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Police faked tube shooting log ???

Yossarian said:
So since bad things happen in Brazil, you reckon we should just sit back and not have a problem with lying, murdering cunts in our police force because worse things happen abroad?

Jesus fucked. Read the fucking words and don't add bits yourself to have a go at me for.

Did I say that ?
No, you made it up. How do you know they are lying, murdering cunts in our police force ?

The report is not public so unless you were on the tube that day go fuck off and stick your head in a vat of bees.

Count your blessings mate. There are many countries that would see you shot for saying what you just did. There may well be some officers in our police force that are not as they should be but at least we have a force that is, for the most part, unarmed and controlled. That's better than Brazil and a lot of others.
 
Epicurus said:
But there can be no circumstances where a suspect under the full control of a police officer should be shot; is that correct?

If an armed officer shoots someone without a direct order from a senior officer they must act under the “guidelines” set out for the use of that fire arm, is that correct?
ANY use of force, by ANY person (police officer or otherwise) MUST be justified in law. IT can only be where there is an honest belief (which may turn out to be mistaken, but which must be honestly held at the time) that the use of force is "reasonable and necessary" in self-defence (or defence of another); prevention of crime or making of an arrest. It must be the minimum reuqired to achieve the lawful purpose.

If a suspect is under "full control" then use of any additional force could not be justified (e.g. cases where officers have beeen convicted of assault for, e.g., kicking a restrained prisoner who had earlier been fighting with them). The difficulty is with a suspected suicide bomber the slightest unknown (a hand which cannot be seen, or which is clenched) could still pose an immediate serious threat as it may contain a trigger mechanism.

Your second question implies that if a senior officer orders someone to shoot then they have a defence. That is mistaken. No police officer can be ordered to use force by any other officer, no matter how senior. It is a personal decision and it must be justified personally. "I was only following orders" is not a defence or an explanation. It is also why no senior officer will be directly charged with the use of force - it is not for them to justify (though they may have to answer lesser questions about briefing, training, policy etc.).

The guidelines on the use of firearms are simply that - guidelines, not law. Any deviation from guidelines would not be unlawful in itself but it may make the use of force more difficult to justify as being the minimum, reasonable, necessary amount needed.

As the lawfulness of the use of force will depend entirely on what was the honestly-held belief of the officers at the time there is no way any of us can judge whether or not it was justified yet. The IPCC will have interviewed them with that in mind. Although the circumstances will add something to the issue the vast majority will come from their accounts given in interview. The CPS will now be making a judgement on the basis of the evidence and their accounts. If they believe it is clear-cut that they have a valid defence then they will NOT recommend charges. If they have any doubt, they will. In that case a Court will hear all the evidence, will listen to the accounts given by the officers and will make a judgement on what they conclude WAS the honestly-held belief of the officers at the time.
 
detective-boy said:
ANY use of force, by ANY person (police officer or otherwise) MUST be justified in law. IT can only be where there is an honest belief (which may turn out to be mistaken, but which must be honestly held at the time) that the use of force is "reasonable and necessary" in self-defence (or defence of another); prevention of crime or making of an arrest. It must be the minimum required to achieve the lawful purpose.
In theory this is true, but in practice, judicial history is not long on examples of police officers being found guilty of exceeding their powers in such matters.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
In theory this is true, but in practice, judicial history is not long on examples of police officers being found guilty of exceeding their powers in such matters.
Maybe that is because the criminal justice system is (quite deliberately) biased in favour of the defendant ("Better ten guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted"; "Beyond reasonable doubt"). When police officers are the defendant then they are entitled to exactly the same bias that any other defendant gets.
 
They are. What I am of course suggesting is that they may receive a bias slightly in excess of that accorded to other defendants. Even if they actually make it as far as the dock.
 
big footed fred said:
Count your blessings mate. There are many countries that would see you shot for saying what you just did. There may well be some officers in our police force that are not as they should be but at least we have a force that is, for the most part, unarmed and controlled. That's better than Brazil and a lot of others.

You're repeating yourself, you daft Tory cunt.
 
Yossarian said:
You're repeating yourself, you daft Tory cunt.

one better than a fucking idiot commie twat with no fucking idea how lucky he is to live in a safe country.
Fuck off to some of the nice commie places like north korea and say nasty things about the government and police. Interesting to see how long you live.
 
detective-boy said:
I should point out that Special Branch in the RUC were a very, very different beast to the Special Branch in the Metropolitan Police. I have never heard or seen of anything like the well documented shenanigans of the RUC Special Branch in the Met.

Yes, I believe you (not). Especially in the Copeland case, also involving SB that your evasivions have nevever dealt with properly.

I am surprised that nobody has yet commented that according to your post 5 above it is routine practice to retrospectively concoct/alter the log.

You may fool some on here, 'detective boy' but I find you as convincing as an ice-cream salesman in hell.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
So, things are worse in North Korea. And your point?


The point was that Brazil's government is in no position to complain about the UK's human rights record. Sad to say Yossarian seems to think that I am saying that means the UK police should be allowed to get away with anything they like.
He just made that bit up, it's just clouding the water with bullshit.
The noth Korea bit was just a suggestion for Yossarian to see what a commie government would do to people who try free speach.
 
big footed fred said:
The point was that Brazil's government is in no position to complain about the UK's human rights record.
Would it be all right if the occasional Brazillian citizen had a word or two on the subject? And are you suggesting that Mr Yossarian is in some way a follower of Mr Kim Il-Sung?
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Would it be all right if the occasional Brazillian citizen had a word or two on the subject? And are you suggesting that Mr Yossarian is in some way a follower of Mr Kim Il-Sung?

Just saying that the government is in no position to complain considering what they are doing at home.
I see no reason that brazillian people can't add their bit.

As for Yossarian, he is just adding his own words to mine but if he would like to visit NK I would love him to test what happens when he has a pop at them over their human rights record.
I'm sure he will get some handy first hand imformation about torture.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Mmm. The second bit in particular seems entirely irrelevant.

It is. The problem was that Yossarian made up an argument based on a lie. (wonder if he has any family in Downing street). As I said, clouds the water.
 
Surely...

using BFFs 'logic' he can't say anything about murders anywhere, because the British Govt has murdered people abroad--Iraq etc.? End of story.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
No, what clouds the water is crying "commie" and "it's worse in Brazil" as a means of avoiding the grim and unpleasant facts.


What are the grim and unpleasant facts ?

It is true that a man died but we have no facts in the public domain.
Unless you were there you can say nothing of value.

Are you going to say the UK police are racist killers or some other such bollocks ?

IF the man ran onto the tube AND was in a position to hide a bomb AND police acted on the best information they had then, they were correct to shoot.
If not, they were wrong.

When we have the facts we can decide, Until then you can just guess or make it up to suit our own politics.

Were you there on that day ?
 
big footed fred said:
What are the grim and unpleasant facts ?

It is true that a man died but we have no facts in the public domain.
Unless you were there you can say nothing of value.

Are you going to say the UK police are racist killers or some other such bollocks ?

IF the man ran onto the tube AND was in a position to hide a bomb AND police acted on the best information they had then, they were correct to shoot.
If not, they were wrong.

When we have the facts we can decide, Until then you can just guess or make it up to suit our own politics.

Were you there on that day ?


jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesus

read the threads on here about it you utter dimwit :mad:
 
Mmm, bit of a rant there. I don't suppose you were there? If not, then by your own argument you can say nothing of value.

Or, more sanely, we can say intelligent things based on the best evidence in front of us, which may well be that the police appear not only to have acted in an incompetent manner but to have attempted to obscure this in a number of ways. This cannot entirely be avoided by reference to either Rio de Janeiro or Pyongyang.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Mmm, bit of a rant there. I don't suppose you were there? If not, then by your own argument you can say nothing of value.
.


I was not there so I am unable to make judgement on the police and their actions.
The same goes for all others who did not see what happened. The thing that separates us is that some seem to want the police to be guilty.

All I ask is that we wait to get the facts before we convict those who's prime job is to protect us.

You must also remember that these actions were taken in the light of four bombs and many murders fresh in the minds of all of us including the coppers who were on that case.

Back to the question you avoided as well as old Tony, What are the grim and unpleasant facts ?

Do you have vital info that we need to know ?
 
and this one fred, should be right up your street
here
cotch & thread starter said:
Stockwell shooting - for all those who said the police are racist

_41336581_victim203.jpg

Just released by the BBC. The poor guy looks NOTHING like the 'asian' profile that people on the Stockwell thread accused the police of harrassing and being trigger happy towards. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Poor guy.

:-(
 
big footed fred said:
I was not there so I am unable to make judgement on the police and their actions.
It doesn't follow. When a jury is convened, is it comprised of people who were there?
big footed fred said:
What are the grim and unpleasant facts?
Chap dead, that sort of thing. Story subsequently told by the police turns out to bde horseshit. After that, we learn failure of surveiilance at Tulse Hill (copper going for piss) and at Brixton (man suspiciously changes buses...er, because Tube closed) and so on. Oh, recent Special Branch revelations.

And so on and so on.
 
ddraig said:
bff i just saved you the search

one of the main threads

Stockwell man innocent
This is not a wind up.

here
happy learning

The idea that he was not a bomber seems to be without question. The other questions relate to the place he was living, if he ran and what was he wearing and/or carrying.

There is seculation on both sides but these are not facts.
I can't defend the police but at the same time I can't attack them until I have the information to form an opinion.
If you have that info I would like to see it so I can decide for myself.

I don't mean think, suspect or my sister's dog's grooming parlour owner's brother. I mean first hand facts.

Anyone got any ?
 
Donna Ferentes said:
It doesn't follow. When a jury is convened, is it comprised of people who were there?Chap dead, that sort of thing. Story subsequently told by the police turns out to bde horseshit. After that, we learn failure of surveiilance at Tulse Hill (copper going for piss) and at Brixton (man suspiciously changes buses...er, because Tube closed) and so on. Oh, recent Special Branch revelations.

And so on and so on.

Jesus. A jury decides based on what a witness says about what they saw.
As for the rest I understand there are problems but still have little fact.
Dead chap, yes but what is "And so on". Nothing there to say anything that stands up.

Facts please. That or wait to make a decision as I will.
 
big footed fred said:
Jesus. A jury decides based on what a witness says about what they saw.
As for the rest I understand there are problems but still have little fact.
Dead chap, yes but what is "And so on". Nothing there to say anything that stands up.

Facts please. That or wait to make a decision as I will.

he wasn't running?

he didn't have a big jacket?
you must have heard those lies dispelled surely?, even in the papers you probably read
 
ddraig said:
he wasn't running?

he didn't have a big jacket?
you must have heard those lies dispelled surely?, even in the papers you probably read


I have read lots about this and there are many questions to answer. Most of those who offer comment have political motives of one sort or another and so they taint their own versions of events. This is both the pro and anti lobbies.

I agree that there are questions as to what happened, and quite right too, but I still see few hard facts and lots of ideas designed to suit various interest groups on both sides of the fence.

My only point here is that you are unable to say that anyone is guilty of anything until the full facts are in the open.

Just as a final note, I stopped reading papers after I read an account of events at something I saw myself. The paper's story had none of the vital facts correct. They just made it up to suit themselves.
 
Mmm. But if there are things on which all parties are now agreed (like he wasn't running, wasn't wearing a jacket, didn't jump the barrier etc) then I think we are intellectually justified in accepting them as facts.

Whether we are intellectually justified in invoking North Korea is another matter entirely.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Mmm. But if there are things on which all parties are now agreed (like he wasn't running, wasn't wearing a jacket, didn't jump the barrier etc) then I think we are intellectually justified in accepting them as facts.

Whether we are intellectually justified in invoking North Korea is another matter entirely.


The north korea thing was directed at one poster too stupid to come up with an argument without an open lie. You returning to it shows a weakness in your own points.

I have read a pile of ideas from all sorts of people. Most have few facts to work on so they argue their politically motivated ideas on what they consider to be true regardless on what in fact happened that day.

I am happy to say that there are many questions to answer but I refuse to support or condemn the police until I have the truth.

Are you saying that the police killed the guy knowing that he was nothing to do with the bombing.
If so, what are the facts you base this on and what are the reasons they did it ?
 
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