You would have to manage lose all your bank cards. Handy a copper would turn up...
Police in Brighton checking residents IDs to make sure they are not terrorists
- Thread starter moon23
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You would have to manage lose all your bank cards. Handy a copper would turn up...
Your post is shot through with indications that you have a little knowledge ... and that can be a dangerous thing!
As you say, PACE governs certain things and puts limits on much that was previously ungoverned (e.g. by "Judges Rules" - common law case precedent which set some rules about how prisoners should be dealt with). But it has absolutely no impact whatsoever (other than as potentially persuasive background on how the law may address a particular issue if called upon to rule on it) on things it doesn't cover. PACE has absolutely no relevance I can see to the point being discussed.
Er ... that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If there is a statute covering the point then the Common Law is of no relevance - statute trumps common law. That is a well-established principle of the UK legal system.
Indeed they do. And if anyone chose to take issue with the police's proposed course of action then they could mount a challenge on that basis - either as a judicial review alleging that they are acting ultra vires (in excess of their powers) or directly under the Human Rights legislation.
But the very same law also allows interference with that right under various circumstances:
Article 8(2) ECHR said:
I, and the police, am not "assuming that [we] know what the courts decide" but we are making an informed judgment on the basis of precedent and the background to the relevant principles. On the basis of Article 8(2) and previous case decisions I am pretty sure the Courts would find what is proposed pretty proportionate and necessary (on several of the bases possible).
That is how the world works - people (police, lawyers, organisations, individuals) observe how the law is working and, taking advice if necessary, decide on how it applies to something they are planning to do. They then do it (intending to keep within the law usually) and if anyone takes issue with what they are doing they defend their approach in the Courts and see what the decision turns out to be.
Your apparent suggestion that no-one should do anything without checking with them what the Court's decision would be in advance betrays your lack of knowledge again. Firstly that would simply be impracticable - the queue would be round the block - and secondly there is no mechanism (and never has been) for the Courts deciding hypothetical cases (with the small (and irrelevant to this discussion) exception of references by the Attorney-General which provide a mechanism for the superior Courts to rule on important points of general law following a decision against the prosecution in a lower Court).
First, you are assuming there is some database behind the checking of ID. There is nothing to suggest that (and the reference to "open source" data suggests that police are simply cross-checking what is already there on electorol rolls, phone directories, land registry, etc. etc. rather than starting a whole new database of their own).
Secondly, you misquote the ECHR decision. They did NOT rule that collecting DNA and fingerprints of innocent people was unreasonable. They (to paraphrase) ruled that the current process (whereby the DNA and prints of suspects arrested by not charged or defendants charged but later acquitted) are all retained indefinitely. As a result, the government is now suggesting different periods for different categories of offence. (As a matter of fact, if you had actually read any of my previous posts on this subject, you would know that I think the decision of the ECHR decision was wrong and allows the police to keep way too many people's samples way too long.).
But this case is very different (it is being applied to all people in a location; there is no arrest (and hence no "reasonable grounds to suspect" as the starter for ten); there is no special database proposed; there is no indication of compulsion ...) and on the basis of the legal doctrine of distinguishing cases, would be decided on it's own facts, with little, if any, of the decision in the previous case being directly applied.
Now that is very a common problem with critics of policing - substitution of "I" for "Everyone". Just because you can't see it, or don't agree with it doesn't mean that it is not there and an open-minded and unbiased tribunal would not agree with the police's approach.
I have carefully not said that the Courts would agree that it was a proportionate, lawful and necessary response to a situation ... but that my view is that they would.
thats my sitiuation at the mo, but I'm 4 miles or so from the centre. I lost my driving license and cash cards the other week, and all I can say thank heavens I'd gone and got my passport from my parents' a few days before, otherwise I'd have been royally fucked for a week
Since you haven't given us a link we can't really dwell much on it. That and random postings to message boards aren't that useful anyhow.
Yea, appreciate that which is why I said it was mention on a board.
Here is the link:
http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=28389
Still not everything the police to gets reported, so make your own minds up if you belive it.
No. They're saying "One way that an attack may be launched may involve the use of premises adjacent to / nearby / overlooking the venue" so it makes sense to have a bit of a check around to see if anything looks out of place.".
Yes, but for them to move into the area at the same time the Police are requesting ID, I would imagine their (cash-in-hand) job would be "rocking horse shit collector"
Cue the increasingly contrived reasons for not having Id...
No. But what do you suggest that would offend your privacy campaigner principles? Everything else I could think of would be at least as likely to piss you off as this.
(And it was meant ironically / sarcastically anyway - you're not American by any chance are you?)
I have pointed out that I disagree on how you characterise the content.
And you have a far more positive (some may say unrealistic) view of the media if you think that any of them can be relied upon to communicate the full message to all the people in a vicinity.
Yes, but for them to move into the area at the same time the Police are requesting ID, I would imagine their (cash-in-hand) job would be "rocking horse shit collector"
Cue the increasingly contrived reasons for not having Id...
I'm sure I could manage to move in mid august, not have utility bills yet and manage to leave my passport and wallet at my old house if I put my mind to it
No. It doesn't. It's just that you don't realise what IS "legislated for" (albeit that is something of a misnomer for what the common law allows).
If you really want to argue this point you should be arguing for a change in the law to make it plain that the police are only allowed to do some list of things and cannot do anything not on that list under any circumstances. That way you would get your clarity ... but you would also get a whole disfunctional police service.
And? Presumably you'd have something to illustrate your account and (contrary to popular belief) the police are capable of considering things that don't fit neatly in little boxes and realise that sometimes people have just moved in ...
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
This level of intrusion wasn't in force at recent conferences. Has the terror threat gone up? why haven't we been told if so?
Or is this just disgusting state paranoia and the ongoing march of the goonsquad state? I know where my money is.
Brighton residents would ideally be in solidarity, refusing to comply with this vile menace. What are the filth going to do? thrown thousands in jail? The scum should be sued into a blackhole if they go anywhere near that.
Sadly, I firmly believe they are ratcheting it up because we put up with endless crap like this, doing little more than whinge about it. The frog is being slowly boiled in the pan.
Or is this just disgusting state paranoia and the ongoing march of the goonsquad state? I know where my money is.
Brighton residents would ideally be in solidarity, refusing to comply with this vile menace. What are the filth going to do? thrown thousands in jail? The scum should be sued into a blackhole if they go anywhere near that.
Sadly, I firmly believe they are ratcheting it up because we put up with endless crap like this, doing little more than whinge about it. The frog is being slowly boiled in the pan.
You've invented that bit. All it means is that some other means of verifying you're not planning a mortar launch pad may be needed - documents from a previous address, checking with the landlord or whatever.
No-one is going to be arrested / targeted simply because they don't have documentation with their details on it available - it's just that that will be very quick way of checking out the vast majority.
Please tell me they're not really a proper journalist ... no wonder the Fifth Estate's fucked ...
Chief reporter according to the byline
(but the typo may well be from subs or newsdesk)And? Presumably you'd have something to illustrate your account and (contrary to popular belief) the police are capable of considering things that don't fit neatly in little boxes and realise that sometimes people have just moved in ...
thats fair enough, but I'd still be a bit panicked either way, although hopefully not the same sort of panicked that makes you look like a crap terrorist
Without the facts of what was said, to whom, when and about what it would be wrong to conclude whether that was right or wrong. But there have been instances connected with demonstrations where the police have acted improperly. I presume that individual is pursuing a complaint / suing the police for what they have done if it is as portrayed and not just whinging about it on a bulletin board ...
So you'll have some sort of loss report number? Or the bank will be able to confirm? Or the police will be able to check the DVLA records themselves? ...
I've never seen anywhere like this where people wind themselves up into such a fucking state over absolute trivia ...
Yes that my point you said:
Assuming I do think Police can only act under statute (which I don't BTW) there are still instances when they can preempt crime occurring under legislations. So why in 'my world' would they not be able to do this. It’s a fallacious argument as the conclusion doesn’t follow from the straw man premise you have ascribed to me.
Indeed if they had vast amounts of wealth and time they could, otherwise they will be resigned to 'moaning' on forum boards
I appreciate this, but think that in this instance it's not a proporational violation of the right in the interests of national security. Just as DNA collection 'could' be in the interests of national security the court ruled it wasn't a proporational violation. Obviously we are moving into speculation about legal outcomes now.
Court action is only one way in which the police respond to things they are doing wrong, more often it's a political infulence applied by citizens via democraticaly elected representatives.
That's not what i'm suggesting, police in charge of this operation should in my view have a better judgement.
Where do I mention Databases? I simply say they they are collecting IDs. If they are then cross-checking it then it's a form of mass survillance.
I was being sloppy in my parapharsing, and using 'collecting' to apply to the entire indefinite storing process for people's aquitted. My bad. The point I was trying to make is that that such intrustions into people's privacy are not always justified in terms of security or national interest. That is a principle that exist to some extent within our legal structure.
I am aware of similar checks made around the venues of various conferences and other events for years (I've done some of them myself) ....
Maybe all that has changed is that Sussex Police are being transparent about what they are doing ... I thought you lot (except moon23 who characterises any communication from the police as bad propoganda, obviously) liked transparency ...
So you'll have some sort of loss report number? Or the bank will be able to confirm? Or the police will be able to check the DVLA records themselves? ...
I've never seen anywhere like this where people wind themselves up into such a fucking state over absolute trivia ...
What if you work cash in hand and don't have a bank account though?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
What makes you think they're going to be doing anything without consent? Or that they're going to be requiring entry to people's homes without being invited?
There is absolutely nothing to stop them calling door to door and speaking to residents and businesses and asking if people can confirm their details. I guess the vast majority will be quite happy to do so. But there's no power to insist on anything if people simply refuse to cooperate.
Hardly "propoganda" is it ...
They are blatantly trying to exceed their authority and like detective twat should be told to go and fuck off.
Where's my head banging smiley when I need it ...Chief reporter according to the byline
Cool. Must be that part of thread... Friday bundle...?
Don't mind:
Concrete barricade to stop car bombs, armed police, detector arches on way in and secure zone around the actual building. Even stop and search around the streets nearby is reasonable.
I also don't mind intelligence lead specific operations against suspects.
What I find so objectionable is the blanket approach to the surveillance, and the fact that it infringes on people who are doing nothing but staying at home within their own property.
And have been made redundant from the Rocking-horse Farm so no-one can vouch for you...? Perhaps you've also had your parents hit by a meteorite so they can't be contacted...? etc, etc...
Yes, but for them to move into the area at the same time the Police are requesting ID, I would imagine their (cash-in-hand) job would be "rocking horse shit collector"
Cue the increasingly contrived reasons for not having Id...
It's the principle of not having to have ID if you so choose that is at stake.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I really don't think they checked addresses. They are just trying it on. Probably tied in somewhere with Continuity of Government and stuff for if the balloon goes up.
Crispy
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