen to be the "same old suspects" at it again.

 

[Groucho]

What I liked about that protest was that it was a community issue that people care passionately about - in this case the education of their children. As a result, there was a greater diversity of people there.....

I thought the children themselves were brilliant and the way that the school kids, the teachers and the parents were all united in enthusiastically supporting their school was inspiring. The kids had a chant that listed the things they loved about the school - pretty much everything. And this is a school that is very deliberately neglected by the local council. While Academy schools are offered extra funds by the Govt.

But the diversity comes in part from the NUT branch and the UNISON branch reaching out beyond the usual avenues. So you had parents and teachers, along with ex-pupils, and local trades unionists (and a NUT NEC member).

cockneyrebel will be interested to know that a PR* member is among the teachers.

It was a shame that a couple of the hand written placards spelt comprehensive wrong

Edited - I meant PR not WP

 

[lewislewis]

As it happens I've seen far worse on a STWC when al mujaharoon were chanting "gas, gas, gas the jews, kill, kill, kill the socialists". In that case I would have been more than happy to get them to leave the demo. But considering there was no more than 100-150 of them they were in no way representative of a demo of 10,000s.

Bloody hell they sound like a nice bunch.

 

[northernhord]

The SWP - Elitist internal policy making mechanisms, a refusal to work with other groups who are a midges dick away from their own views, posh people selling newspapers on rundown shopping precincts, revolutionaries who dont have revolutions, they have revised Marx's and others works and gave them an SWP tint, issue hijackers, I cant be arsed with this the list is making me very tired, nite peeps!

 

[In Bloom]

No. I'm not sure that would have helped in the circumstances but I wouldn't have had a problem with stewards (who were a mixture of people, including muslims) telling them they weren't in any way welcome on the demo and stopping them from going on it.

Never seen them on any demos since.

Out of curiosity, would your attitude be the same if the people chanting that were fash?

 

[Andy the Don]

Out of curiosity, would your attitude be the same if the people chanting that were fash?

I would say anyone chanting "gas the Jews" & "Kill the socialists" can be safely classed as "fash"..

 

[Das Uberdog]

I can't say I haven't had a do at some of the more wankerish elements of the likes of Hiz'but - one guy tried to give me a leaflet 'disproving' democracy and also apprently, 'disproving' socialism theoretically and economically on a StWC demo once. I told him where to stick it. Can't say I wouldn't have had a go had I heard that chant in question either - pretty bloody despicable indeed.

The only (and concrete) difference between the fash and groups of 'Islamic' scholars spouting this bile is that in the case of the Muslims, it's in response to real oppression and marginalisation. If we took the same line towards silencing them on demonstrations or elsewhere to the fash then we'd really be blaming the victims. I can dig how after having your culture, personal life and job opportunities monitored, slated and taken away from you how you could feel marginalised enough to take to reactionary politics. The problem with these groups is mainly that they fall for the lies of the establishment; that Israel is a 'Jewish' state, and Israelis are synonymous with Zionists - or that the war in Iraq is a religious war between neo-cons and Muslims. The fash, on the other hand, are generally cynically manipulating public opinion to scapegoat minorities rather than simply reacting out of fear and desperation.

The fact is that as white people in British society today, most of us whities simply cannot seriously claim that we experience 'racism', or know what 'racism' feels like on a day-to-day basis. Fascism is the self-pitying whine of the 'self-made' Middle-Class male, whereas Islamic extremism is the cry for help of an abused and oppressed section of society.

 

[treelover]

I can't believe a left winger could write that guff, are you a teenager DU or a student, you are so naive. The fact remains if that had been fash, the mob would have descended on them like a ton of bricks. Where does this excusing fascism end? This hierarchy of oppression stinks and is another reason why the 19 C far left is failing and flailing

 

[cockneyrebel]

Out of curiosity, would your attitude be the same if the people chanting that were fash?

I think it's more complicated than that. While the group in question probably can be regarded as clerical fascists they are never gonna be a threat in the UK, in terms of running whole swathes of society, the BNP, in the right circumstances, could.

Because of the dynamics of the demo and the fact that they were representative of a tiny percentage of muslims on the demo I'm not sure going over there and giving them a kicking would have been the best thing to do. Unlike if the BNP turned up and, for me, it would have been totally clear cut in terms a kicking. But I did tell them to fuck off and also would have had no problems with stewards forcibly stopping them from going on the march.

It's the same kinda dynamics as people who argued that when fascists demonstrated outside Finsbury mosque that leftists should attack both the fascists and any islamic fundamentalists who turned up. Again, in those circumstances, I'd totally disagree.

cockneyrebel will be interested to know that a WP member is among the teachers.

So was this in Birmingham? As far as I know WP only have about six or seven trade unionists since the split (the rest are students or not active in trade union stuff) and only one is a teacher.

If it is anywhere but Birmingham then I would have thought the person in question was a PR member.

 

[treelover]

Actually, CR many of the far right are young working class males, who feel excluded from the benefits of a capitalist society, but they don't count to the 19 c far left anymore do they, how we have fallen.....

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I can't believe a left winger could write that guff, are you a teenager DU or a student, you are so naive. The fact remains if that had been fash, the mob would have descended on them like a ton of bricks. Where does this excusing fascism end? This hierarchy of oppression stinks and is another reason why the 19 C far left is failing and flailing

If it had been secular nationalist fash doing this the swappies would have immediately run bleating to the nearest old bill and reported it.

Fascism is fascism where ever it comes from. Not dealing with it for fear of being percieved as racist or for offending Respects paymasters is totally out of order.

Treelover, I agree with you about the heirarchy of oppression. This guff plays into the hands of those who want to divide people and petty politicos.

It saddens me to see a so called socialist party covering up for fash. The funny thing is the swappie posters who excuse islamic fascism are the same posters who jump in to shout 'racist' to people who challenge their views on things like housing allocation etc.

The fact is the Swaps are dead in the water, they cannot gain support for their ideas so they are seeking power by way of minorithy bloc votes.

This is dangerous and was a course of action rejected by some other mnority religions at least 100 years ago.

 

[Belushi]

I can't believe a left winger could write that guff, are you a teenager DU or a student, you are so naive. The fact remains if that had been fash, the mob would have descended on them like a ton of bricks. Where does this excusing fascism end? This hierarchy of oppression stinks and is another reason why the 19 C far left is failing and flailing

Innit, just when you think the Swappies couldn't sink any lower.

I'm fucking gobsmacked to hear someone who considers themselves to be on the left coming out with such crap.

 

[nino_savatte]

Actually, CR many of the far right are young working class males, who feel excluded from the benefits of a capitalist society, but they don't count to the 19 c far left anymore do they, how we have fallen.....

That may be the case, but the leadership is bourgeois, privileged and middle class. Griffin is no prole.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Actually, CR many of the far right are young working class males, who feel excluded from the benefits of a capitalist society, but they don't count to the 19 c far left anymore do they, how we have fallen.....

Who said they don't count? My point is that the BNP could provide a real threat in the UK. Islamic fundamentalists won't as they will never be more than a tiny percentage of the population.

Also, as it goes, even the BNP admit that a lot of their support actually comes from the middle classes.

 

[treelover]

yes, i would suggest that if this happens again on the next anti-war, demo or more likely the Palestine demo on the 9th, (and one should note 150 racists/anti-semites are a substantial number, the SWP make a big thing of 50 fash after all), the SWP and all the other 19 C left sects should as a matter of record ask them to leave on pain of physical removal, publish comdemnations in their rags, S/W, Respect publications,etc. I won't hold my breath though, pathetic and very dangerous indeed.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

yes, i would suggest that if this happens again on the next anti-war, demo or more likely the Palestine demo on the 9th, (and one should note 150 racists/anti-semites are a substantial number, the SWP make a big thing of 50 fash after all), the SWP and all the other 19 C left sects should as a matter of record ask them to leave on pain of physical removal, publish comdemnations in their rags, S/W, Respect publications,etc. I won't hold my breath though, pathetic and very dangerous indeed.

I'm going to be monitoring this one. Got some friends who may well be going on it I'll get them to keep an eye out.

I think that if antisemites turn up to this it will be hushed up or excused by the swaps as 'a legitimate reaction to oppression' or some such bollocks.

Re your other post I agree that the majority of the working class has been deserted by the 19th C left and their supporters thereby driving them into the arms of the far right.

 

[treelover]

yeah, three things the SWP and the others have ignored/not campaigned on in the last few years

(1) 37 women died in prison/police custody

(2) the Welfare Reform Bill

(3) pensioners regularly dying of cold, living in poverty, abused in care homes

 

[mk12]

the BNP could provide a real threat in the UK. Islamic fundamentalists won't as they will never be more than a tiny percentage of the population.

In what way do you mean "threat"? British Islamic fundamentalists have carried out a terrorist attack (killing 50 odd), and had one thwarted. To my knowledge, the BNP haven't.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

yeah, three things the SWP and the others have ignored/not campaigned on in the last few years

(1) 37 women died in prison/police custody

(2) the Welfare Reform Bill

(3) pensioners regularly dying of cold, living in poverty, abused in care homes

You are right they have been markedly quiet on these sort of issues. Plenty of noise for other stuff which is little relevance to ordinary peoples lives though.

The scary thing is the left used to be bang on with community self help stuff which builds up things like solidarity when there is an industrial dispute or a threat to a local community. They have abandoned these principles and left vast swathes of people with no other potential representative than ignorant fash.

 

[cockneyrebel]

In what way do you mean "threat"? British Islamic fundamentalists have carried out a terrorist attack (killing 50 odd), and had one thwarted. To my knowledge, the BNP haven't.

A threat in the sense of actually being able to take over local councils and in circumstances of economic depression actually challenging for power. Sorry but that's never gonna happen with islamic fundamentalists.

I just don't think that at a demo where the BNP are protesting against muslims (whatever way they dress it up) it's not a great idea for the left to go along and start attacking muslims, even if they are part of fundamentalists groups.

the SWP and all the other 19 C left sects should as a matter of record ask them to leave on pain of physical removal, publish comdemnations in their rags, S/W, Respect publications,etc.

I've already said that personally I think they should have been thrown off the demo. But out of a demo of about 50-80,000 people 100-150 people is tiny. As it goes that was about two and a half years ago and I've never seen them since. And also with a massive demo against the war, personally I wouldn't bother wasting print space on a nutty totally unrepresentative group who were going nowhere fast.

 

[audiotech]

yeah, three things the SWP and the others have ignored/not campaigned on in the last few years

(1) 37 women died in prison/police custody

(2) the Welfare Reform Bill

(3) pensioners regularly dying of cold, living in poverty, abused in care homes

Under a Labour Government too. A party you support - you a member?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

....
I bumped into a group of protestors outside some council offices today. They were protesting (loudly) about the proposed conversion of their comprehensive into an academy. (a few Unison posters there, with a mixture of families and children and not an SWP or otherwise poster/placard/paper in sight.)

Looking at one of their leaflets, I noticed that part of the proposal involved building on playingfields (for luxury flats to help finance the thing apparently.) I explained to a couple of them the rights that they had under planning laws - especially with regards to "call-in" (i.e. the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government) using powers under the Town and Country Planning Act to take away the power of the local authority to decide this case if it contravened Government policy on planning - one of which is along the lines of thou shalt not build on school playing fields. I told them who to contact so as to make a formal objection to it and whom to seek advice from in terms of dealing with this issue. Far more effective than localised chanting?

...

What's your point? Are you saying the SWP don't care about this sort of action? I'm not a member of the SWP, but you might care to have a look at this report before replying:

Lancashire Evening Post 28 May 2007

Group will fight 'academy' plan

An opposition group has been set up following the unveiling of plans to introduce up to two new academies in Preston.
Respect councillor Michael Lavalette is calling a public meeting to set up an Anti-Academies Alliance. He said parents have been kept in the dark over plans to merge Fulwood and Tulketh high schools into one city academy.

Coun Lavalette, whose daughter attends Fulwood High School and Arts Centre, said parents had not been involved in any discussions of proposals which could affect their children's education.

"As a parent I am a bit anxious about what is happening. I don't agree with academies and my younger daughter is in the process of choosing a secondary school."

The town centre ward representative said people did not know enough about academies and they deserved a chance to air their views.

"There has been a lot of opposition and
concern that the capital investment of up to £2m from local businessmen very often hasn't been paid.

"They are not even meeting their targets in some places, yet this gives them a huge say on dress code, hiring and firing of staff, even what's in the curriculum."

Coun Lavalette said he hoped to hold a meeting for parents after half-term with a view to canvassing views before setting up a local Anti-Academy Alliance.

The National Union of Teachers is also opposed to academies, and a letter sent to local officers from county secretary Ken Cridland stated: "We believed that the Prime Minister's Office was leaning on councils by letting them know that they would not get the Building Schools for the Future money unless they co-operated with academies."

It added that there were "no convincing arguments or research" to show academies benefited pupils. Call Coun Lavalette on 07739 729214.

http://www.lep.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=73&articleid=2909227

 

[Das Uberdog]

In reference to wooden-skull - I obviously wasn't saying anything about how the SWP would have responded to fash on the demo. It's a non-starter, and yes they would have been removed. I even blatantly told you I would have had a go at the said group of religio's had I been present; however I also gave you a qualitative analysis of how Islamic bigotry is fundamentally and intrinsically different in nature to fascism.

 

[poster342002]

I also gave you a qualitative analysis of how Islamic bigotry is fundamentally and intrinsically different in nature to fascism.

The outcome of both in power is pretty much the same, though, so it really makes no odds at the end of the day. The same types of people tend to end up against a wall whenever either of those two political doctrines takes power.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The outcome of both in power is pretty much the same, though, so it really makes no odds at the end of the day. The same types of people tend to end up against a wall whenever either of those two political doctrines takes power.

Yup. Religious fascism or secular fash the result is the same. I feel the same way about Catholic and Proddy fash as well.

 

[poster342002]

Religious fascism or secular fash the result is the same.

The argument that one isn't quite as bad/worthy of opposition as the other because it's unlikely to actaully be able to take power in Britain strikes me as utterly bizarre. How would the trots feel if some notionally leftist outfit somewhere in the world was giving/recieving backing from UK fash on some spurious justification or other?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The argument that one isn't quite as bad/worthy of opposition as the other because it's unlikely to actaully be able to take power in Britain strikes me as utterly bizarre.

..and counterproductive as it gives legitimatimacy to other fash groupings.

How would the trots feel if some notionally leftist outfit somewhere in the world was giving/recieving backing from UK fash for some reason or other?

I think that this would put them in a very dodgy position morally and politically. If they criticised the 'fash funded left group' it would be easy to demolish the arguments of the respectdroids as they have done the same.

 

[Das Uberdog]

What isn't being taken into account is the different social circumstances of the Muslim community and the white community with relation to British society as a whole. aka - Muslims are facing discrimination, racism, and multitudes of other genuine day-to-day blights which whitey just plain isn't.