Politics of the SWP.

[Blagsta]

Hizbollah are just another bunch of cunts with guns and bombs and I condemn them just as I condemn the violence of the settlers in Judea and Samaria.

This is far too simplistic. According to my Lebanese mates, Hizbollah get support from a wide range of people, including Christians. Hizbollah are providing education, healthcare, an infrastructure where the state has failed. To dismiss them as nutters with guns misses the complexity of the situation.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Quite, and completely underestimates their level of popular support on the ground. Same with Hamas. They are both mass movements, and some of the most politically progressive mass movements in the Middle-East today.

As far as 'chasing the BNP out of Dagenham' is concerned - I wouldn't be surprised if that could have been the perception from a few naive student Swappies on the ground... Since Lewisham, the Fascists in Britain have a relatively well documented tradition of running a mile from physical confrontations with the Reds apart from on the most important occasions (Griffin's trial). Of course, I don't think they did chase them out - nor does anyone who knows anything about the politics of the community of the area - but the demo may well have stopped the BNP from organising anything else new.

As far as the SWPs allegiance to religious groups is concerned;

a) it's important to appeal to the radicals (the majority of Muslim youth) because they are the one's closest to our understanding of the State and capitalism - many simply find their criticism taking religious tones. We hope (and in many cases succeed (already cited examples from Muslim Respect members in Preston) in doing this).

b) we haven't, to date, allied ourselves with any organisations which don't have mass and popular support amongst Muslims in Britain, and without good reason. There are many reasons to support Hamas, not just because they're popular. I'm sure you've heard the arguments before, and I have (on a previous thread) gone into the programme of Hamas and Hizbollah and shown that they are politically progressive organisations.

c) we've not being making our allegiances with the 'right wing conservative' elements of the Muslim community... I don't know what you know about the demographic of Muslim Respect members but they are (without exception) the most progressive and forward looking members of the community. I have never met any Muslim Respect members who would show me this is otherwise. Making relations with the Mosque may well be making relations with conservatives, but it's also an act of bridging the divide between the insular and exclusive communities of the most marginalised Muslims with the rest of British society.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is far too simplistic. According to my Lebanese mates, Hizbollah get support from a wide range of people, including Christians. Hizbollah are providing education, healthcare, an infrastructure where the state has failed. To dismiss them as nutters with guns misses the complexity of the situation.

This is very true, their popularity (for want of a better word) goes well beyond their core support.

 

[poster342002]

("From Fallujah to Ramalla, Globalise the Intifada!").

Oh, christ....

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Oh, christ....

I know - naieve and scary isn't it. The fact is the Islamist nutters (like other faith fash) would have no problem with destroying their current swappie allies if they had power.

This is an interesting peice and should be read by those groups seeking links with Islamists (Note I said Islamists rather than individual Muslims - there is aworld of difference)

http://www.iheu.org/node/1977

 

[likesfish]

so radical muslims views on minority rights
keen on them as long as their the minority
equality
freedom of speach ooh tricky
womens rights
alcohol
justice sharia law not exactly brilliant
I'm glad there disempowered and I hope they stay that way forever

 

[KeyboardJockey]

so radical muslims views on minority rights
keen on them as long as their the minority
equality
freedom of speach ooh tricky
womens rights
alcohol
justice sharia law not exactly brilliant
I'm glad there disempowered and I hope they stay that way forever

I've also just seen an article from Socialist Worker praising the work of the Somali Islamic Courts Union for their work around 'morality'.

I think that Muslims need to be brought into the political process like other groups who were once on the outside such as Jews and Catholics but Islamists and their world domination philosophy can fuck right off.

Beware who your friends are is what I would say to the swappies.

 

[nino_savatte]

so radical muslims views on minority rights
keen on them as long as their the minority
equality
freedom of speach ooh tricky
womens rights
alcohol
justice sharia law not exactly brilliant
I'm glad there disempowered and I hope they stay that way forever

Is this verse?

 

[Andy the Don]

I've also just seen an article from Socialist Worker praising the work of the Somali Islamic Courts Union for their work around 'morality'.

Beating people for daring to watch the world cup. Yes very moral..

Swappies remind me of the Social Democrats after the 1917 Russian revolution, who were so surprised when they were the first to be rounded up after the revolution.

 

[poster342002]

Swappies remind me of the Social Democrats after the 1917 Russian revolution, who were so surprised when they were the first to be rounded up after the revolution.

They remind me more of the Iranian communists who were equally amazed to find themselves being rounded up by their erstwhile Islamist allies after the 1979 revolution.

 

[poster342002]

I've also just seen an article from Socialist Worker praising the work of the Somali Islamic Courts Union for their work around 'morality'.

Is there any Islamist seizure of power (with all it's accompanying shariah law) that the swappies wouldn't cream their pants over?

"With the Islamists sometimes" I believe was their bollocky slogan. Trouble is, I can't remember the last time they were against them or had a bad word to say about them.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Is there any Islamist seizure of power (with all it's accompanying shariah law) that the swappies wouldn't cream their pants over?

It does make you wonder doesn't it?

Well its authoritarian birds of a feather flocking together. BTW I've just seen an article by Yvonne Ridley slagging off a Jordanian Anti Terrorist Violence demo because it criticises the Islamists.

Utter twats.


http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2005/11/respects_yvonne.html

What annoys me and frightens me about the Swappies is how blinkered they are to the danger Islamists are to cherished concepts of personal and religious freedom.

 

[cockneyrebel]

What the Socialist Worker article actually said was:

Although the UIC did not initially have strong popular support, there was a feeling that it upheld moral standards and discipline, and had a unifying and familiar ideology in Islam.

This ensured the UIC received popular backing during the battle for Mogadishu.

Which is just the same as saying that quite a lot of people in Afghanistan welcomed the Taliban for installing order. Doesn't mean you agree with the Taliban, it's just stating a fact.

Which is very different from:

I've also just seen an article from Socialist Worker praising the work of the Somali Islamic Courts Union for their work around 'morality'.

The mindless bashing of the SWP gets a bit boring after a while.

 

[lewislewis]

To be honest if the SWP want to abandon their revolutionary image to pursue electoral politics that's fair enough in my book, except that when the Welsh Socialist Alliance was going they criticised I think it was the SP for 'abandoning class politics' : D

 

[Groucho]

Why bin? A polite debate about the SWP and its alliances would be informative. I think the Swaps banging on about 'we are all Hizbollah' last year does show a sympathy with islamism.

Please give one piece of evidence that the SWP have stated anywhere 'we are all Hizbollah'. Oh you can't cos it's another lie. It can't be a polite debate if your 'debating' style is to make things up. Or do you want me to respond in kind and to politely accuse you of something you haven't done, eh?

(For the record the truth is that some people on a Stop the War demonstrations had placards that read 'We are all Hizbollah'. They were not SWP members, or SWP placards. The SWP did not agree with the placards, but defended the right of those with them to attend the demo).

 

[poster342002]

Which is just the same as saying that quite a lot of people in Afghanistan welcomed the Taliban for installing order.

I'm not even sure about this, tbh. I mean, how many people actually welcome the seizure of power by a group of totalitarian murderers - and how many people decider it's safer to say they welcome them out of fear of the consequences of being seen to dissent?

I've noticed this whole "line" being taken across the UK establishment-media whenever an islamist dictatorship takes power - that line being that the populace are broadly supportive of it. Now, I can see why the establishment would find it useful to depict ordinary muslim people as being supportive of reactionary regimes - but it ill-behoves the notionally-leftist press to do the same.

 

[Groucho]

Quite, and completely underestimates their level of popular support on the ground. Same with Hamas. They are both mass movements, and some of the most politically progressive mass movements in the Middle-East today.

As far as 'chasing the BNP out of Dagenham' is concerned - I wouldn't be surprised if that could have been the perception from a few naive student Swappies on the ground... Since Lewisham, the Fascists in Britain have a relatively well documented tradition of running a mile from physical confrontations with the Reds apart from on the most important occasions (Griffin's trial). Of course, I don't think they did chase them out - nor does anyone who knows anything about the politics of the community of the area - but the demo may well have stopped the BNP from organising anything else new.

As far as the SWPs allegiance to religious groups is concerned;

a) it's important to appeal to the radicals (the majority of Muslim youth) because they are the one's closest to our understanding of the State and capitalism - many simply find their criticism taking religious tones. We hope (and in many cases succeed (already cited examples from Muslim Respect members in Preston) in doing this).

b) we haven't, to date, allied ourselves with any organisations which don't have mass and popular support amongst Muslims in Britain, and without good reason. There are many reasons to support Hamas, not just because they're popular. I'm sure you've heard the arguments before, and I have (on a previous thread) gone into the programme of Hamas and Hizbollah and shown that they are politically progressive organisations.

c) we've not being making our allegiances with the 'right wing conservative' elements of the Muslim community... I don't know what you know about the demographic of Muslim Respect members but they are (without exception) the most progressive and forward looking members of the community. I have never met any Muslim Respect members who would show me this is otherwise. Making relations with the Mosque may well be making relations with conservatives, but it's also an act of bridging the divide between the insular and exclusive communities of the most marginalised Muslims with the rest of British society.

This is a good post DU. ...and here was me about to succumb to Mr Angry typa abuse against the vile lies of the despicable K-J, whilst you have shown restraint!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Please give one piece of evidence that the SWP have stated anywhere 'we are all Hizbollah'. Oh you can't cos it's another lie. It can't be a polite debate if your 'debating' style is to make things up. Or do you want me to respond in kind and to politely accuse you of something you haven't done, eh?

(For the record the truth is that some people on a Stop the War demonstrations had placards that read 'We are all Hizbollah'. They were not SWP members, or SWP placards. The SWP did not agree with the placards, but defended the right of those with them to attend the demo).

A swappie promoted demo though wasn't it.

Thank you for clarifying that it wasn't an official swappie placard.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

This is a good post DU. ...and here was me about to succumb to Mr Angry typa abuse against the vile lies of the despicable K-J, whilst you have shown restraint!

I was in the process of answering DU's interesting post. And FYI the word despicable should be better directed at people like Ridley.

 

[audiotech]

....and here was me about to succumb to Mr Angry typa abuse against the vile lies of the despicable K-J, whilst you have shown restraint!

Don't let the SCAB get to you is my advice.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I'm not even sure about this, tbh. I mean, how many people actually welcome the seizure of power by a group of totalitarian murderers - and how many people decider it's safer to say they welcome them out of fear of the consequences of being seen to dissent?

Good point. A lot of people in situations like that will keep schtum for safety reasons.

I've noticed this whole "line" being taken across the UK establishment-media whenever an islamist dictatorhsip takes power - that line being that the populace are broadly supportive of it. Now, I can see why the establishment would find it useful to depict ordinary muslim people as being supportive of reactionary regimes - but it ill-behoves the notionally-leftist press to do the same.

Agreed.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Don't let the SCAB get to you is my advice.

Yawn! x10

 

[Groucho]

A swappie promoted demo though wasn't it.

Thank you for clarifying that it wasn't an official swappie placard.

I saw a 'Go Naked Now!' placard on a StWC demo - also promoted by the SWP. It is not official SWP policy to get your kit off on demos, but we would defend the right...

There was also a 'make tea, not war' placard but the SWP have no official tea over e.g. coffee preference.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I saw a 'Go Naked Now!' placard on a StWC demo - also promoted by the SWP. It is not official SWP policy to get your kit off on demos, but we would defend the right...

There was also a 'make tea, not war' placard but the SWP have no official tea over e.g. coffee preference.

Nice one. The 'we are all Hizbollah' is still a pretty shitty placard to carry and doesn't do anything to build support outside the consituency that Respect seems to be aiming at. If it was a one off placard then fair do's but the reports I've seen is that it was a largeish bloc of demonstrators carrying said placards - can you confirm or deny that it was just one or two oddballs or a bloc?

Its the sort of thing that does get picked up by other media etc and does seriously discredit the STWC and associated orgs. To use an analogy: Its like carrying a 'Rights for Paedophiles' banner on a childrens fun day.

 

[Groucho]

Nice one. The 'we are all Hizbollah' is still a pretty shitty placard to carry and doesn't do anything to build support outside the consituency that Respect seems to be aiming at. If it was a one off placard then fair do's but the reports I've seen is that it was a largeish bloc of demonstrators carrying said placards - can you confirm or deny that it was just one or two oddballs or a bloc?

Its the sort of thing that does get picked up by other media etc and does seriously discredit the STWC and associated orgs. To use an analogy: Its like carrying a 'Rights for Paedophiles' banner on a childrens fun day.

It was a largish bloc - a particular group with politics the SWP does not agree with. Lindsey German, speaking on behalf of the StWC on the news made clear that the placards were not StWC ones, nor was the slogan endorsed by StWC, but Stop the War nonetheless supported their right to attend the demo. I vehemently disagree with your analogy, and didn't find the placard at all offensive (recall that Xtians and athiests in Lebanon all supported H)

 

[cockneyrebel]

I'm not even sure about this, tbh. I mean, how many people actually welcome the seizure of power by a group of totalitarian murderers - and how many people decider it's safer to say they welcome them out of fear of the consequences of being seen to dissent?

Whatever the truth in that clearly the SWP weren't saying what KJ was saying there were in that article.

And all this stuff about placards on demos is a load of rubbish. People have all kinds of placards on mass demos that you might agree with or disagree with, but people having placards saying "We are all Hizbollah" is not a reason to no platform them from the demo.

As it happens I've seen far worse on a STWC when al mujaharoon were chanting "gas, gas, gas the jews, kill, kill, kill the socialists". In that case I would have been more than happy to get them to leave the demo. But considering there was no more than 100-150 of them they were in no way representative of a demo of 10,000s.

 

[Belushi]

As it happens I've seen far worse on a STWC when al mujaharoon were chanting "gas, gas, gas the jews, kill, kill, kill the socialists".

Did they get a kicking?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Did they get a kicking?

No. I'm not sure that would have helped in the circumstances but I wouldn't have had a problem with stewards (who were a mixture of people, including muslims) telling them they weren't in any way welcome on the demo and stopping them from going on it.

Never seen them on any demos since.

 

[treelover]

Nice friends you have there D/U, do you think anyone takes takes you seriously, just look at how P/P has declined since you lot took it over, you are bound to go the way of the WRP, RCP, etc...

From The Times
June 5, 2007
Women broadcasters told to wear hijab or face death

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1884454.ece

 

[Prince Rhyus]

Funny turning up on the anti-Condi protest in Blackburn - the SWPs chants were more radical than theirs ("From Fallujah to Ramalla, Globalise the Intifada!").
[UNQUOTE]

But what did those chants achieve?

I bumped into a group of protestors outside some council offices today. They were protesting (loudly) about the proposed conversion of their comprehensive into an academy. (a few Unison posters there, with a mixture of families and children and not an SWP or otherwise poster/placard/paper in sight.)

Looking at one of their leaflets, I noticed that part of the proposal involved building on playingfields (for luxury flats to help finance the thing apparently.) I explained to a couple of them the rights that they had under planning laws - especially with regards to "call-in" (i.e. the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government) using powers under the Town and Country Planning Act to take away the power of the local authority to decide this case if it contravened Government policy on planning - one of which is along the lines of thou shalt not build on school playing fields. I told them who to contact so as to make a formal objection to it and whom to seek advice from in terms of dealing with this issue. Far more effective than localised chanting?

Obviously if the issue is about the entire political and economic system, there are going to be those who will not want to engage with the system as it currently is and will want to replace it by democratic means or otherwise. For those wanting to replace it by democratic means, there is an (imperfect, I'll admit - well...very imperfect actually) electoral process, and for those don't want to replace it by democratic means and want a violent revolution...we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.