Police Preparations For G20 Summit

[Azrael]

Yes, it IS for the greater good, IMHO. And what's with putting the word 'protesters' in inverted commas? Are you suggesting that the folk who are putting a great deal of time, effort and energy into organising around the summit are only there for a tear-up, because I can assure you that isn't the case.

Not at all: I put "protestors" in inverted commas to seperate those who are there for a tear up from those who want to protest peacefully.

Twats like derf and Azreal would have had a go at the people who tore down the berlin wall for commiting property damage.

Different rules apply to law-governed democracies and dictatorships. I've argued for a right of armed resistance to tyrannies on Urban before, so you'll have to find someone else to ticket the wall smashers.

 

[Bakunin]

More scaremongering in The Times can be found here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5927699.ece

This can be interpreted possibly in three different ways IMHO.

One is that the powers that be and the mainstream press are doing their usual smear job against activists of all stripes, and particular examples would be the Daily Heil and the Evening Substandard.

A second would be that, if they can ramp things up so people are expecting more trouble than there actually is, then they can point to the 'success' of the policing and use it as justification for SOCPA and other such repressive legislation.

The third would be that they're actually looking to make things kick off. Then the powers that be can ram through even more repressive legislation under the guise of preserving public order and the mainstream press can do their usual job of deliberately misrepresenting all activists as mindless thugs, hell-bent on a good tear up and nothing else, which would no doubt sell a few papers.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Different rules apply to law-governed democracies and dictatorships. I've argued for a right of armed resistance to tyrannies on Urban before, so you'll have to find someone else to ticket the wall smashers.

So governments can treat their citizens anyw ay they want as long as they have a fig leaf of democratic accountability?

BTW - the present government got in on less than 40% of the turnout - and on the votes of less than 30% of the electorate. The other parties offered different flavours of the same neo-liberal cake.

Between them our political class have trashed the economy for the enrichment of the super rich - and you say we don't have a right to take to the streets in anger to protest their crimes?
That we have to wait every five years for the opporutnity to vote for a different bunch of equally corrupt self-serving shisters?

REAL - democracy is where the people have genunine and significent power and influence over how society is run and directed. That is less the case in this country now than it has been for nearly a centurary.

A majority opposed the Iraq war. A majority opposed the privatisation of the railways and now the post office. A majority are enraged that the people who fleeceed the global economy are wlaking away with huge bonues rather than being sent to prison.

Are we supposed to meekly accept that the very same crooks and incompetants resonsible for global economic train wreck should carry on making the descions - and lining the their own pockets?

 

[TopCat]

Thank you.
But to call me a troll you would have to redefine the word to mean "someone who doesn't follow the pack like a thick cunt".

Drugs, political violence. Both stupid.

Get stoned and fight the police, sounds like a plan.

 

[Cobbles]

A majority opposed the Iraq war.

Evidence?

A majority opposed the privatisation of the railways and now the post office.

Evidence?

A majority are enraged that the people who fleeceed the global economy are wlaking away with huge bonues rather than being sent to prison.

Evidence?

Are we supposed to meekly accept that the very same crooks and incompetants resonsible for global economic train wreck should carry on making the descions - and lining the their own pockets?

We're free to vote-in whichever government we want at the next election.

If enough "Anarchists" can get together the measly deposit, stand for election and win enough seats to form the next government then they can make whatever reforms to the democratic process they wish. History shows us how Hitler managed this in Germany in the 30's so it shows that a radidly potty manifesto can garner enough support to overthrow a Government.

Unfortunately you'd need a lot of popular support to achieve that (e.g. more than just 4/5 folk rambling on drunkenly in the pub about smashing the machine and other anarcho-twaddle) so it ain't about to happen sometime between now and the next Ice Age.

 

[Bakunin]

Evidence?



Evidence?



Evidence?



We're free to vote-in whichever government we want at the next election.

If enough "Anarchists" can get together the measly deposit, stand for election and win enough seats to form the next government then they can make whatever reforms to the democratic process they wish. History shows us how Hitler managed this in Germany in the 30's so it shows that a radidly potty manifesto can garner enough support to overthrow a Government.

Unfortunately you'd need a lot of popular support to achieve that (e.g. more than just 4/5 folk rambling on drunkenly in the pub about smashing the machine and other anarcho-twaddle) so it ain't about to happen sometime between now and the next Ice Age.

Erm, do you have the slightest idea of what proper Anarchism is really about, or meant to be about?

If so, perhaps you'd be prepared to debate the many issues that concern Anarchists today and teach me, a comparative newbie in politics next to your good self, obviously, (I've only been an activist since I joined the Anti-Nazi League in the early 1990's, after all) out of your own extensive experience?

 

[Cobbles]

Erm, do you have the slightest idea of what proper Anarchism is really about, or meant to be about?

If so, perhaps you'd be prepared to debate the many issues that concern Anarchists today and teach me, a comparative newbie in politics next to your good self, obviously, (I've only been an activist since I joined the Anti-Nazi League in the early 1990's, after all) out of your own extensive experience?

just curious to see what evidence existed to support sweeping statements such as "A majority opposed the Iraq war."

A majority of what?

(a) Puppies?

(b) Manufacturers of placard handles?

puppies don't have the vote and I guess there's not a lot of placard handle manufacturers either.

 

[winjer]

Unfortunately the kind of nutters who eschew chucking bottles at the police as a form of political "action"

eschew
v.t. To flee from; to shun; to avoid.

Duh.

 

[Bakunin]

just curious to see what evidence existed to support sweeping statements such as "A majority opposed the Iraq war."

A majority of what?

(a) Puppies?

(b) Manufacturers of placard handles?

puppies don't have the vote and I guess there's not a lot of placard handle manufacturers either.

Did you not notice the 2 million who went through the streets of London? Did you not notice the myriad of other protests around the world? Did you not notice that the controversy over the decision to invade Iraq, illegally and on the basis of an extremely dodgy dossier filled with a mixture of incorrect intelligence information and outright lies? And have you paused to ask yourself why, if the decision to invade Iraq was so lawful, the Government is still refusing to release the minutes of the various Cabinet meetings concerning that decision?

Well?

 

[winjer]

It's only a couple of days, not the end of the world really. Why not plan a nice little holiday away for a few days, if you're in the affected area, then it won't affect you at all.

Perhaps because you might not have that option, living in the poorest part of one of London's poorest boroughs?
(Deprivation indicators of Canning Town South)

Why not stop being a sanctimonious dullard for a few days?

 

[Azrael]

Between them our political class have trashed the economy for the enrichment of the super rich - and you say we don't have a right to take to the streets in anger to protest their crimes?

No, as I made clear above, I don't think anyone has a right to cause criminal damage in the process. If you intend to make a peaceful protest then good luck to you.

 

[TomPaine]

Well I really do hope people who wouldn't normally protest, from all walks of life come out on that day and show Brown and gang what the think of them.

I've been reading the newspaper comments on sites and where you would normally expect to see a wall of "Scruffy dreadlock kids should get a job/education/have a bath" style remarks, you are seeing more stuff like (from the Times):

I see that the smoking ban has been lifted for the G20 politicians and hangers on The "guerilla style raids" will probably only be smokers looking to join them for a cigarette rather than standing outside. It's the usual "one law for us" attitude. Utterly repugnant but we've come to expect no better

I do wonder if the general fucked off attitude of people in Britain will translate into more people protesting who wouldn't normally like the Iraq war.

 

[Blagsta]

If enough "Anarchists" can get together the measly deposit, stand for election and win enough seats to form the next government then they can make whatever reforms to the democratic process they wish.

Doh!

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well I really do hope people who wouldn't normally protest, from all walks of life come out on that day and show Brown and gang what the think of them.

<snip>

I do wonder if the general fucked off attitude of people in Britain will translate into more people protesting who wouldn't normally like the Iraq war.

I think that would be a good thing. The potential is there, for example in the majority of ordinary people who support renationalising public utilities in the polling evidence I linked on the previous page.

I think it's very much in the interests of the neo-liberal status quo to frame G20 protests as a violent clash between cops and anarchists in order to try to get ordinary people to stay away. Might work this time, but I can see a point coming where it won't work any longer.

 

[TomPaine]

To be honest I think the papers hype some of that crap up so they can sell more. After all pictures of cars on fire and riots and stuff are going to sell more papers then pictures of the president of Mexico waving to people on a balcony.
It's in the interest of the papers for there to be trouble to flog more rags.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

To be honest I think the papers hype some of that crap up so they can sell more. After all pictures of cars on fire and riots and stuff are going to sell more papers then pictures of the president of Mexico waving to people on a balcony.
It's in the interest of the papers for there to be trouble to flog more rags.

Sure, but I'd argue there is a convergence of interests there.

It suits the papers, because riots sell better than peaceful protests. It suits the state because ordinary people are less likely to go if they think things are going to get ugly.

 

[Raw SslaC]

Sure, but I'd argue there is a convergence of interests there.

It suits the papers, because riots sell better than peaceful protests. It suits the state because ordinary people are less likely to go if they think things are going to get ugly.

Therefore the state are shitscared of peaceful demonstrations? Remember Feb 15th.

The state see militant demonstrations as a threat as they have the potential to involve many others.

 

[greenman]

Raw Sslac -
Which of these headlines would scare the state/establishment most?
1/ "Police Arrest violent demonstrators at smaller than expected march"
2/ "Biggest March since Anti-Iraq Protests Demands Leaders Act"
3/ "Mayhem in London, Police criticised for mounted charge on peaceful section of massive march, but blame provocation by minority"
4/ "Smaller than expected march passes off peacefully"

I would say the order they would favour would be 4, 1, 2, 3.
They would like it to be small and unnoticed, hence trying to put off ordinary folk attending.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What might scare them a bit more ...

5) Central London is now in flames and Lord Mandleson has been impaled on a scaffolding pole after the government once again ignored the politely expressed dissenting views of 35 million ordinary citizens and told the police to employ violence to scare off the 4 million or so who showed up for the demonstration against mortgaging our grandchildren to bail out a bunch of fucking useless parasite bankers while ordinary people are having their homes reposessed.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Thing is, first you need to get the 35 million ordinary citizens lined up in coherent opposition.

 

[free spirit]

What might scare them a bit more ...

5) Central London is now in flames and Lord Mandleson has been impaled on a scaffolding pole after the government once again ignored the politely expressed dissenting views of 35 million ordinary citizens and told the police to employ violence to scare off the 4 million or so who showed up for the demonstration against mortgaging our grandchildren to bail out a bunch of fucking useless parasite bankers while ordinary people are having their homes reposessed.

you missed your calling as a tabloid headline writer

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, I was being a bit satirical, but I had a serious point in there someplace.

If opinion polls are now showing a majority of the general public in favour of renationalising public utilities, then I think it's reasonable to infer that the potential is there for mass opposition to the neo-liberal status quo as a whole. The likely outcome of the G20 is that they'll try to resolve the banking crisis in favour of the same elites who got us into this mess in the first place, and to do so at the expense of the rest of us.

A few 'militants' are not going to bother them in the slightest, a bit of crowd control here, a bit of media demonisation there, problem solved. Peacefully but firmly expressed dissent on a massive scale is much more of a concern, because it can snowball into effective political activity, potentially (I know it didn't in relation to the Iraq invasion, but that doesn't mean it can't ever do so) and it's much harder to repress violently without risking scenario 5) above.

 

[newbie]

am I being particularly unobservant or what? we're a week away from this and I've yet to see any evidence of organising for a protest of 40,000 let alone 4,000,000. Big demonstrations don't happen without some sort of build-up evident to those us us who aren't part of the activist ghetto. Public meetings, flyposters, stickers all that stuff. All I've seen is a couple of threads on here, with links to slightly hysterical news items on page 7 of the Daily Hate, but those threads include predictions that the 28th will be bigger than the poll tax march or feb 15th or something! are trains and coaches being booked in towns and cities all over the country?

 

[greenman]

am I being particularly unobservant or what? we're a week away from this and I've yet to see any evidence of organising for a protest of 40,000 let alone 4,000,000. Big demonstrations don't happen without some sort of build-up evident to those us us who aren't part of the activist ghetto. Public meetings, flyposters, stickers all that stuff. All I've seen is a couple of threads on here, with links to slightly hysterical news items on page 7 of the Daily Hate, but those threads include predictions that the 28th will be bigger than the poll tax march or feb 15th or something! are trains and coaches being booked in towns and cities all over the country?

Don't know how big it will be, but there appear to be more coaches (mostly union organised) going from round here than for most demos since the Iraq one.

 

[newbie]

I'm pleased to hear that. The website seems to concentrate on twitter and facebook with a sidehelping of ukelele players.

 

[winjer]

Big demonstrations don't happen without some sort of build-up evident to those us us who aren't part of the activist ghetto. Public meetings, flyposters, stickers all that stuff.

When were the last significant public meetings on any issue? 2001?

 

[greenman]

Unions are publicising on their front page webpages - here is
Unison

The GMB

PCS

and the RMT

 

[newbie]

When were the last significant public meetings on any issue? 2001?

''significant' I don't know but there were loads in the runup to the invasion. The ones I went to were well attended... That was the last big protest, apart perhaps from the foxhunters, and they held meetings across the country, and put up posters and did graffitti and odd stunts to build for their protest.

I could speculate that there was a real appetite then, but now, well I dunno, maybe times have changed and all the old fashioned ways don't really matter any more and the modern way to educate agitate organise really is twitter.



It's good the unions are advertising the demo on their websites, and some of them are running coaches. It's good there's a group using facebook to mobilise. It's good Put People First have an easy way to link to del.icio.us.

 

[Bakunin]

Here's the latest from the Beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7955057.stm

And here's the latest line in bullshit from the Evening Substandard:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...+sand-pit+protests+to+block+summit/article.do

And the Daily Heil, as usual, rides the bullshit bandwagon with this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...0-extra-officers-drafted-tackle-violence.html

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I forgot about facebook and twitters being the medium without sounding hippy so what has happen to the old flash mob, they still seem to lerk around at train stations etc... they don't seem to get effective tools these days for demos but yet they seem to managed to get around. I'm surprise noone has bothered hooking existing ones up with them to these events.