Police whip up the media G20-style for Cardiff football match

[Darios]

what is this about then who's a better class of footie fan (you elitist wanker)

Distinguishing football firms from the rest of the fans is elitist?

 

[CyberRose]

You kidding? The Ed is never mistaken...

I also didn't see the thread in the UK Politics Forum where he brought this to our attention either:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...ndby-at-cardiff-swansea-match-91466-23314082/

 

[CyberRose]

Also didn't see any posts in this forum about a similar story from Preston vs Cardiff: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Policing-stepped-up-for-big.5183730.jp

Oh and look! The Police did it to my club now!: http://www.burnleyexpress.net/burnleynews/Extra-police-drafted-in-for.5178907.jp
(Altho i didn't hear of any trouble at that match so guess the police tactics of instigating trouble didn't work)

Here's the Sheffield Stir upto their old tricks again: http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/Police-swamp-Steel-City-derby.4602719.jp

Ooooh they love it!: http://www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/Fans-clash-at-Steel-City.3961009.jp

On no! Police criticised for not being heavy handed enough: http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/Fans-hit-out-at-police.3964751.jp

The point, and this is especially true for the Sheffield Star, is that these stories sell papers. When you're walking through Sheffield and you see on the news stand billboards "violence expected at football match" you buy the paper. These stories make a hell of a lot of money for local papers and I would put my neck out and say the police very rarely instigate the story and instead these "stories" are whipped up (to borrow the phrase) by the media, and not the police. That seems most definitely the case for this specific football match.

 

[mr steev]

Exactly. Same hyperbole, same tactics.

A similar thing happened here when Cardif came to play Wolves a few weeks ago.

Streets will be sealed off, car parks closed and pubs shut in Wolverhampton tomorrow due to the “high-risk” clash between Wolves and Cardiff City.

Pubs forced to close!

Hundreds of police officers will descend on the city centre to keep the peace between home fans and up to 1,400 away supporters

Implies that 1,400 away fans are up for a ruck

A grudge developed between the clubs after Cardiff supporters battled with riot police in the Steve Bull Stand in 2006.

Violence spilled on to the streets after the final whistle, with yobs hurling stones in the city centre and one police officer being knocked out

3 years ago!

http://www.expressandstar.com/2009/02/21/wolves-clash-to-shut-car-parks/

 

[Darios]

Pubs forced to close!

Happens a lot in Sheffield on football days, though afaik it's the pub landlords choosing to close.

 

[CyberRose]

Happens a lot in Sheffield on football days, though afaik it's the pub landlords choosing to close.

That's usually only on derby days tho, and it's usually the city centre pubs that close ("home" pubs near the grounds tend to stay open as there's less risk of opposing fans mingling)

 

[Corax]

Thanks for your reply CyberRose. You've got some fair points, and I'm in two minds.

Ps - I am a football fan, but most of the matches I've attended have been at Kingsmeadow, and violence ain't really as much an issue in the Rymans et al.

 

[Darios]

That's usually only on derby days tho, and it's usually the city centre pubs that close ("home" pubs near the grounds tend to stay open as there's less risk of opposing fans mingling)

I've seen it happen on other match days - The Howard, for example, has been closed a few times before when there's a major kick off team in town (e.g. Cardiff).

 

[CyberRose]

I've seen it happen on other match days - The Howard, for example, has been closed a few times before when there's a major kick off team in town (e.g. Cardiff).

Hmmm. Don't recall that one being shut (I arrive to Sheffield by train and walk past it to meet my dad). I know after the game it tends to be shut but it's usually open because all the away fans go there straight from the train so the police know where they all are and can walk them to the ground.

Obviously I don't doubt you, it just seems odd that's all

 

[Darios]

Hmmm. Don't recall that one being shut (I arrive to Sheffield by train and walk past it to meet my dad). I know after the game it tends to be shut but it's usually open because all the away fans go there straight from the train so the police know where they all are and can walk them to the ground.

Obviously I don't doubt you, it just seems odd that's all

Don't you remember it going through a period of being smashed up regularly by the away fans?

 

[CyberRose]

Don't you remember it going through a period of being smashed up regularly by the away fans?

Nope! (Tho that wouldn't surprise me!)

There's usually about 30 or so police outside it each match day now (and poss inside as well) so maybe that stops a lot of the trouble?

 

[Darios]

Nope! (Tho that wouldn't surprise me!)

There's usually about 30 or so police outside it each match day now (and poss inside as well) so maybe that stops a lot of the trouble?

Was probably about ten years ago now - I always remember it because it was around the time I started working on doors and one of my first jobs was at Seamus O'Donnell's on football days.

We'd regularly get advance notice of things kicking off and moving from one part of town to the other - the Howard were usually one of the first to get trashed, then on the phone to the landlord of O'Donnells as we'd be one of the next hit as they came up the hill.

 

[Maltin]

Really, I give up. If you don't think that there's been occasions at football matches and demos when the police were up for aggro and were happy to mix things up to ensure that's what happened, then you must be living in some sort of fluffy reality bubble.

Can you name such an instance in the UK? I can't think of an incident off the top of my head where the police have been blamed for starting a riot at a football match.

 

[DexterTCN]

..I can't think of an incident off the top of my head where the police have been blamed for starting a riot at a football match.

That's not what he said.

 

[Maltin]

That's not what he said.

OK, he didn't say a riot, he said that the police ensured that aggro happened. And I assume that by aggro, he means that violence ensued, rather than people were slightly peeved. But the question still stands, can he name such an incident that he is referring to.

 

[editor]

Can you name such an instance in the UK? I can't think of an incident off the top of my head where the police have been blamed for starting a riot at a football match.

I never claimed that police tried to start 'riots' so please don't try and put words in my mouth

I have however seen - first hand - many examples of heavy handed and aggressive policing which has needlessly raised the temperature amongst fans and sometimes ended up creating confrontation.

Search the football sites and through Google and you'll find countless examples that back up what I've been saying. Here's one from last year:

‘Heavy-handed police fuel football violence’

Angry scenes after Newcastle and Sunderland clashed in April. The chairman of a newly-formed group has blamed police for match violence

A NORTH East football fan group last night claimed that the policing of football matches was heavy-handed and made violence more likely.

The allegations were made following the formation of the North East Division of the Football Supporters’ Federation, which is designed to air the views of fans across the region.

Angry scenes erupted after Newcastle’s 2-0 win over fierce rivals Sunderland in April, with six people arrested after the violence.

But last night Thom Bradley, chairman of the newly-formed federation, said false perceptions of football fans often led to unfair treatment and fuelled anger inside and outside grounds.
http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-...police-fuel-football-violence-61634-21602089/

In a general press release, the Football Supporters’ Federation also reported they, "frequently hear from supporters complaining of heavy handed treatment from Police."
http://www.grimsby.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=901

 

[Maltin]

I never claimed that police tried to start 'riots' so please don't try and put words in my mouth

I have however seen - first hand - many examples of heavy handed and aggressive policing which has needlessly raised the temperature amongst fans and sometimes ended up creating confrontation.

Search the football sites and through Google and you'll find countless examples that back up what I've been saying. Here's one from last year:
In a general press release, the Football Supporters’ Federation also reported they, "frequently hear from supporters complaining of heavy handed treatment from Police."
http://www.grimsby.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=901

Thanks for providing some evidence but both articles just refer to police being heavy-handed and nothing to indicate instances of them ensuring that "aggro" happens i.e. causing it in the first place.

The most damning part of your quotes and links stated "The chairman of a newly-formed group has blamed police for match violence" which is actually the caption on the picture and does not appear to be backed up by the article. All the FSF spokesman largely seems to say is "Some of the actions taken by police can potentially make things worse".

I agree with him and with your current suggestion, but this doesn't support your earlier assertion that there have been occassions at football matches where "the police were up for aggro and were happy to mix things up to ensure that's what happened". I am not denying that it may have happened just that I am unaware of such claims, and no one has provided any evidence yet to suggest that it has.

All football violence that I am aware of has been started by so called football fans.

I would prefer there to be a large police presence at high profile football matches to avoid situations getting out of hand rather than waiting for violence to erupt and then having to wait for someone to call the police.

 

[editor]

Thanks for providing some evidence but both articles just refer to police being heavy-handed and nothing to indicate instances of them ensuring that "aggro" happens i.e. causing it in the first place.

From the article I've just quoted:
"A NORTH East football fan group last night claimed that the policing of football matches was heavy-handed and made violence more likely."

As well as my own personal experiences at football, this article by Dr Clifford Stott from the University of Liverpool and Dr John Drury from the University of Sussex completely backs up what I've been saying.

Q: It's been suggested that the police can trigger a public reaction by being heavy handed. We know that the police tend to be more heavy handed with some of the more aggressive supporters such as the English. Is this a chicken and egg problem?

A: That's very much the kind of process that we focus in on. We call it a self-fulfilling prophecy; it's the expectation that a large crowd of supporters is going to cause a problem and then what you do is throw resources at it because you feel you need to control it. The idea is very traditional that the crowd is very irrational and it needs to be controlled. Resources are thrown at it and the expectation of trouble means that the officers are stressed and wearing protective equipment. They're much more likely to lash out and then if a small incident occurs in that crowd, then what we see is what people call a heavy handed reaction, which is basically a large number of officers driving forcefully into the crowd. That crowd contains people that haven't done anything wrong and didn't intend to be involved in violence. They find themselves being physically assaulted and it makes them wonder why they are being treated in that way. This draws people in the crowd into violence when they had no intention prior to police intervention of engaging in violence.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/show/2006.07.30/

 

[editor]

Here's another study, drawing direct comparisons with football crowds and protests, noting how aggressive policing can bring about a violent response.

Actually psychologists who specialise in crowd behaviour and who have made a special study of football fans' behaviour, have arrived at an almost diametrically opposite conclusion. They believe that many caught up in riots have no previous history of violence, and instead are galvanised into action by a sense of solidarity which emerges suddenly and powerfully, as a direct result of the way the authorities confront crowds...

Dr Stott's ideas began to formulate after his study of the London poll tax riots in 1990, where it became clear that violence from a group of people who usually had not met much, or even at all before, emerges from the rapid but powerful development of a shared group identity. This identity is based on a strong sense of "them" and "us" which is often galvanised by certain police control techniques. Dr Stott argues that coercive policing - often termed 'high-profile' - actually works to create a sense of solidarity amongst a crowd of people, whose fear and anger in response, cements them into a cohesive collective which then produces the confidence to retaliate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...s-politics-and-the-need-to-belong-732333.html

 

[Maltin]

Interesting hypothesis. Still don't see any evidence to support your theory that the police act to ensure that "aggro" happens at certain football games. You just seem to be providing evidence that a large police presence may lead certain fans to become violent.

The police and football authorities obviously believe this, because there has been a reduction in the number of police that attend football matches and a move towards letting the stewards (who are seen to be less threatening) police the crowd.

However, for high profile matches, I think they would be remiss to adopt a low key approach in case the trouble that presumably they have seen at earlier games between those teams is repeated and they weren't there to protect people.

Rather than trying to find more evidence, why do you think the police would want there to be trouble at a football match?

 

[editor]

Rather than trying to find more evidence, why do you think the police would want there to be trouble at a football match?

Do you go to many football games?

 

[CyberRose]

Do you go to many football games?

One might ask the same question of you if you think a match where Cardiff could get knocked out of the playoffs doesn't require a large policing operation

Have you noticed that apart from yourself, the only people who are agreeing with you are those with no football supporting experience? That the only people agreeing with you are people whose experience with the police is limited to protests? But then, that was your whole point of posting this thread in the UK forum and not the football forum, isn't it?

 

[Maltin]

Do you go to many football games?

From what I gather from your posts that I have read (not from this thread), I think it would be more than you.

ETA: And looking at the part of my post you quoted, but didn't answer, from all the football games that I have been to although I have seen trouble and heavy handed policing, I don't recall any games in the UK where the police have been the ones to start the trouble nor do I remember reading about such incidences nor has anyone (other than you) posted anything to suggest that.

 

[editor]

One might ask the same question of you if you think a match where Cardiff could get knocked out of the playoffs doesn't require a large policing operation

Total strawman.

Have you noticed that apart from yourself, the only people who are agreeing with you are those with no football supporting experience? That the only people agreeing with you are people whose experience with the police is limited to protests? But then, that was your whole point of posting this thread in the UK forum and not the football forum, isn't it?

I've no idea why you continue to ignore the articles and research I've posted up, but they completely back up what I've been saying all along.

Here's another study for you to ignore:

"When we analysed how the poll tax riot had developed, we couldn't explain the origins or escalation of the violence unless we took into account the actions of the police", recalls Clifford Stott. "Protestors engaged in a peaceful sit-in refused to move initially, and the police responded by charging into the crowd wielding their batons. Demonstrators were outraged by this and resisted, united in their opposition. Police tactics were part of the process through which collective violence emerged and this must be understood if we want to avoid this kind of situation."...

He then studied crowd dynamics, policing and hooliganism at Euro2004. With support from the UK's Economic & Social Research Council (ESRC), he was able to deploy a sizeable research team at several different venues. "This was an important study", he says. "It enabled me to gather qualitative data from fans and police at the same time - and systematically record structured quantitative data in the field."

His analysis provided strong confirmation of his theory that crowds respond most positively to police adopting a low profile approach. "This allows the police to interact with fans", he says, "and creates a sense of legitimacy which has the effect of marginalising confrontational elements in the crowd. The police are more able to gather information, communicate the limits of acceptable behaviour and accurately target hooligans should they need to make more forceful interventions. Football crowds tend to accept targetted interventions to remove fans behaving anti-socially - and will even help - provided the intervention is not indiscriminate and police de-escalate their engagement as soon as risk levels drop."

As a result of this research, European police forces now have a solid scientific basis for accepting that the nature of their own interactions with groups of football supporters exerts a strong influence on crowd behaviour and on the outcome of initial disturbances.

Old habits die hard, however: at FIFA's 2006 World Cup Clifford Stott observed quite diverse policing styles in the cities where England played. "Some were in line with my theoretical model, some were not. The differing levels of disorder which ensued were quite predictable: the police forces which adopted a low-profile policing style largely avoided trouble. Hopefully, the message will get through to all forces in the near future. My model offers a simple way to reduce conflict - in football, at least."

http://www.liv.ac.uk/researchintelligence/issue29/crowdbehaviour.html

Oh, and I believe the thread is in the correct forum, thanks, but I'll be happy to move it to the football forum.

 

[editor]

From what I gather from your posts that I have read (not from this thread), I think it would be more than you.

I can see that this is intended to be some sort of smartarse ad hominem but you're going to have to explain it to me.

ETA: And looking at the part of my post you quoted, but didn't answer, from all the football games that I have been to although I have seen trouble and heavy handed policing, I don't recall any games in the UK where the police have been the ones to start the trouble nor do I remember reading about such incidences nor has anyone (other than you) posted anything to suggest that.

Please read the studies I have bothered to post up which make a clear correlation between heavy handed policing and the reaction it may provoke from a crowd.

 

[CyberRose]

Total strawman.

Well do you think it needs a larger than normal police operation?

I've no idea why you continue to ignore the articles and research I've posted up, but they completely back up what I've been saying all along.

No, they don't back up what you've been saying. You've said the police deliberately provoke trouble at football matches. The articles you posted merely say that on occasion, large police presences and the tactics employed can have the effect of increasing the risk of trouble (of which nobody is in doubt that on occasion it does). But they say nothing about the intentions of the police in mounting such operations, let alone "completely back up" your belief that the police intend for there to be trouble...

(You've also managed to avoid, for four pages now, everything I and others have said about believing you to be wrong that the original article that you're crying over was instigated not by the police, but by the media trying to sell papers, but hey, it's not like you'd ever accuse somebody of ignoring points raised, would you?)

 

[Maltin]

I have read the articles in your links and I generally agree with what they say.

I just don't believe that they back your assertion that the police act to ensure that "aggro" happens at certain football games though.

With regards to the attendance at games, you appeared to suggest that I don't go to many games, and all my response stated was that (from the posts that you have made in the past) I believe that I go to football (professional games) more regularly than you. I will have been to 27 this season. And you?

 

[editor]

Well do you think it needs a larger than normal police operation?

That's what the police are saying, but strangely enough, the supporters organisation disagree strongly.

No, they don't back up what you've been saying. You've said the police deliberately provoke trouble at football matches. The articles you posted merely say that on occasion, large police presences and the tactics employed can have the effect of increasing the risk of trouble (of which nobody is in doubt that on occasion it does).

So if the police decide to mount an over-the-top operation, with disproportionate levels of cops the end result would be... ah yes, an increased likelihood of violence, just like G20.

You seem to think just because your individual experience of football doesn't match mine, then it can't exist and that I must be making it up.

I suggest you browse some fans forums and you'll find no shortage of fans complaining about aggressive policing that has often left to conflict. Or maybe read the studies I keep posting up which draw direct parallels between 'high profile' policing and crowd response.

(You've also managed to avoid, for four pages now, everything I and others have said about believing you to be wrong that the original article that you're crying over was instigated not by the police, but by the media trying to sell papers, but hey, it's not like you'd ever accuse somebody of ignoring points raised, would you?)

Erm hello? It's not the media putting the extra police on the streets or the helicopter in the air or banging on about the need for a "huge policing operation" that has to be prepared for all eventualities depending on how the results go" because "Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" and have donem, "many times."

These are all direct quotes from Asst Chief Cop Holt given to the media.

 

[editor]

I have read the articles in your links and I generally agree with what they say.

I just don't believe that they back your assertion that the police act to ensure that "aggro" happens at certain football games though.?

I've experienced it first hand at Cardiff more times than I can remember.

I've seen cops back police horses into queues outside Fulham, arresting anyone who objected loudly enough (I was dragged out by my hair after one cop knocked over my girlfriend when they grabbed someone next to us). I've seen riot cops push into passive crowds at Wycombe (of all places!) until they got a reaction. I've seen pumped up cops try to wind up fans at countless games. I even once had the privilege of having a cop either side of me as I walked out of Orient while they hurled personal abuse at me (at the time I'd been on TV a fair bit about the CJA and football and was pointed out when I walked in).

I'm not saying that a chief cop with a chalkboard sits and plans attacks on football fans, but there are some cops who are most certainly 'up for it' just like they were at G20.

Quite why you're having trouble believing this baffles me. After all, it's the same police doing the same thing.

 

[CyberRose]

That's what the police are saying, but strangely enough, the supporters organisation disagree strongly.

So in your opinion, it is very doubtful that there would be trouble on Sunday should Cardiff be dumped out of the playoffs?

So if the police decide to mount an over-the-top operation, with disproportionate levels of cops the end result would be... ah yes, an increased likelihood of violence, just like G20.

Could be. Nobody is doubting that could be the result, but when you consider the sheer amount of "high profile" football matches that are policed every season, you'd have to say that those instances would be in the minority

You seem to think just because your individual experience of football doesn't match mine, then it can't exist and that I must be making it up.

We both support football teams with a higher than average proportion of nutters who go to football matches looking for trouble. The police in Sheffield for certain matches do have a high profile and operate in large numbers, but trouble rarely happens and as I've said before, that would not have been influenced by the police operation (indeed the high profile policing presence is probably the reason why much trouble doesn't happen)

I can't comment on Cardiff matches cos I've never been (but obviously have heard about them). Perhaps you could tell me whether the police keep a low profile and whether or not this has helped ensure there's never been any trouble at Cardiff recently?

I suggest you browse some fans forums and you'll find no shortage of fans complaining about aggressive policing that has often left to conflict. Or maybe read the studies I keep posting up which draw direct parallels between 'high profile' policing and crowd response.

But nobody is doubting that! I know there have been heavy handed policing that fans have complained about (and I'll throw in the Bramall Lane stewards in there as well cos they're a right set of fucking bastards to the away fans that come to Bramall Lane), but you're saying the police deliberately cause trouble. I'd also say that if you compared every large police football operation, the ones where trouble has flared as a result of said operation would be in the minority

Erm hello? It's not the media putting the extra police on the streets or the helicopter in the air or banging on about the need for a "huge policing operation" that has to be prepared for all eventualities depending on how the results go" because "Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" and have donem, "many times."

These are all direct quotes from Asst Chief Cop Holt given to the media.

You asserted that the police instigated that article in order to ensure there will be trouble at Hillsborough. It's pretty obvious that the Sheffield Star instigated that article and asked the police for quotes/comments. They do it all the time (altho you wouldn't know that of course). It sells papers!

The police made no press release so if the Stir hadn't prompted them, that article would never have been written.

So you are completely wrong to accuse the police of "whipping up the media"