Policing Brixton: correspondence with Lambeth/London Assembly
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The requirement is more than your simplistic "goodies in hoodies" line.Groucho said:
But if you do not countenance any preventative powers then you will inevitably cause more members of the community to be harassed and alarmed and victimised. And some (perhaps many) of the perpetrators will never be brought to justice because reactive investigation will only ever succeed in tracing relatively few after the event. And even then the evidence may not be there. Do you accept that?
Precisely.RushcroftRoader said:
The disproportion referred to compares stop/search / arrests / DNA profiles or whatever against census data. They need to be compared against more relevant data, such as "street population" for stop and search. The issue is far, far more complex than it appears at first and whilst there may well be institutional racism at work (it's almost inevitable that there is) it is not as bad as is portrayed.
Street robbery, for which immediate stop and search is probably the most realistic reactive tactic capable of gaining enough evidence to secure a conviction, is almost entirely committed by black youths in inner city areas. It is inevitable, therefore, that the majority of those stopped in connection with circulated descriptions are going to be black.
And your excuse for the wholly disproportionate number of innocent DNA records stored? It's lousy whichever way you look at it.
I suspect that I'm not going to be arguing the majority view on these boards, but I've seen the distrust that stop and searches breed in the community, and just how duff (and often rude) the methods serving officers use to select 'suspects.' I'd hate to see the same bunch of inflammatory numbnuts (in the main) get extra powers to 'disperse' people based largely on their discretion and good judgement. Earn the trust, prove good judgement... and then the added powers can perhaps come. It's too soon.
I suspect that I'm not going to be arguing the majority view on these boards, but I've seen the distrust that stop and searches breed in the community, and just how duff (and often rude) the methods serving officers use to select 'suspects.' I'd hate to see the same bunch of inflammatory numbnuts (in the main) get extra powers to 'disperse' people based largely on their discretion and good judgement. Earn the trust, prove good judgement... and then the added powers can perhaps come. It's too soon.
RushcroftRoader
Well-Known Member
Anyway, the proposed dispersal zones are nothing like old fashioned stop and search. Community representatives will be in charge of how they are used and can withdrawl the powers from the police at any time.
agricola said:
Because I've been stopped over 5 times in comparatively recent years. And remarkably never charged or given any particularly good reason - if I hear the 'standard' excuse of 'you match the suspect's description" (I'd love to see to hear one that really matched my Heinz 58 make-up) one more time then I'll probably burst into laughter on the spot. This doesn't include the remarkable stops myself and a black friend used to suffer on the City of London roadblocks - it may have been a VW Scirocco, but we hardly fitted the IRA profile.
Multiply that by umpteen friends, mainly the 'ethnic' ones you'll be unsurprised to hear, that have had much the same treatment over the years. People do talk you know.
I can't speak for the exact methods that the individual officers used to identify us, but I can tell you that they've been on shaky, unconvincing given reasons most of time, generally coupled with rudeness that makes you resent the officers and powers concerned.
RushcroftRoader said:
Not controversial, just wrong. I've seen white and asian dealers in Brixton. Sorry for pissing on your stereotype fireworks.
Yes, but if I crashed my tube train or fucked up five times in a row then I'd expect criticism and to lose the right. When are you going to learn from your mistakes rather than maintaining that there's nothing wrong when there clearly is a problem?
Why is criticism of the police so hard for you to take? Wouldn't you say the mentality you're displaying (i.e defend our own/police against the rest) isn't precisely one of the problems which hinders community relations?
Why is criticism of the police so hard for you to take? Wouldn't you say the mentality you're displaying (i.e defend our own/police against the rest) isn't precisely one of the problems which hinders community relations?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
tarannau said:Hey, I believed your dismissive, most patronising post was indication enough, but feel free to show a little more insight and understanding.
Look, you are the one who claims knowledge of how things happen based on five incidents over an undisclosed number of years.
agricola said:
can i be one of the posters queuing up to point and laugh at your failure to process even the most basic information presented to you?
Ah well, we can only hope that Agricola's real-world judgement is somewhat better than his written comprehension.
Still, it's a good example of an overdefensive, can't be anything wrong, reaction. And besides, since when has it been necessary to have to perform someone's job before you can comment on their performance? Nobody's denying that policing can be a tough, stressful and demanding job at times, but it's easy enough to appreciate when someone's being a rude, undiscerning bastard to you. I don't need to be a dustman, for example, to see whether they've done a good job of cleaning my street
Still, it's a good example of an overdefensive, can't be anything wrong, reaction. And besides, since when has it been necessary to have to perform someone's job before you can comment on their performance? Nobody's denying that policing can be a tough, stressful and demanding job at times, but it's easy enough to appreciate when someone's being a rude, undiscerning bastard to you. I don't need to be a dustman, for example, to see whether they've done a good job of cleaning my street
I'm not aware of any significant decision making process between arrest and the retention of DNA - get arrested, get DNA retained - and so the issue, if there is one, must come before arrest. Are white suspects who could be arrested not being arrested? Are black suspects being arrested unlawfully? And, if so, why are they not complaining in huge numbers and suing for unlawful arrest (hardly an unusual occurence where that has happened)?tarannau said:
I don't know the answer to the question but I do know (a) it is not a simple, single issue and (b) comparison of any criminal justice demographics against census data is fraught with sources of potential error.
You may believe it is ALL down to racism by police officers. It isn't. Some may be, but whilst you only address one issue you will not solve the problem, particularly if it is not the major issue (and I think, on it's own, it is a minor issue).
In my experience that is by far the thing which pisses people off most ... and it is the thing which the police service, if it wished, could address most readily. Sadly the dealings I have had with officers recently have done little to convince me it is being addressed at all ...tarannau said:
I did.Blagsta said:
Why don't you engage with the discussion instead of looking for an excuse to have a pop?
Actually I agree DB, it's those bad experiences of the police that stack up and leave a bad taste. Some officers too often forget that, in addition to the primary law enforcement role, they're in, what's in essence, a customer facing role requiring a certain degree of politeness and dispassionate professionalism
Every bad encounter with the police does get reported back to friends and the neigbourhood, just the same as a bad customer experience. See Ngeru's recent post on this board about her being threatened with arrest when fleeing from a shop on fire (largely the same happened to me when there was a bomb scare near the town hall) and Dub's problems on the Circle Line with dodgy police allegations. There seems an unwillingness to concede that these front line experiences can be key in building good relationships and trust with the police - too many stress based excuses are given for a lack of politeness and professionalism that would be inexcusable in most jobs.
It's also indicative that there have been at least a couple of serving officers who have acted like unrepentant cocks on these boards, trolling away merrily. Perhaps they're on on the wind-up most of the time, but the contemptuous attitude, inability to respond to criticism and general know-it-all attitudes were there for all to see.
Every bad encounter with the police does get reported back to friends and the neigbourhood, just the same as a bad customer experience. See Ngeru's recent post on this board about her being threatened with arrest when fleeing from a shop on fire (largely the same happened to me when there was a bomb scare near the town hall) and Dub's problems on the Circle Line with dodgy police allegations. There seems an unwillingness to concede that these front line experiences can be key in building good relationships and trust with the police - too many stress based excuses are given for a lack of politeness and professionalism that would be inexcusable in most jobs.
It's also indicative that there have been at least a couple of serving officers who have acted like unrepentant cocks on these boards, trolling away merrily. Perhaps they're on on the wind-up most of the time, but the contemptuous attitude, inability to respond to criticism and general know-it-all attitudes were there for all to see.
