Policing Brixton: correspondence with Lambeth/London Assembly
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kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Actually I think that the law should be changed to allow local residents more power to police their own communities. So far on this thread the only thing that's come up is 'The State should do more, provide more and spend more money' - and of course, spending money works, right?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I did, and it's full of 'The State should do X and Y to help everyone and everything that was ever poor or suffered'
I don't have a problem with the stuff about the Maudsley, but that's basically a list saying 'Please give us...'
I don't have a problem with the stuff about the Maudsley, but that's basically a list saying 'Please give us...'
editor
hiraethified
Of course it's relevant to Brixton, but I don't think a debate focussing exclusively around the complex issues of drug prohibition and treatment is appropriate for this forum.Blagsta said:
Moreover, it's unlikely to be read by all interested parties because neither the thread title or the choice of forum give many clues as to the current debate.
That's why I suggested the following some time ago:
editor
hiraethified
But all the opening posts are dealing with all the problems relating to Brixton, not just drugs.Jonti said:
I'm trying to get local councillors involved in debating grassroots Brixton issues and don't see how a general debate about drug prohibition is going to progress that discussion.
No future!
I'm not in favour of 'dispersal zones'. If people are breaking the law they will be arrested. The police shouldn't have power to move people on that they don't like the look of. If the people moved on are baddies they will just be bad somewhere else. If they are goodies in hoodies they will justifiably feel criminalised by the cops.
Where is the evidence that ASBOs are reducing anti-social behaviour? Some youth are being criminalised and some criminals are using ASBOs as a badge of honour.
At the end of the day heavier policing is never the answer. Nor are yet more prisons. We have ever more in prison, more police, armed police, more police powers and no sign whatsoever that any of it is reducing anti-social crime. Whatever happened to tough on the causes of crime?
Why isn't there more crime in the streets of Guildford? Is it just that no-one has tried to sell crack in the area?
A hostile external force like the police couldn't deal with crime even if it were one of their top priorities. Why are communities so atomised with so little cohesion and so little community spirit? Why do so many people drop through the net? What leads young kids to feel they have so little to look forward to in life they may as well start shooting each other?
Does drug use really cause crime? Or is use of crack another symptom of the general malaise and rottenness, contributing to a downward spiral with more deep seated causes? We live in a grab all you can get, show off your material possessions or you're worth jack shit culture, and fuck everyone else.
More questions than answers but policing doesn't deal with crime. Only communities can do that.
I'm not in favour of 'dispersal zones'. If people are breaking the law they will be arrested. The police shouldn't have power to move people on that they don't like the look of. If the people moved on are baddies they will just be bad somewhere else. If they are goodies in hoodies they will justifiably feel criminalised by the cops.
Where is the evidence that ASBOs are reducing anti-social behaviour? Some youth are being criminalised and some criminals are using ASBOs as a badge of honour.
At the end of the day heavier policing is never the answer. Nor are yet more prisons. We have ever more in prison, more police, armed police, more police powers and no sign whatsoever that any of it is reducing anti-social crime. Whatever happened to tough on the causes of crime?
Why isn't there more crime in the streets of Guildford? Is it just that no-one has tried to sell crack in the area?
A hostile external force like the police couldn't deal with crime even if it were one of their top priorities. Why are communities so atomised with so little cohesion and so little community spirit? Why do so many people drop through the net? What leads young kids to feel they have so little to look forward to in life they may as well start shooting each other?
Does drug use really cause crime? Or is use of crack another symptom of the general malaise and rottenness, contributing to a downward spiral with more deep seated causes? We live in a grab all you can get, show off your material possessions or you're worth jack shit culture, and fuck everyone else.
More questions than answers but policing doesn't deal with crime. Only communities can do that.
editor
hiraethified
*bangs headBlagsta said:So what is this thread for then, if not for discussion around social problems?
If you read the opening posts,you'll see it's about a lot of local issues in Brixton and an attempt to get local politicians to engage here in discussion about those issues.
Seeing as they're unlikely to be able to change national drug policies towards prohibition and only work on a local level, I can't see the point in turning the thread around to focus solely on something that can only be changed by MPs and national bodies.
Sure, the issues surrounding drug prohibition is something that should be brought up and acknowledged, but if that's all people want to talk about, then it would make far more sense to start a thread in a more appropriate forum with a suitable title.
editor
hiraethified
Yes, but this thread is in the Brixton forum and the opening posts deal with a whole host of Brixton-specific issues being discussed by a local Lambeth councillor and London Assembly member.Blagsta said:
The problems of Moorlands/Somerleyton Road are specific to Brixton and they're not all about drugs, either.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
That's really great, and well worth doing. But the very earliest responses brought Brixton's drugs trade into the picture. If we can discuss the impact of the international drugs trade on our local community, it seems odd to rule its, ahh, legal framework out of bounds.editor said:
I suspect you will find that at least some of the people you wish to influence know that present policies are pissing in the wind; lack community support; and are demonstrably unenforceable. And that this leads the law into disrepute and many youths into a dangerous criminality.
And, sometimes, to their deaths
(weeps)
I hate to sound like I advocate some sort of "Respect Agenda" but I think the evident and high profile dealing outside Woolworths creates a bigger problem. In the long term the social issues and issues of prohiobition need to be sorted out, but in the short term targeted policing would help.
When chatting to a friend of mine who's a DC at Brixton I asked why the dealers were never picked up, the answer was obvious, different ones will be back the next day. However, the dealers under the bus stops often have younger (11-15) kids with them who see that you can break the law with apparent impunity. Also the commuters on their way home see that the "police aren't bothered" and are further drawn to Daily Mail style conclusions about the collapse of society.
Higher profile policing on a continuous basis would show that drug dealers in Brixton are not immune from the law thus sending a better message to the younger youths. Also if there were police in the area more often the kids would see that they aren't just "pigs" who swoop in in fast cars to nick people. I know this is what Safer Neighbourhoods is meant to do but that is ward based and frankly the high street could do with it's own SN team. Removing the bus stops would help as well, it's not like anyone other than the dealers dares to stand under them.
When chatting to a friend of mine who's a DC at Brixton I asked why the dealers were never picked up, the answer was obvious, different ones will be back the next day. However, the dealers under the bus stops often have younger (11-15) kids with them who see that you can break the law with apparent impunity. Also the commuters on their way home see that the "police aren't bothered" and are further drawn to Daily Mail style conclusions about the collapse of society.
Higher profile policing on a continuous basis would show that drug dealers in Brixton are not immune from the law thus sending a better message to the younger youths. Also if there were police in the area more often the kids would see that they aren't just "pigs" who swoop in in fast cars to nick people. I know this is what Safer Neighbourhoods is meant to do but that is ward based and frankly the high street could do with it's own SN team. Removing the bus stops would help as well, it's not like anyone other than the dealers dares to stand under them.
editor
hiraethified
Do you think a local councillor looking to engage a section of the community on local issues is going to be too interested in joining the boards just to take part in a totally different debate about national drug policy and the benefits/disadvantages of prohibition?Jonti said:
I think Brixton users of these boards could be in danger of missing a very valuable opportunity for local discussion here.
There are far more issues than just the woes of drug prohibition affecting Brixton residents and I'd prefer a more pragmatic and focussed debate about what can be done in Brixton to improve things right now.
If all you want to talk about is national drug policies and prohibition I respectfully suggest you start a thread in a more appropriate general forum, otherwise I'll just give up on this thread.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Yeah, it's scary, alright.editor said:
Any nob can chuck a bottle. Any nob can thrust a knife. And any nob can pull a trigger.
One time I recently helped the cops was to deal with a burglary against my neighbours, The cops that came through my gaffe included a handler and her dog, which got *very* exited. The dog-handler calmed down her beast with the reassuring words, "Easy now, we're not busting this place today."
Oh, good. I suppose
But local Brixton councillors, local Brixton MPs and the local authority and police can ONLY work within the current legal framework, whether they (or anyone else) like it or not.Blagsta said:
You may well think that legalisation or decriminalisation is the only long term / strategic answer ... but even Ken Livingstone can't suddenly declare that to be the case.
They haven't. That is not what a dispersal zone is. There are requirements. We've done all this on another thread.Groucho said:
The basic idea is that when the communities (the entity YOU identify as being the only one's who can address crime and disorder) draw attention to people causing harassment and concern, or fear thereof, they can be moved on without having to wait for an actual offence to be committed. Do you think members of the public should be able to move people on, rather than involve the police? Do you think members of the public should be empowered to ask people acting in an anti-social manner to stop or whatever? Or do you not think anyone should be empowered to do that?
RushcroftRoader
Well-Known Member
Here is the link to the thread specifically set up to discuss dispersal zones.
http://urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=204448
http://urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=204448
detective-boy said:
My point. It is not tolerable for the police to decide someone is a criminal who isn't on the basis that the police, or someone else for that matter, thinks they might break the law in the future.
I repeat there are goodies in hoodies, just as there are crims in suits.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
The problem is that it seems there is no short term or medium term answer either, not within the current framework. If there were one, it would likely have been implemented already, the issue is so very pressing.detective-boy said:
I'm amazed no-one's picked up on the implications of the OP.
Many readers will already know that Rastafarians are a religious group, broadly Christian, that use marijuana as part of their worship. They are peaceable, and very committed to reason (to the extent possible within a biblical framework), and to working things out by talking them through.Valerie Shawcross said:
Their Temple was taken over by yardie types for quite a while. Eventually, police help was sought to get shot of the yardie types. The fact the yardies were able to take over in the first place can *only* be laid at the door of the prohibitionists.
We too can only work within the constraints of the current legislation. And it looks like we've largely chosen not to co-operate under that regime, because it targets us as well.
I think this is what is called an impasse.
detective-boy said:They haven't. That is not what a dispersal zone is. There are requirements. We've done all this on another thread.
Yes, just as there are requirements re. stop and search, which still seem to stop a disproportionate number of BME 'suspects' with unfailing regularity. There was some remarkable statistic about the number of 'innocent' DNA records stored on the (police) database as a result - I think Featherstone (in Parliamentary questions) got an answer that over 50% of the innocent records stored as London records came from non-whites, which tells its own depressing story
I think most, with the exception of the Reg Hollis Police Federation, would concede that there's still a problem with institutionalised racism in the Met. Why should we give these discretionary 'preventative' powers to officers who haven't earnt the trust of much of the community.
RushcroftRoader
Well-Known Member
tarannau said:
Ever seen a white drug dealer in central Brixton?
Not making any judgements vis a vis stop and search, but just pointing out the reality of the situation. Sorry for being controversial, but there you go.
The dealers are regularly arrested. And they go through the cycle of charge and court and prison and come back. Meanwhile others replace them. If you really wanted to do what you suggest (bearing in mind the same issues apply at lots of other locations around the UK) you would need way more officers to be constantly observing, gathering evidence, arresting and processing the dealers, way more court / CPS / Legal aid funding to process them and way more prison places to deal with the inevitable, ever-increasing jail sentences.Graz said:
And still you wouldn't solve the problem. At best you would displace it. Because whilst there is a market for drugs, someone will step into the breach and sell them.
And the constant fights between officers and drug dealers who are unwilling to be arrested (they don't all come quietly, you know) would hardly put the minds of the kids at rest - they would just view the police as "pigs" who are constantly "attacking" people in the High Street ...
