Police whip up the media G20-style for Cardiff football match

[OneStrike]

I do question the police motives for these alarming statements. I'm an ardent football fan, have been for many years. Quite frankly the 'firms' know when and where they want to clash and modern policing gives them the intelligience to know this as well (more often than not). Police would have been waiting, in large numbers, at every transport hub and likely flashpoint anyway. All that these sort of public announcements do is justify the hundreds of overtime shifts and attract local 'nutters' who are 'not in the scene' to come along for a bit of a row, like.


The police have by and large marginalised hooliganism and at any high profile game they have the numbers to deal with things.

 

[CyberRose]

So they made the statement at a press conference rather than in a written release.

What's your point?

A press conference?!

Why the hell would they have called a press conference?!

The point is that it's fairly obvious to anyone other than the most biassed left winger or Cardiff fan that the Sheffield Star were the ones that contacted the police asking for comments on the forthcoming match with Cardiff so they had a story to report on.

All the police said was that matches against Cardiff have in the past caused a lot of trouble. That doesn't say they're expecting a load of nutters from Cardiff turning up (altho it'd be a fair expectation for someone to make, other than, of course, said biassed left wingers and Cardiff fans)

As has been pointed out above, certain teams attract out from the woodwork a certain breed of "fan" so for all you know the police have intelligence that Wednesday fans are planning summat...

 

[CyberRose]

Indeed. The police made the statement. The media reported it.

Exactly like the thread title states.

Er no, that's not true is it?

The police said matches involving Cardiff in the past have caused trouble, the media said there was the expectation that a load of Cardiff nutters were coming up

And then YOU also gave your biassed interpretation of what the media had said by somehow trying to tell us this somehow links into the recent action by police against the G20 protestors

I'm not sure what's more laughable, you trying to make some kind of "logical" link between football hooligans and a protest, or your apparent assertion that Cardiff fans are the angels of the football league that require no police presence whatsoever...

 

[editor]

I'm not sure what's more laughable, you trying to make some kind of "logical" link between football hooligans and a protest, or your apparent assertion that Cardiff fans are the angels of the football league that require no police presence whatsoever...

You'll have to remind me where I made such a claim if you want any creditability at all.

As for the link between football fans and protest which you seem to think doesn't exist, I suggest you do some reading sharpish. There's been clear parallels between the policing of the two for years. Here's a good place to start: http://www.urban75.org/football/cja_act.html and http://www.urban75.org/football/after4.html

I know a little about this subject. You clearly know fuck all.

 

[Barking_Mad]

LOL Sheffield Wednesday fans wouldn't break wind. They all trot over from the Peak District in their 4x4's!

Some United fans - well different kettle of fish maybe...

 

[TAE]

It also happens to be the case that the guy who died at the G20 protest was not actually a protester but a Millwall supporter; though I doubt the police cared - he was simply in their way.

 

[Corax]

Not sure that helps...

 

[CyberRose]

You'll have to remind me where I made such a claim if you want any creditability at all.

As for the link between football fans and protest which you seem to think doesn't exist, I suggest you do some reading sharpish. There's been clear parallels between the policing of the two for years. Here's a good place to start: http://www.urban75.org/football/cja_act.html and http://www.urban75.org/football/after4.html

I know a little about this subject. You clearly know fuck all.

You've started a post claiming SY police are have "whipped up the media G20 style" for when Cardiff come to town by claiming that they have said they expect a load of Cardiff nutters to come up when in fact it was the Sheffield Star (ie the media) that you quoted who made those claims.

I asked you a simple question: How do you know the target of this operation isn't the Wednesday fans and instead of answering that you just told me to read your OP in which you (and the media) asserted that the police were expecting a load of Cardiff nutters to come up.

All the police said is: "Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems," he said. "They have done so many times."

That, I'm afraid, is a fact. And as likely as it is that it is a fact because Cardiff have a higher than average amount of nutters that follow their club, the police made no comment as to why Cardiff matches attract a problem, however, living in Leeds and reading the local papers (and talking to my Leeds mates) I can tell you that when Cardiff or Millwall are in town the shit hits the fan cos all the Leeds hooligans come crawling out of the woodwork for their day of glory. That is no different (altho to a lesser extent) for the two Sheffield clubs as Cardiff supporters apparently found out at the United match.

It's a sad state of affairs but surely you're not stupid, naive or that prejudiced enough to think that a football match between Wednesday and Cardiff on the last day of the season doesn't need a large police operation to make the event safe for the majority of fans who aren't inbred nutters?

 

[CyberRose]

LOL Sheffield Wednesday fans wouldn't break wind.

You've never been to Hillsborough wearing a United shirt when United have won 2 - 0! Luckily the worst that happened to me was just getting spat on by some huge fat sweaty "woman", others weren't as lucky as me!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The police in Sheffield do tend to go right in at the deep end but to be fair there's very very little trouble because of their tactics...

because of or inspite of...

my guess is the latter...

 

[CyberRose]

because of or inspite of...

my guess is the latter...

Yes well thank you for that wonderful insight, when was the last time you were at Bramall Lane or Hillsborough btw?

 

[Corax]

Cyberose - the police must have training in conflict de-escalation surely?

Their statements run contrary to de-escalation training, particularly the one you've bolded.

South Yorkshire Police says it will mount one of the biggest operations of the year for the game at Hillsborough on May 3.

Extra officers will be on duty, the force helicopter will be used to monitor the movement and behaviour of fans, there will
be 'spotters' in the crowd looking for known troublemakers, and CCTV cameras will be rolling to ward off potential trouble afterwards

"There will be a huge policing operation - we have to be prepared for all eventualities depending on how the results go," said ACC Holt

"We monitor intelligence, we're aware there's chat between the fans and we're very conscious with previous matches this season between the two clubs, there's been something like 35 arrests," said Supt Jones.

"We will have about 450 police officers on the street and that will include horses and dogs and the like, and spotters.

All this stuff is 'bigging' the operation up. It's the very opposite of low-key policing. Of course they have to have this stuff ready to go, but announcing it is provocative, counter-productive, and serves only to further an agenda aimed at securing police resources. It has a very strong parallel with the statements of being "up to it and up for it" made before the G20.

 

[CyberRose]

Fair enough but my whole point is that, until apparently provoked by the press (Sheffield Star I think altho you attribute the article to the BBC) the police seemed to have no intention whatsoever of making any kind of comment about this operation, so altho they might have chosen their words more wisely (altho you also to have been taken in by the media's interpretation rather than what the police actually said) I think it's wrong to say the police are "whipping" up the media, more like the media whipping up a story...

 

[Corax]

Fair enough but my whole point is that, until apparently provoked by the press (Sheffield Star I think altho you attribute the article to the BBC) the police seemed to have no intention whatsoever of making any kind of comment about this operation, so altho they might have chosen their words more wisely (altho you also to have been taken in by the media's interpretation rather than what the police actually said) I think it's wrong to say the police are "whipping" up the media, more like the media whipping up a story...

First 2 quotes from the star (hence ibid), third from the BBC.

The police aren't stupid (well, they are, but these guys have media training is what I mean), and they choose their words. They know full well what effect they'll have.

 

[CyberRose]

The police aren't stupid (well, they are, but these guys have media training is what I mean), and they choose their words. They know full well what effect they'll have.

And what effect would that be? (Bearing in mind that the media outlets you mentioned above carry identical stories every time United and Wednesday play each other, which this year both events passed relatively trouble free)

Also, do you not acknowledge what I said about these stories being instigated by the media, rather than the police?

 

[Corax]

And what effect would that be? (Bearing in mind that the media outlets you mentioned above carry identical stories every time United and Wednesday play each other, which this year both events passed relatively trouble free)

Also, do you not acknowledge what I said about these stories being instigated by the media, rather than the police?

Like I said, it's provocative and counter-productive.

And of course it's 'irresponsible' journalism - but the media's response in to be expected given their raison d'etre, and the police know that.

 

[CyberRose]

Well altho you didn't answer the question above, I assume you think that this "revelation" that SY police are mounting a large operation for the Cardiff match (shock horror) will have the effect of guaranteeing that there will be trouble, and with out the press comments, there would be none? Is that right?

I suppose if I were trying to find a possibility where that might be true I could argue that the news that Cardiff are bringing hooligans up could gear the Wednesdayites up for it?

But then the flipside to various comments on here is that the police want this to happen, just like the police "wanted" trouble at G20

First, there is no way the police "want" trouble at anywhere like a protest or a football match. The only positive for these events to the police is that it gives their officers the chance to earn overtime, otherwise, the police would much rather be out trying to sort out real crime (which is how they're judged and assessed).

Secondly, as I said above, there are much more stories about police operations for the Sheffield derbies and sometimes there's lots of trouble, sometimes (like this year) they're relatively quiet. But whether there will be trouble or not has nothing to do with what the police have said prior to the match, if it happens it happens cos the people involved want it to happen. However, I can tell you that altho both Sheffield clubs have a large proportion of idiots, the police have been extremely successful in stamping out hooliganism and making match days safe for the main part, so whatever they say in the papers is irrelevant to someone like me who in a few hours will be at a football match in Sheffield to see events in real life, not sat in London or wherever making assumptions about what goes on at football matches 100s of miles away cos I go every single week and can tell you how it is in reality...

I just think this thread is blowing hot and cold about nothing really. First, the "whipping up" has been done by the media, second, there will be a large police operation for a Cardiff match (esp as there has already been trouble involving them in Sheffield this season), that's just a given.

 

[editor]

First, there is no way the police "want" trouble at anywhere like a protest or a football match.

How incredibly naive.

 

[CyberRose]

How incredibly naive.

Ah once again editor chirps up to comment on an irrelevant subtopic of the thread whilst ignoring the main points raised by himself

No comment on the justification for the large police operation? No comment on the media being the ones to "whip" this up into a story rather than the police?

Oh well, I suppose I should humour you at least, shouldn't I? Go on then, why do the police want there to be trouble at a given football match?

(I'll have to read your reply later as I'm off to get the train from Leeds to Sheffield to go watch the match, hopefully I won't get beaten to a pulp by the police while I'm there!)

 

[editor]

Oh well, I suppose I should humour you at least, shouldn't I? Go on then, why do the police want there to be trouble at a given football match?

Really, I give up. If you don't think that there's been occasions at football matches and demos when the police were up for aggro and were happy to mix things up to ensure that's what happened, then you must be living in some sort of fluffy reality bubble.

 

[editor]

All this stuff is 'bigging' the operation up. It's the very opposite of low-key policing. Of course they have to have this stuff ready to go, but announcing it is provocative, counter-productive, and serves only to further an agenda aimed at securing police resources. It has a very strong parallel with the statements of being "up to it and up for it" made before the G20.

Exactly. Same hyperbole, same tactics.

 

[Corax]

Well altho you didn't answer the question above,

Well, I did.

And what effect would that be?

Like I said, it's provocative and counter-productive.

I'm sure you're smart enough; you don't need it spelt out for you more than that.
.

Also, do you not acknowledge what I said about these stories being instigated by the media, rather than the police?

of course it's 'irresponsible' journalism - but the media's response is to be expected given their raison d'etre, and the police know that.

.

I assume you think... with out the press comments, there would be none? Is that right?

Straw man. Stop it.
.

I suppose if I were trying to find a possibility where that might be true I could argue that the news that Cardiff are bringing hooligans up could gear the Wednesdayites up for it?

It flags up the potential for trouble to every knuckle-dragging fuckwit with an affiliation either way. Kind of like an advertisement.
.

But then the flipside to various comments on here is that the police want this to happen, just like the police "wanted" trouble at G20

First, there is no way the police "want" trouble at anywhere like a protest or a football match. The only positive for these events to the police is that it gives their officers the chance to earn overtime, otherwise, the police would much rather be out trying to sort out real crime (which is how they're judged and assessed).

This has already been answered as well, but you're not really reading are you?

to further an agenda aimed at securing police resources.

.

Secondly, as I said above, there are much more stories about police operations for the Sheffield derbies and sometimes there's lots of trouble, sometimes (like this year) they're relatively quiet. But whether there will be trouble or not has nothing to do with what the police have said prior to the match, if it happens it happens cos the people involved want it to happen. However, I can tell you that altho both Sheffield clubs have a large proportion of idiots, the police have been extremely successful in stamping out hooliganism and making match days safe for the main part,

You say the police statements make no difference. Any evidence for that, or are you just following a blind assumption? Anyway, the effectiveness is not the point, the intent is. Despite the police "Summer of Rage" campaign, the vast majority of protesters remained peaceful at G20. That's despite, not because of.
.

so whatever they say in the papers is irrelevant to someone like me who in a few hours will be at a football match in Sheffield to see events in real life, not sat in London or wherever making assumptions about what goes on at football matches 100s of miles away cos I go every single week and can tell you how it is in reality...

Don't be a condescending tit.
.

I just think this thread is blowing hot and cold about nothing really. First, the "whipping up" has been done by the media,

Again, already been addressed. You really aren't reading this are you? I guess that's why editor's not putting much effort into responding to your points, tbh.
.

second, there will be a large police operation for a Cardiff match (esp as there has already been trouble involving them in Sheffield this season), that's just a given.

And advertising the fact, including detailing the number and type of units, ensures that their operation, and thus resources, will be justified.

Which has also, yet again, already been pointed out.

It's no surprise that most of this post is quotes, as most of your points have been answered. You're just refusing to accept them because, frankly, you're clearly not cynical enough, too naive, about how our police service operates.


Tell me this: What is the purpose of detailing the number and nature of the units? Do you think the police believe it will scare 'troublemakers' away?


Hope you enjoyed the match and it all passed off peacefully anyway.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes well thank you for that wonderful insight, when was the last time you were at Bramall Lane or Hillsborough btw?

this would be relvant to police hard headed tactics not preventing violence but actually easserbating it how son?

what is this about then who's a better class of footie fan (you elitist wanker) or that overbearing police tarring everyone with the same brush is actually an act against public order.

before you get all airated next time look at the company and sentiment of those you defend.

 

[TAE]

I can see two different scenarios leading to the article editor quoted:

CyberRose seems to think something like the following happened (police are just answering reporters questions):

Reporter: Hi, are you expecting trouble at the match?
Police: Possibly, but we are prepared.
Reporter: How are you preparing?
Police: "There will be a huge policing operation - we have to be prepared for all eventualities depending on how the results go"
Reporter: Has there been trouble before?
Police: "Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" "They have done so many times."

Editor seems to think something like the following happened (police are proactively creating an expectation of trouble to justify their actions):

Reporter: Hi, any comment on the upcoming match ?
Police: "Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" "They have done so many times." "There will be a huge policing operation - we have to be prepared for all eventualities depending on how the results go"

I can imagine both scenarios.

 

[CyberRose]

Really, I give up. If you don't think that there's been occasions at football matches and demos when the police were up for aggro and were happy to mix things up to ensure that's what happened, then you must be living in some sort of fluffy reality bubble.

I asked you to tell me why (ie what benefits) the police want trouble at football matches...

 

[CyberRose]

It flags up the potential for trouble to every knuckle-dragging fuckwit with an affiliation either way. Kind of like an advertisement.

That is true and I've acknowledged that, but are you saying the police should lie to the press/public?

This has already been answered as well, but you're not really reading are you?

All this stuff is 'bigging' the operation up. It's the very opposite of low-key policing. Of course they have to have this stuff ready to go, but announcing it is provocative, counter-productive, and serves only to further an agenda aimed at securing police resources.

IIRC funding for football match policing operations is part paid by the football club and part paid by the police. Therefore the police get no extra resources to spend on "real" policing from policing football matches, in fact the opposite, they have to spend resources they would otherwise spend on "real" policing on policing football matches, hence the massive argument right now between police and football clubs over who should pay for the security. That also completely disproves that the comments in the press are intended to "secure" resources because large football operations are an even bigger drain on resources than normal matches

You say the police statements make no difference. Any evidence for that, or are you just following a blind assumption? Anyway, the effectiveness is not the point, the intent is. Despite the police "Summer of Rage" campaign, the vast majority of protesters remained peaceful at G20. That's despite, not because of.

To be fair, this thread is about a specific police operation at a football match involving a football club with some of the worst, if not the worst fans in the country. This thread is only "about" the G20 in so far as the editors' mind allows him to stretch reality to think that Cardiff fans are the same as peace protesters!

Have I got any evidence to counter your views on G20? No. Have I got any evidence to back up my comments for football matches? Yes, of course, and I've said them twice on this thread now, so next time you accuse me of "not reading" take a good long look at yourself, yea?

FYI: I said every single Sheffield derby there is an article in the Star about how big the policing operation will be (and for other high profile matches as well sometimes). Sometimes trouble happens, sometime trouble doesn't happen, it has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with any comments the police have made in the press. However, when trouble does happen, you're an idiot or a holligan if you aren't greatful for a large police presence (which I'm not sure you'd know because it doesn't appear that you're a fan of football, which is why this thread really should be in there, but I know exactly what editor was up to putting it in this thread in order to attract the comments of people who's only experience with the police is at protests, rather than at football matche - th naughty boy!)

Don't be a condescending tit.

Well I have a story to tell you about the football match yesterday because if the Cardiff fans behave like a large number of Swansea fans did yesterday then a large police operation is perfectly justified. Swansea are another team who have a larger than average share of hooligans and last-away-games of the season can be a fun day out, or they can be a shit load of trouble when concerning certain teams. After Super Welsh wiz kid David Cotterill scored our winning penalty the Swansea fans went apeshit surging towards the nearest stand (which happened to be the family stand ) and violence just exploded as the stewards tried to block them, eventually riot police being needed to form a barrier between them and opposing fans. The reacted that way because losing ended their chances of reaching the playoffs. Next week, if Cardiff lose, they could also be dumped out of the playoffs and as Cardiff fans have a much worse reputation than Swansea do, that match has the potential for a huge amount of violence should results go a certain way.

If you honestly are not a football fan then perhaps what I've written above is completely alien, but there is only one football fan in the world that could possibly argue there is no need for a large police operation for wednesday against Cardiff, and that is the football fan who started this thread...

I guess that's why editor's not putting much effort into responding to your points, tbh.

Really? I assumed it was because he realised he was wrong?

And advertising the fact, including detailing the number and type of units, ensures that their operation, and thus resources, will be justified.

Which has also, yet again, already been pointed out.

It's no surprise that most of this post is quotes, as most of your points have been answered. You're just refusing to accept them because, frankly, you're clearly not cynical enough, too naive, about how our police service operates.

As I said above, football matches ar a drain on police resources, not an earner as you seem to think...

Tell me this: What is the purpose of detailing the number and nature of the units? Do you think the police believe it will scare 'troublemakers' away?

Well to reassure the public would be the obvious answer, wouldn't it? I'm also not sure they have been as specific about the number and units they would use. I don't think they've mentioned numbers, and the units mentioned are on operation anyway, so it's hardly big news

Hope you enjoyed the match and it all passed off peacefully anyway.

Well, the Swansea fans tried their best to ensure it didn't pass peacefully, just hope the Cardiff fans are a little more well behaved when they get dumped out of the playoffs next week...

 

[CyberRose]

Editor seems to think something like the following happened (police are proactively creating an expectation of trouble to justify their actions):

Reporter: Hi, any comment on the upcoming match ?
Police: "Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" "They have done so many times." "There will be a huge policing operation - we have to be prepared for all eventualities depending on how the results go"

No editor seems to think it went like this:

Police: Hello Mr newspaper, we have some information about the huge operation we're running for the Cardiff match
Mr newspaper: Oh? Go on...
Police: well, Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" "They have done so many times."
Mr newspaper: We shall write the story straight away! The people of Sheffield must be warned of this impending invasion!
Police: (snicker snicker)

 

[CyberRose]

this would be relvant to police hard headed tactics not preventing violence but actually easserbating it how son?

what is this about then who's a better class of footie fan (you elitist wanker) or that overbearing police tarring everyone with the same brush is actually an act against public order.

before you get all airated next time look at the company and sentiment of those you defend.

I have no idea whatsoever what you just said above. I can pick out individual words, but when put together in the order you've put them above they don't seem to make any sense...

 

[TAE]

No editor seems to think it went like this:

Police: Hello Mr newspaper, we have some information about the huge operation we're running for the Cardiff match
Mr newspaper: Oh? Go on...
Police: well, Games involving Cardiff City always cause problems" "They have done so many times."
Mr newspaper: We shall write the story straight away! The people of Sheffield must be warned of this impending invasion!
Police: (snicker snicker)

I would not find that impossible to believe either, but that would have been done as a press release and (as you mentioned earlier) there does not seem to be one of those.

 

[Darios]

Really? I assumed it was because he realised he was wrong?

You kidding? The Ed is never mistaken...