Politics - no thanks

[fela fan]

While i may agree with the OP in relation to the UK, (but not all of the EU), it certainly doesn't apply to the 'global south, just look at latin america where in many ways 'people movements' have been very successful. Imo, human beings are complex contradictory things and trying to shoehorn them into one overarching political belief is now doomed to failure. In terms of the personal,the thing is to just do what you can, don't expect too much, and if you are expecting too much, perhaps its time to examine your own ego?

Ah yes, latin america. How they advanced their cause back in the 60s and 70s, only to be fucked royally over by the politics and guns of their big northern neighbour.

Politics as a method for solving world problems, for bringing peace and eliminating war and injustice, can only be judged globally.

We have thousands of years of perpetual war. What more proof is needed to see how badly politics has failed the common man and woman?

Politics is great for the ruling elites. But only for them.

 

[fela fan]

That's what the hippies etc concluded in the 60s and 70s and I'd say that history has comprehensively proved them wrong. It's just more over-individualism that helps prevent the building of social movements. Self-improvement is not a bad ideal in itself but if that's all you focus on it's pure masturbation.

Have you seen The Century of the Self by Adam Curtis? A very interesting series.

Is it what they concluded?
How have you managed to say history proved them so 'comprehensively' wrong?
I said it was the 'key', not the only thing.

'Over-individualism'? What is this? How is an individual judged to be overly so?
Who's talking about improving oneself being the only thing they focus on?

Sorry mate, but this post is purely self-indulgent. You've simply reacted to words using your own opinions and understandings in life. You've seemingly made no effort to uncover the writer's meaning.

Then you ask me to consider what someone else is saying about it all. Sorry, i've earlier mentioned the need for non-followers. You argue your stuff with me, don't ask me to find someone else to read on the subject.

Now, back to individualism. This of course is one of the things politics is designed to wipe out. That would be very dangerous indeed for the status quo, to find out they have millions of individuals and independent thinkers to deal with.

In fact they'd be without a job, unless they could somehow kill us all off without getting caught. Pure masturbation (what's the pure variety compared to just plain old masturbation anyway?)? Nah, a very worrying development for those in political power.

You think that a bad thing?

 

[Brainaddict]

You've simply reacted to words using your own opinions and understandings in life. You've seemingly made no effort to uncover the writer's meaning.

Do you need a hand pulling your head from out your arse? I'm always willing to join together with others to achieve socially desirable ends

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This discussion is becoming bogged down in semantic misunderstandings. The OP may have meant 'British Party Politics', but actually said just 'politics'. People aren't all talking about the same thing here, I think.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

This discussion is becoming bogged down in semantic misunderstandings. The OP may have meant 'British Party Politics', but actually said just 'politics'. People aren't all talking about the same thing here, I think.

Clarification. Although in the main I was referring to UK politics I was also referring to the mass 'isms' that have infected the last centrury or so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You can't live without politics. You may be able to disengage from the party politics of the ruling elite (although even that is a submission to their whims), but you can't disengage from politics per se except by killing yourself.

 

[Crispy]

You can't live without politics. You may be able to disengage from the party politics of the ruling elite (although even that is a submission to their whims), but you can't disengage from politics per se except by killing yourself.

Or by becoming a self-sufficient hermit.

 

[Fruitloop]

Not believing in politics is like not believing in gravity - it carries on perfectly well without your belief. Just don't go jumping off any tall buildings and expecting to fly.

 

[slaar]

You can't live without politics. You may be able to disengage from the party politics of the ruling elite (although even that is a submission to their whims), but you can't disengage from politics per se except by killing yourself.

Which was my point to fela.

fela, I think you have a different definition of 'politics'. To me, politics is not being dictated to by others, although that can happen. Politics is the process by which humans organise themselves into collectives to fight for mutual interests. Getting rid of that, even if it weren't impossible, would just mean being reduced to a mass of individuals being picked off by elites. Which, ironically, is precisely what you claim is the problem with the UK.

Politics is the solution. Idealism is not.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You can't live without politics. You may be able to disengage from the party politics of the ruling elite (although even that is a submission to their whims), but you can't disengage from politics per se except by killing yourself.

You can disengage from politics. Its quite possible like it is possible to disengage oneself from nicotine. A friend who I spent some time with at the weekend has nothing to do with politics either as a party member, supporter, voter or debater and is none the worse for it. And she made me think why on earth do I bother with party politics, the union, voting etc

I'm fed up with getting my head shot off becuase I've too often been the only one to stick it over the parapet so I'm just not going to put myself in that positoin any more. I'll speak out against injustices and give charity but that is really all I want to do at the moment. Engaging in debate on here with dogmatic tossers for example is a waste of time and is unconstructive.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or by becoming a self-sufficient hermit.

Even then, it could come along and bite you if you don't hear about the plans of neighbouring settlements to encroach onto 'your' land in time to do anything about it.

 

[_angel_]

Or by becoming a self-sufficient hermit.

Nope you could still be nicked as a vagrant. Or summat.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or by becoming a self-sufficient hermit.

On the whole I'd find death more appealing, thanks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You can disengage from politics. Its quite possible like it is possible to disengage oneself from nicotine. A friend who I spent some time with at the weekend has nothing to do with politics either as a party member, supporter, voter or debater and is none the worse for it. And she made me think why on earth do I bother with party politics, the union, voting etc

I'm fed up with getting my head shot off becuase I've too often been the only one to stick it over the parapet so I'm just not going to put myself in that positoin any more. I'll speak out against injustices and give charity but that is really all I want to do at the moment. Engaging in debate on here with dogmatic tossers for example is a waste of time and is unconstructive.

Okay, fair enough.

Every time you post any vaguely political point on any of the Urban forums, you're going to have people politely (and possibly not so politely ) asking you to withdraw your comment as it is "political". You do realise that, don't you?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You can disengage from politics. Its quite possible like it is possible to disengage oneself from nicotine. A friend who I spent some time with at the weekend has nothing to do with politics either as a party member, supporter, voter or debater and is none the worse for it. And she made me think why on earth do I bother with party politics, the union, voting etc

But that's not "politics" - or rather, politics is not that. I have nothing to do with any party of any sort either but I'd certainly call myself political.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But that's not "politics" - or rather, politics is not that. I have nothing to do with any party of any sort either but I'd certainly call myself political.

Yes, KJ appears to only be talking about party politics.

We do not have to accept politics as it is defined by a handful of parties. This is one of the problems with 'democracy' - the terms of debate are set so narrow that party politics is indeed irrelevant to many people. Politics, on the other hand, most certainly is not.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Okay, fair enough.

Every time you post any vaguely political point on any of the Urban forums, you're going to have people politely (and possibly not so politely ) asking you to withdraw your comment as it is "political". You do realise that, don't you?

Oh fuuuuuccccckkkk a hostage to fortune or what LOL! At least an enforced silence will give me a period of repentance to reflect on matters political.

Mind you just how political is Suburban and Knobbing and Sobbing?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh fuuuuuccccckkkk a hostage to fortune or what LOL! At least an enforced silence will give me a period of repentance to reflect on matters political.

Mind you just how political is Suburban and Knobbing and Sobbing?

That's the crux, mate. Everything is political, from your choice of one detergent over another to which charities you donate to, to whether you have an opinion on how high locals in your area should be allowed to have the fences in their back gardens.

KBJ posts in K&S "I've got itchy balls, could it be my washing powder?"

Me: "Oi, POLITICS!"

 

[KeyboardJockey]

That's the crux, mate. Everything is political, from your choice of one detergent over another to which charities you donate to, to whether you have an opinion on how high locals in your area should be allowed to have the fences in their back gardens.

KBJ posts in K&S "I've got itchy balls, could it be my washing powder?"

Me: "Oi, POLITICS!"

LOL!

It is true that politics pervades most things but the pointless bickering over minor points of doctrine which infects the left and the abandonment of any position apart from gainign power which pervades the mainstream poltiics means that I feel alienated from political discourse. I'm not the only one who thinks that way and it is this alienation with the mainstream concerned with only lining their own pockets and the alternatives on the left either seen as ineffective or at worse actively treasonous to the people they allege that they support.

I don't see my choice of charities as being a political decision more a moral one. For example I choose to support the above mentioned cross community Israeli / Palestinian org because I can SEE and hear the positive affects of it and is contributing more to peace (abeit by baby steps) than all the screaming nutters who infest U75 whenever the subject is mentioned.

 

[rhys gethin]

good point about the big campaigns mentioned. However, what politics has become is worse than useless. Unions don't achieve anything, councillors don't achieve anything, small ultra leftist groups are barking mad and will NEVER gain anything like the support that they believe they deserve, our MP's are bent and we are ruled by quangos and managment consultants, we are taxed heavily for very little gain and there is no way of challenging the executive, anarchism is total bollocks which ignores the fact that without some form of external moral code human beings will just grab and grab for themselves. A world run on anarchist lines would look like a global version of Afghanistan with warlords running things.

People always feel like this in times of defeat and go in for religion, 'getting on' or cynicism. The great thing is to work hard at not being a temporal provincial like Blair. Things change.

 

[fela fan]

Which was my point to fela.

fela, I think you have a different definition of 'politics'. To me, politics is not being dictated to by others, although that can happen. Politics is the process by which humans organise themselves into collectives to fight for mutual interests. Getting rid of that, even if it weren't impossible, would just mean being reduced to a mass of individuals being picked off by elites. Which, ironically, is precisely what you claim is the problem with the UK.

Politics is the solution. Idealism is not.

Yeah, but look mate, i've not been talking about getting rid of politics. I've been talking about finding a new default in life other than politics. About reducing its influence. I don't believe you can get rid of it.

I've also been talking globally on this thread, not any country specifically.

As for your comments on the alternative being a mass of individuals, i'm talking about individuals, yes, but i've yet to even begin to say how i think that might work. So any speculation about what i believe there is just that. I'm not yet prepared to expound on my post-politics vision.

And no, politics will never be the solution, not part of any solution that leads to a world of perpetual peace rather than perpetual war. If it was, don't you think it would have produced this by now? And again, no, i'm not talking about idealism, for that is yet another bloody 'ism'!!

 

[fela fan]

That's the crux, mate. Everything is political, from your choice of one detergent over another to which charities you donate to, to whether you have an opinion on how high locals in your area should be allowed to have the fences in their back gardens.

That, then, is a very strange definition of political. But in any case, you've used the adjective there. Choosing soap powders is politics is it? No way man.

Politics is the default mechanism that humans have used to organise their hierarchical lives. Or perhaps more accurately it is the mechanism that exists for those in power to dictate to those without.

To give an example of where i'm personally coming from. Ordinary people gain positivity in life through the arts, music, and sports. The pure participation of any of those involves fuck all to do with politics. We just do them.

Many people spend their lives working and playing and ignoring all the bullshit and lies and power play in the media.

Politics is shit, it is divisive, and if you think one cannot live life without it, then start searching inwards. Coz i can tell you life can exist very happily without it.

And that does not mean that it will suddenly rear its head and bite you in the arse just coz you ain't keeping abreast of the politics in the papers and the telly news. That is one of the cons, and posters would do well to recognise that.

I see my role in life to enjoy it where i can, but to always, and i mean always, speak out against any shit that is the outcome of politics.

 

[fela fan]

People always feel like this in times of defeat and go in for religion, 'getting on' or cynicism.

I'm sorry, but that is just subjective opinion.

Religions are completely politicised anyway, so they provide no alternative for those pissed off by politics.

Who's talking of times of defeat? I'd say that the day one, who has always been interested in politics, decides it's all futile and quits, is the day they have won, not lost.

Cynicism is one of the various negative outcomes and by-products of politics.

 

[fela fan]

I reckon that you lot are just dissed that you've lost a brother/sister to the cause!

Escaping the clutches of politics is a heady experience in my book.

 

[butchersapron]

That, then, is a very strange definition of political. But in any case, you've used the adjective there. Choosing soap powders is politics is it? No way man.

Looking at the chain of choices and structures that have led to the production of that soap powder and the effects that those process have along the say is looking at social phenomena in a political way - so yes, it is. Most things that involve mass production, circulation, transport, consumption can be looked at politically. That doesn't mean that it's the only way to view these things, but a flat refusal to means that you're missing out on what may well be their most important characterisrics, their defining features.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Religions are completely politicised anyway, so they provide no alternative for those pissed off by politics..

I think that people of religious faith can engage with certain campaigns but the involvement of organised religion in party politics is dangerous and to be avoided (something that Respect failed to think about). I for example believe that there should be a just settlement and compensation for the Palestinians but that is a moral point of view but one which will not be achieved by top down or revolutionary politics rather on the basis of individuals and communities saying 'this is wrong what can I do to alleviate this suffering'. This approach will always achieve more than party or issue politics can do becuase with issue and party politics ego gets in the way.

Who's talking of times of defeat? I'd say that the day one, who has always been interested in politics, decides it's all futile and quits, is the day they have won, not lost..

Thats my position sadly. I'm choosing to withdraw from politics for a while and concentrate on doing good outside the political arena.

 

[fela fan]

Looking at the chain of choices and structures that have led to the production of that soap powder and the effects that those process have along the say is looking at social phenomena in a political way - so yes, it is. Most things that involve mass production, circulation, transport, consumption can be looked at politically. That doesn't mean that it's the only way to view these things, but a flat refusal to means that you're missing out on what may well be their most important characterisrics, their defining features.

There's no refusal on my part mate. I think your post adequately informs readers of the more than subtle differences between nouns and their adjective counterparts.

I accept your example here of what can be traced to political activity.

But i do not accept that making a choice of soap powder has anything whatsoever to do with politics.

 

[rhys gethin]

I'm sorry, but that is just subjective opinion.

Religions are completely politicised anyway, so they provide no alternative for those pissed off by politics.

Who's talking of times of defeat? I'd say that the day one, who has always been interested in politics, decides it's all futile and quits, is the day they have won, not lost.

Cynicism is one of the various negative outcomes and by-products of politics.

Not subjective, no - whenever capitalism seems to be 'working' (i.e. only making a general rather than a total ballsup of people's lives) and radical change seems impossible some people always decide 'politics' is a waste of time, or find some other dodge, like dogs doing avoidance behaviour when they might lose a fight. It happened in France under Napoleon 111, in the UK in the 1860s (and later) and in Russia between the 1905 and 1917 revolutions.

While the bosses control the world there is no conceivable way someone quitting 'wins': they are just trying to switch their brains off, and you can't.

Cynicism is a mental disease, but fortunately it's curable by action.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Not subjective, no - whenever capitalism seems to be 'working' (i.e. only making a general rather than a total ballsup of people's lives) and radical change seems impossible some people always decide 'politics' is a waste of time, or find some other dodge, like dogs doing avoidance behaviour when they might lose a fight. It happened in France under Napoleon 111, in the UK in the 1860s (and later) and in Russia between the 1905 and 1917 revolutions.

Its not a 'dodge' as you put it it is the very sensible procedure of looking at evidence and picking battles that can be won. IMO the Russian Revolution was an utter disaster for the Russian people. Maybe if there had been compromise millions of deaths could have been avoided.

While the bosses control the world there is no conceivable way someone quitting 'wins': they are just trying to switch their brains off, and you can't.

I haven't 'switched off my brain' as you put it rather looked around at what is happening in politics and consiidering if there is any better way of dealing with injustices than pointless lefty shouting or joining the consumer treadmill.

Cynicism is a mental disease, but fortunately it's curable by action.

Sometimes Rhys the 'action' is worse than the disease of cynicism. The fact that most revolutions have ended up as oppression is a case in point.

 

[rhys gethin]

Its not a 'dodge' as you put it it is the very sensible procedure of looking at evidence and picking battles that can be won. IMO the Russian Revolution was an utter disaster for the Russian people. Maybe if there had been compromise millions of deaths could have been avoided.


I haven't 'switched off my brain' as you put it rather looked around at what is happening in politics and consiidering if there is any better way of dealing with injustices than pointless lefty shouting or joining the consumer treadmill.


Sometimes Rhys the 'action' is worse than the disease of cynicism. The fact that most revolutions have ended up as oppression is a case in point.

Most revolutions, yes, have ended in defeat, of one kind or another. If any had ended in victory there'd be no fashion of despair now. I didn't say YOU had necessarily tried to switch off your brain (I think). There IS no way of dealing with injustice except changing the system - it is like charity, keeping the poor always with you, the 'alternative'. Think of the battles that were 'won' in the past and ask who won them, and who's trying for a replay, and bear in mind that the Russian working class was a tiny minority in that state. The world doesn't change because we get pissed off trying: it remains a stinking meat market.