Politics - no thanks

[untethered]

This "beyond politics" stuff is a nonsense.

Politics is about power relationships. Short of having a society where there is broad consensus on how the society should be run, there will be groups with differing views jockeying for power and influence. While some may prefer a more consensual rather than confrontational style, it ends up being the same thing. It's just that the real debates will happen behind closed doors rather than in public.

Where you don't have power relationships settled by political means, you have politics carried on by other means. Sometimes this is economics (power relationships determined by ownership and exchange), sometimes it is theology, sometimes it's plain old violence.

Given the choice of those three, I'd stick to (democratic) politics.

 

[butchersapron]

You think current power relations are autonomous of economics? Or of religion?

 

[untethered]

You think current power relations are autonomous of economics? Or of religion?

Not at all, but in a society some of these factors will be more powerful than others and in some societies, one may predominate over all others.

 

[butchersapron]

In which ones doesn't economics dominate then?

And that answer pulls the rug out from under your opwn longer post above anyway as it was based on the seperation of 'politics' from those other factors - in democratic societies anyway. In ours in other words.

 

[untethered]

In which ones doesn't economics dominate then?

I'm not saying that economics isn't hugely important. I'm just saying that in a society such as ours that runs in parallel with a political process. The two feed off each other.

And that answer pulls the rug out from under your opwn longer post above anyway as it was based on the seperation of 'politics' from those other factors - in democratic societies anyway. In ours in other words.

Well it's wrong to say they're entirely separate, which is probably how it sounded. However, even in a society like ours that is very strongly determined by economic factors, many debates about how economics should operate are carried out in the political sphere.

 

[audiotech]

Hegelian, neo-hippy clap trap.

 

[durruti02]

Its not just the end of youthful idealism. Its more of an observation that the more a person is involved in politics the less they achieve.

I've been consistently of the left but non aligned all my life and tiredness and disgust at the whole shebang is what I'm feeling.

hey yeah!! we all mate!!!

.. BUT please do not put the nonsense that masquarades as a left in with the real business of HELPING and CREATING and DOING good .. there are many many people nationwide who think the way you do .. that activism and politics is just alienation and does nothing to create community or change .. that politics and most leftists are humourless, uninspired, lacking empathy etc etc

i would argue what you see as politics is actually a BAR / barrier to change anyway and we are ALL better off without it .. talk to your neighbour put on tea dances help with kids football do a food co-op etc etc these have all creative politics that do NOT alienate are enjoyable and raise conciousness ..

 

[butchersapron]

Yep, death to politics as just another specialism, but yes to it as ongoing collective construction of communities.

 

[poster342002]

Most revolutions, yes, have ended in defeat, of one kind or another.

Especially if they're not actually revolutions, but the seizure of power by a cabal riding on a wave of popular anger.

 

[durruti02]

Yep, death to politics as just another specialism, but yes to it as ongoing collective construction of communities.

fair play!



could we have a Ongoing Collective Constructions of Communities Party or Collective? the OCCoCP or OCCoCC

 

[butchersapron]

Only if i'm pres for life

 

[muckypup]

It is a luxury of the rich to be uninterested in politics.

To judge oneself to be disinterested in politics is dangerous. You may wake up one day on the wrong side of a prison door wondering what on earth happened.

well said

As for me I find solace in the works of writers such as the Jewish Mystic, Philosopher and Political activist Simone Weil. Its profound and makes the rhetoric of party politics appear vulgar in contrast.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That, then, is a very strange definition of political. But in any case, you've used the adjective there. Choosing soap powders is politics is it? No way man.

Then frankly you haven't got a scooby about what you're pontificating about, fela.
Nothing new there, though.

Politics is the default mechanism that humans have used to organise their hierarchical lives. Or perhaps more accurately it is the mechanism that exists for those in power to dictate to those without.

No, part of politics is to provide a sense of "system" to peoples' lives, but that isn't the "be all and end all" by any means.

To give an example of where i'm personally coming from. Ordinary people gain positivity in life through the arts, music, and sports. The pure participation of any of those involves fuck all to do with politics. We just do them.

Absolute cock-smoking bollocks. Any action is a political action, because it makes a statement about you and your preferences. People don't just "do" things in some kind of robotic trance. They make choices.

Many people spend their lives working and playing and ignoring all the bullshit and lies and power play in the media.

That's "party politics" and "power politics". Please tell me you're not dumb enough to believe that they encompass the entirety of politics!

Politics is shit, it is divisive, and if you think one cannot live life without it, then start searching inwards. Coz i can tell you life can exist very happily without it.

Politics is politics. What you do with it can be "shit and divisive", it can also be the exact opposite.
You've got this rather juvenile conception that politics is only something that's done to "us", but it isn't, it's something that can be done by "us" too.

And that does not mean that it will suddenly rear its head and bite you in the arse just coz you ain't keeping abreast of the politics in the papers and the telly news. That is one of the cons, and posters would do well to recognise that.

I see my role in life to enjoy it where i can, but to always, and i mean always, speak out against any shit that is the outcome of politics.

Wow, you're such an *iconoclast, fela!

*(Obviously, when I say "iconoclast", I actually mean "selfish, self-obsessed, whining brat".)

 

[mk12]

I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that politics is pointless. Just been reading Things Can Only Get Better by John O’Farrell and its depressing in the conclusion I drew from the book which was you can knock yourself out by following a political party and not change anything.

Although there have been many progressive changes to society over the last 20 years or so I along with many others have become cynical about politicians and organisations working in the quasi political arena such as unions.

Really the only thing that you can achieve is by keeping your head down not getting involved in politics on a party political basis but supporting charities that do works that you can believe in.

The revolution that many on the left hope for will not happen, people don’t want it. People look at the results of the major political upheavals of the 20th century such as the Russian Revolution and the rise of nationalism in the 1930’s and see that such grand gestures only left destruction and misery in their wake. Stalin killed more people than the Tsar despite the depredations of that monarchist regime so what was the benefit of all those deaths? The poor Russians still live from hand to mouth in the majority whilst there is a new monarchy started up.

I’ve seen how the involvement of left politics has made certain situations worse even when the intention of those involved was to make things better. Groups spring up which give hope only to have those hopes dashed in an orgy of pocket lining, beauracracy and misguided actions that in some cases for example certain pro Palestinian groups who gob off about ‘we are all Hizbollah now’parties like Respect make conflicts worse rather than better.

On here the political discourse is worse than pointless. People use gigabytes of bandwidth just to argue about which failed revolutionary leader or party was superior to another. Dogmatism and lack of respect for others views abounds and that is something we are all guilty of including myself. You have groups that could hold their AGM’s in a phone box and will achieve precisely nothing arguing about tiny points of dogmatism whilst fash gain support from the very classes that should in theory be looking to the left for hope. I used to believe that revolutions could change things for the better but latterly it seems that revolutions are part of the problem not the solution.

I used to love arguing about politics, I grew up in a highly politically charged environment and saw politics as a way of improving the world but I really don’t see the point anymore I’ll support the charitable projects I believe in such as school exchanges between Israel and Palestine and local community projects in the UK but as regards unions, political parties and political theory then my view is now ‘fuck them let them get on with it without me’. Formerly I was passionate about using my vote now I look whats on offer and think can I be bothered because whatever you vote for you just get more tories and the smaller parties of t he left either can’t be trusted or are so ineffective or you get the impression that if they ever did gain any sort of power it would be misused for oppressive purposes.

I don’t think I’m alone in my cynical view of politics I think that it’s a growing tide of opinion about politics and the fault of that lies partly with the media portrayal of political activity but mostly because of the attitudes and actions of those who enter politics.

Been there done that worn out the t shirt.

If you are referring to "politics" with a capital P, then I agree with you. I would not say "Politics" is one of my interests, for example. But I believe everything is political with a small p.

 

[becky p]

Well said.

The key is changing ourselves, not others. That 'external moral code' is getting towards it. But i'd lose that word 'moral', which again refers to some humans deciding for other humans how they should behave.

The irony is that humans down the ages have written about and provided all the solutions. But politics has been the default and has been too powerful to be got rid of. Religions tried, but the bastards in power simply politicised them too!!

But i'm an optimist, and more and more people are coming to realise the complete futility of politics. Furthermore, politics is only for those in power, and the weapon they use to retain and spread their power base. But they are a very very small minority, and once enough people get on board, they will have to flee for their lives. Metaphorically, not literally.

Inner Change surely can't be seperated from what your external self does though can it?
We are all inter-dependent and to suggest that we should all just opt out of politics seems wrong IMO.

 

[TAE]

Politics - no thanks
[...]

I agree with most of what you said in your thread starting post, especially about supporting charities rather than parties.

But I cannot help feeling that 'giving up' is exactly what NewLabour types want us to do.

So I try to continue going to demos, writing letters to newspaper, voting, etc, at the very least because what happens if everyone just disengages and lets the power hungry lot go on unopposed.

But I can't say I'm very enthusiastic right now.

 

[jbob]

To give an example of where i'm personally coming from. Ordinary people gain positivity in life through the arts, music, and sports. The pure participation of any of those involves fuck all to do with politics. We just do them.

So the arts and sport aren't political are they? Of all the breathtaking claims you've posted on this thread, this just happened to catch my eye.

Presumably you're aware of the power popular music has upon youth culture? Is it all 'positive' as well? Perhaps you may have noticed how seriously people take supporting football teams? And maybe you've noticed the results of some of these affiliations? Perhaps you've missed, for example, that it sometimes gets a little heated when India play Pakistan at cricket?

What a pathetic thread. Considering that we're environmentally buggered and wealth discrepancies are increasing, if there's been any time we need more political engagement it's now.

Just a thought - have you ever considered the politics of your teaching English in Asia? Not having a pop, just curious.

 

[mk12]

Today we had an argument at work about MK Dons, as one f the girls' boyfriends works for them. Me and a mate were saying how shit it is that MK Dons exist. Others were saying it's a good thing for the local community.

Is that not a "political" discussion, despite the topic being about football?

 

[slaar]

This thread is based on such a massive misperception that it's hard to know where to start.

A little Hannah Arendt wouldn't go amiss as some bedtime reading, fela.

 

[Sweaty Betty]

All i know is when i was a nipper you knew what a tory stood for..labour and SWP, they all were exactly where they should be on the political spectrum...NOW its all a diluted mish mash and labour and tory being the real confusing one, i cant tell them apart at times!!

Or is it just that we dont have the substance and characters of passed leaders in todays political forum....i dunno, but im diinterested in it all to be fair...

 

[nightbreed]

To all those not interested in politices dont take part in this thread.

Sorted.

 

[fela fan]

Not subjective, no - whenever capitalism seems to be 'working' (i.e. only making a general rather than a total ballsup of people's lives) and radical change seems impossible some people always decide 'politics' is a waste of time, or find some other dodge, like dogs doing avoidance behaviour when they might lose a fight. It happened in France under Napoleon 111, in the UK in the 1860s (and later) and in Russia between the 1905 and 1917 revolutions.

While the bosses control the world there is no conceivable way someone quitting 'wins': they are just trying to switch their brains off, and you can't.

Cynicism is a mental disease, but fortunately it's curable by action.

Hey, just wait a moment here. However capitalism happens to be working is nothing to do with my own life choices, so please stop linking the two.

And who's 'quitting' here?? Recognising the futility of politics for creating positive change and for achieving a world of peace rather than war does not mean quitting.

You would do well to recognise that curbing the bosses control of the world will only become possible via means outside of politics. And if you find you cannot accept this premise, try and work out why it is that many have accepted it.

You have no right to be accusing anyone here of cynicism. And in any case it's not a mental disease, it's a perfectly understandable outcome from spending too much time trying to find solutions with the umbrella of politics. I think i can safely say that KJ will find a less cynical life is the result of forgetting about politics as some kind of solution to the shit that goes on in the world.

 

[fela fan]

There IS no way of dealing with injustice except changing the system -

This is the fundamental reason why we get nowhere. You can't change others, you can only change yourself. Politics is concerned with the former, and tell me why there is so much injustice around the world, still.

 

[fela fan]

Absolute cock-smoking bollocks. Any action is a political action, because it makes a statement about you and your preferences. People don't just "do" things in some kind of robotic trance. They make choices.

If you think that all actions are political, then you're welcome to your views. I hope you enjoy being so wrong.

 

[fela fan]

Just a thought - have you ever considered the politics of your teaching English in Asia? Not having a pop, just curious.

Er, yes. And i'm not teaching english, in asia, or anywhere. Haven't been doing so since 1999, so get something right.

Now, if this thread is pathetic get off it.

 

[fela fan]

This thread is based on such a massive misperception that it's hard to know where to start.

A little Hannah Arendt wouldn't go amiss as some bedtime reading, fela.

No thanks mate.

For those that wish to remain of the view that politics is inescapable, then fine. It's funny how disparaging they can get when others hold a different view. You're all welcome to remain stuck in politics. I'm telling you there's a world beyond it, and if you reject that idea, then that's up to you. Listening is not people's strong point.

I don't necessarily mean you there mate, but i certainly don't think being advised to read this or that writer has anything to add to the debate. It means that you have made a judgement on my overall knowledge of the world, and that really is nigh on impossible. You'd do better to suspend any judgments like that.

 

[fela fan]

Some people here are under the illusion that where you have society, you must have politics. Where you have organisation you must have politics.

I know where you are all coming from, but in trying to explain that this is not so, it is illuminating, as ever, to see how rude and belligerent some posters can be. And that would confirm that for them, yes, politics is unavoidable.

But to then say that that is true for everyone is their undoing. They insist they know, and they happily tell me i'm off my head. They never fucking explore these different opinions, never asking for further explanations. They just insist that i'm wrong, and by inference i'm supposed to accept that they're simply right.

Bullshit.

The nearest i can get in my dictionary (for it seems that people are operating with definitions they think come from the dictionary) to back up what they're saying is this: politics "occurs in all human interaction involving the exercise of influence..."

Now, what about people who do actions that are divorced from exerting influence, and actions that have nothing to do with the exercise of power relationships? If you tell me this is politics too, then you have gone well beyond anything that the dictionary will define it as.

 

[butchersapron]

There are no such people except the dead.

 

[dennisr]

Politics is great for the ruling elites. But only for them.

Lack of interest in politics by those who are not part of the ruling elites is also good for those ruling elites.

I can understand the cynicism though.

 

[slaar]

Now, what about people who do actions that are divorced from exerting influence, and actions that have nothing to do with the exercise of power relationships? If you tell me this is politics too, then you have gone well beyond anything that the dictionary will define it as.

The smallest child does this, when he cries to get his parents to give him some food.

It's called being human, and no vision of society is going to get anywhere without recognising that.