Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
I was suggesting that YOUR fear of gang violence (or your citing of it as a problem) is led by the media. How much gang violence have you experienced recently?
Police everywhere, justice nowhere - Public meeting in Brixton Tue 24th Nov
- Thread starter getonit
- Start date
Personally ive known 3 people who have been murdered and one who is serving 12 years for murder. What about you?
Fucking hell I'm not often shocked on the Brixton boards,but that's mad.I've known quiet alot of the bad boyz(sic)for a long time and only directly know of 1 death.and that fucked me up for a while,3 wow.
articletwo
Libertarian
I have no idea about the specifics of any particular police action. But the Ministry of Justice (http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/raceandcjs.htm) figures show that blacks commit about 15% of the murders in England (table 3.5) but only represent about 3% of the population. The report also shows that blacks are disproportionately likely to be murdered. Note this is the same report that shows that blacks are stopped and searched more on a per capita basis than the population as a whole - so it cannot be dismissed as some right-wing fantasy.
This therefore creates a dilemma - what is the perfectly liberal response? Stop and search blacks in an attempt to prevent murders, disproportionately to their numbers in the population as a whole (and get criticised in the Guardian and U75) - but in doing so potentially save black lives; or treat everyone the same with regard to stop and search and accept that there will be more black-on-black murders?
I don't claim to know, but those who shout loudest about racism and bias in the police/criminal justice system need to explain how they would save black lives.
This therefore creates a dilemma - what is the perfectly liberal response? Stop and search blacks in an attempt to prevent murders, disproportionately to their numbers in the population as a whole (and get criticised in the Guardian and U75) - but in doing so potentially save black lives; or treat everyone the same with regard to stop and search and accept that there will be more black-on-black murders?
I don't claim to know, but those who shout loudest about racism and bias in the police/criminal justice system need to explain how they would save black lives.
Spot on i think.
The police are definetely not above criticism. But a lot of the criticism is very shallow and made by people who have very little experience of what there talking about.
The steven lawrence inquiry talked about institutionalised racism.....Which i thought was a bit of a cop out..Because there is institutionalised indifference on young poor people full stop and not just in the police force.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Think again mate!
That's what I would have thought - but back in 1994 I was stopped in Brixton Station Road at about 1.00 am because a pair of coppers cruising round in their car thought I was gay and cruising for sex.
I was handcuffed and bundled into the back of the car and on arrival I was strip searched in one of the cells at Brixton Police Station, with the door open incidentally. This was ostensibly to check if I had drugs on me (not likely in my view for a 40 year old white man in that particular spot).
Whilst I was being searched there was a constant stream of young - an I mean YOUNG i.e. 14-16 year old black boys being take in for the same sort of treatment.
I snapped when the police officer asked me to bend over and part my cheeks - I accused him of being a pervert, at which time he simply threw my clothes at me and told me to get dressed.
I was shown out the back way from the Police Station, and I was refused the appropriate documentation about the incident on the way out. I was told to got to the front desk and ask. Having queued at the front desk for half an hour I was again refused the documentation and told to write in and request it.
I tried to make an official complaint in due course, but it was made clear to me that the only sensible thing was to allow the officer to be "advised" by his senior, otherwise there was a danger of adverse publicity for me.
Now I found that whole incident humiliating, it made me angry about the abuse of power of the police officer concerned, and from my enquiries it seems that I was not the only gay person to have suffered problems from that Policeman.
Of course all this is no doubt available to prospective employers now in an "Enhanced" police check - should I wish to work in a job requiring such a check.
If you consider what it must be like for black teenagers, some of whom regularly get picked up for being ragamuffin types, and all their mates that it happens to, it is not surprising that many young black people have an attitude problem with the police.
That's what I would have thought - but back in 1994 I was stopped in Brixton Station Road at about 1.00 am because a pair of coppers cruising round in their car thought I was gay and cruising for sex.
I was handcuffed and bundled into the back of the car and on arrival I was strip searched in one of the cells at Brixton Police Station, with the door open incidentally. This was ostensibly to check if I had drugs on me (not likely in my view for a 40 year old white man in that particular spot).
Whilst I was being searched there was a constant stream of young - an I mean YOUNG i.e. 14-16 year old black boys being take in for the same sort of treatment.
I snapped when the police officer asked me to bend over and part my cheeks - I accused him of being a pervert, at which time he simply threw my clothes at me and told me to get dressed.
I was shown out the back way from the Police Station, and I was refused the appropriate documentation about the incident on the way out. I was told to got to the front desk and ask. Having queued at the front desk for half an hour I was again refused the documentation and told to write in and request it.
I tried to make an official complaint in due course, but it was made clear to me that the only sensible thing was to allow the officer to be "advised" by his senior, otherwise there was a danger of adverse publicity for me.
Now I found that whole incident humiliating, it made me angry about the abuse of power of the police officer concerned, and from my enquiries it seems that I was not the only gay person to have suffered problems from that Policeman.
Of course all this is no doubt available to prospective employers now in an "Enhanced" police check - should I wish to work in a job requiring such a check.
If you consider what it must be like for black teenagers, some of whom regularly get picked up for being ragamuffin types, and all their mates that it happens to, it is not surprising that many young black people have an attitude problem with the police.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that post CH1 (and hello 
).
I think it's fair to say that whilst much better these days, there's still harassment towards gay guys who some police make an automatic judgement that they might be 'up to no good' - my mate's been 'stopped and searched' in the last few years for merely taking a walk through Clapham Common in the late evening and then asked all manner of questions relating to his sexuality. I don't care if the area has a 'history' or not for cruising, it's still way out of order by the police.
I've got two friends in South London (who fit the police's preferred 'stop and search' demographic: young, black, male) who have been regularly stopped and searched in and around SW2/9. Both are law-abiding citizens, both with good jobs and love their cars. So, despite this, they are regularly pulled over and asked to prove if the motors they're driving are really theirs, then its a vehicle check, a previous check on each of them, onto finding any small detail in which to try and nab them on, etc.
Sure, they've got 'nothing to hide' but what a fucking waste of police time, and it's not surprising that they've got such a distrust of the police. Besides, even if someone isn't all that golden, if the police haven't got any reasonable information and/or suspicion towards somebody in regards to warranting a 'stop and search', they shouldn't IMO.
).I think it's fair to say that whilst much better these days, there's still harassment towards gay guys who some police make an automatic judgement that they might be 'up to no good' - my mate's been 'stopped and searched' in the last few years for merely taking a walk through Clapham Common in the late evening and then asked all manner of questions relating to his sexuality. I don't care if the area has a 'history' or not for cruising, it's still way out of order by the police.
I've got two friends in South London (who fit the police's preferred 'stop and search' demographic: young, black, male) who have been regularly stopped and searched in and around SW2/9. Both are law-abiding citizens, both with good jobs and love their cars. So, despite this, they are regularly pulled over and asked to prove if the motors they're driving are really theirs, then its a vehicle check, a previous check on each of them, onto finding any small detail in which to try and nab them on, etc.
Sure, they've got 'nothing to hide' but what a fucking waste of police time, and it's not surprising that they've got such a distrust of the police. Besides, even if someone isn't all that golden, if the police haven't got any reasonable information and/or suspicion towards somebody in regards to warranting a 'stop and search', they shouldn't IMO.
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
Yeah well, if you have a long memory like mine you will recall the Brixton Police Commander (Fairbairn by name) using the same argument to justify Operation Swamp 81. Apparently decent people didn't walk around Brixton after 7 pm. Maybe so - but the excessive stopping and searching in Feb/March 1981 led to a big chunk of Railton Road being burnt to the ground, not to mention places like Currys being cleaned out by looters.
I was stopped, along with a group of Young Liberals outside what was then the Coach and Horses ("Living", now a fish shop apparently) in the lead-up period to the riot in early 1981. One of our more disreputable member had to empty all his shopping onto the pavement outside the pub so the police could inspect it. When asked why we couldn't have "Community Policing" one of the police officers advised us to move to Devon or Cornwall, where Community Policing had just started as a policing fashion.
Fortunately I was not in Brixton during the actual 1981 riot - I was in Bury St Edmunds watching Dr Who - and the news of the riot came on as a newsflash, interrupting the alien action!
I was stopped, along with a group of Young Liberals outside what was then the Coach and Horses ("Living", now a fish shop apparently) in the lead-up period to the riot in early 1981. One of our more disreputable member had to empty all his shopping onto the pavement outside the pub so the police could inspect it. When asked why we couldn't have "Community Policing" one of the police officers advised us to move to Devon or Cornwall, where Community Policing had just started as a policing fashion.
Fortunately I was not in Brixton during the actual 1981 riot - I was in Bury St Edmunds watching Dr Who - and the news of the riot came on as a newsflash, interrupting the alien action!
Parent's ability to be 'responsible' is determined by lots of factors, not always within their control.
(needs a new kind on quotes to put round responsible that doesnt sound sarcastic, it's not supposed to)
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
No.
Whatever circumstances parents find themselves in, for whatever reason, they can still tell their children what time to be home. It takes a lot of effort, and it's not always straightforward, but all parents can (and must) take reponsibility for their children.
Let's not stoop to the patronising and racist attitudes that say they can't help it because of their colour.
Ms T
Honey-coloured ramparts
I dunno, my next-door-neighbour (black lady fwiw) was always very, very strict with her children because she knew that if she wasn't, they would likely get into trouble living in this area (her words, not mine). Only her youngest son lives at home now, and he's 19 or something, and a very well-mannered boy who works full-time. You should hear her on the subject of parent's responsibility - she gets very cross about the number of people on our street who allow their children to stay out until all hours. In the summer you get 10-year-olds who are still out at midnight annoying the neighbours - it's not surprising that they get into trouble when they're older. It's all too easy for them to start running with the gangs.
On the stop-and-search issue, I'm not surprised that young black men get pissed off with it. It would piss me off too - but I'm a middle-class white woman so noone ever stops me. I remember I worked with a guy once who was stopped by the police on his way home from work, ffs, in a car. Mind you, they backed off pretty sharpish when he told them he'd just finished a shift at the Today programme.
On the stop-and-search issue, I'm not surprised that young black men get pissed off with it. It would piss me off too - but I'm a middle-class white woman so noone ever stops me. I remember I worked with a guy once who was stopped by the police on his way home from work, ffs, in a car. Mind you, they backed off pretty sharpish when he told them he'd just finished a shift at the Today programme.
What I was alluding to was:
- parents who have to work evenings to keep enough money coming in
- single parents who have to work till 6 when their kids finish at 3:30 (as per my mum when I was growing up)
- small flats where there's no room for kids to have their own space or do their homework
- parents with addiction or mental health issues
- parents who's relationships are on the rocks and the last place kids want to be is at home.
I was talking about equality of opportunity and issues arising from poverty, I did'nt even mention race in relation to this
. I've spent a considerable amount of time in the past campaigning against racism and find the suggestion quite offensive.
Mrs Magpie
On a bit of break...
Can I see your full medical records and sexual history please? If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
What I was alluding to was:
- parents who have to work evenings to keep enough money coming in
- single parents who have to work till 6 when their kids finish at 3:30 (as per my mum when I was growing up)
- small flats where there's no room for kids to have their own space or do their homework
- parents with addiction or mental health issues
- parents who's relationships are on the rocks and the last place kids want to be is at home.
I was talking about equality of opportunity and issues arising from poverty, I did'nt even mention race in relation to this
There are many parents in poverty doing a commendable job of raising their children. It's tough and requires strength of character, but making excuses for failing parents doesn't help anyone.
Although you didn't raise the issue of race, CH1 mentioned black 14-16 year old boys out at 1am. And by the way, hating the BNP and reading the Guardian doesn't make you a non-racist. Subtle unconcious racism can be just as damaging as anything Nick Griffin does. (and actually I didn't call you a racist, I called your attitude racist - and I'm happy to conceed that you're probably less racist than most people, myself included).
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
editor
hiraethified
You've been warned repeatedly about your endless trolling and your disruptive personal attacks, and if you think you can bring this shit into the Brixton forum you're very much mistaken.
Week ban.
hendo
Fish finger sandwiches
Don't tempt him.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Who's been "making excuses" for "failing parents"? - I haven't seen anyone doing this on this thread. All that has been said is that there are a proportion of parents who just don't do their jobs.
I can't see how getting all tough and moralistic with them in some (unspecified by you) way is going to suddenly make them wonderful parents. How are you suddenly going to inject this "strength of character" into people who haven't got it?
Nearly every single one of the wide variety of reasons given by memespring as to why some parents end up neglecting their children are directly or indirectly associated with poverty and meaningful solutions to this problem are almost certainly (IMO) to be found in reducing poverty (ie in narrowing social wealth divisions), not in these highly individualistic, moralistic prescriptions like 'condemning failing parents'.
Indeed, if the real motor of the corrosive effect of poverty is the sense of permanent shame and worthlessness that poverty engenders in the poor, then heaping condemnation on is a way of worsening the problem, not alleviating it.
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
How to get out of poverty:
1. Stop smoking.
2. Stop drinking.
3. Stop taking your fat kids to McDonalds.
4. Halve your spending on Christmas presents, and give your time and love instead.
5. Don't have kids until you can afford them, or tell your kids not to have kids until they can aford them.
6. Eat only unprocessed food from the market.
7. Apply for at least one job a month which pays better than the one you already have.
8. Do an Open University course in something vocational.
9. Sell your least used possessions on ebay.
10. Write down every penny you spend.
It's just common sense really.
But that's not even the point. The point is that poverty is not an excuss for bringing up your children badly. Memespring said
"Parent's ability to be 'responsible' is determined by lots of factors, not always within their control."
I'm saying it is always within their control. There are no factors which force parents to bring up their children badly. Saying that there are factors outside the control of parents which make them unable to bring up their children properly, is to make excusses for them. And in the context of this thread and this discussion it is a racist attitude.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
That's awful. I'm sorry. Fortunately I've not had any friends harmed in gang violence. (My friend's brother died in police custody but that's another story.)
Getting back to my original point and the argument in this thread, what do you think of the policing round here? You seemed to be suggesting that the type of stop and search we've been discussing is justified because of the violence you've outlined. But my point was that stop and search (as used in Brixton) appears to alienate a whole section of the community, making intelligence-led policing (which might help to solve some of the gang violence) all the more harder.
I'm not pretending to know what the answer is. But I'm interested to hear what people think.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
TBH the "unconscious racism" that you seem to see everywhere on this thread appears to me to be something that is principally your problem here; no one's talking about factors 'outside of parental control (eg poverty) that cause bad parenting and also only affect black people' - that seems to be your assumption. If one is arguing that structural social factors are probably dominant in causing bad parenting (as I am, and I would guess memespring is too) then it's clear that skin colour is utterly irrelevant to that, and indeed that's what I think.
As for your list of "common sense" nostrums, they don't really boil down to much more than demanding to know why don't these failing parents just jolly well pull their socks up?
I have to admit that my first response to that is that it's really hopelessly inadequate and obviously so. Do you not think that if things were that easy, we might have sorted it out a long time ago? Does it not seem simplistic? It's not really a question of the moral rightness or wrongness of your suggested policy for me, more a question of the obviously-not-going-to-workness of it. But it does seem to me to have a highly moralistic element to it; namely that you are expressing how much a better person you are than these failing parents. That may make you feel good but it will do nothing for the problem of failing parenting and the multifarious social ills that result from it.
My second response is to ask how individuals (since you seem fixated on individualistic solutions to social problems) are supposed to pull themselves out of poverty in an economy which has poverty structurally built in to it? Clearly it is technically possible for some people to do this, but that can only happen if others fall back into poverty to replace them. I'm old enough to remember when the best predictor of leaving poverty was moving into employment but if we have an economy (which we now do) that has millions of minimum wage jobs that - in London - mean that a full-time worker on that wage is living in poverty (and millions are), then how are your little self-help remedies going to change that?
Lastly - and just to return to the moralistic component of your self-help thesis - you say "poverty is not an excuse for bringing up your children badly". I'm not seeking to excuse bad parenting or to use poverty as an excuse for it. I'm saying there is a hugely powerful correlation between poverty and all of the factors cited by (e.g) memespring (I'm sure I could think of others), and bad parenting and most of these factors are - by definition - beyond the control of the poor who are the primary victims of them. You can ignore that correlation and insist on "individual responsibility" but I think all you really achieve is making yourself feel better; you will never solve the social ills you claim to be interested in.
I think the reasons that people are alienated from the police can not simply be put down to the occasional bits of over zelaous policing. I really dont think its that simple.
I think there are loads of factors. education,role models and what i think is best described as institutional indifference to young working class men.
I also think many young men are naturally drawn by the excitement of being involved in gangs and others are pressurised into it.
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
You are making unreasonable excuses (ie that structural social factors are probably dominant in causing bad parenting) which are disproportionately applicable to black people. I think that's racist.
Correct. You understand me clearly. I believe these parents should 'just jolly well pull their socks up', to use your words.
I have not said that it is easy. You are however correct that it is simple.
This is a moral issue. This is the time to be moralistic. Parents should bring their kids up well, and not allow them to wander the streets at 1am. Not to do so is immoral.
This is the nub of your missunderstanding. You don't have the faintest idea how wealth is created. You have assumed the classic 'lump of labour fallacy'. There are not a fixed number of jobs. People can create jobs. Hard working people make money. Wealth can be created.
I accept the correlation, but not your belief that people can't get themselves out of poverty.
You're making this up, aren't you Balders? Your examples seem to conveniently to back your weirdo viewpoints up. And what the hell has 'institutional indifference to young working class men' got to do with it - the police are hardly set apart from that group, are they?
Trust me, once you're repeatedly stopped by police - and customer service and politeness isn't their usual strong point - then tensions begin to grate. I've lived here for over 30 years now and I can point to plenty of experience that it is largely as simple as that for many folks. Even if there was a level playing field elswhere, which of course there isn't, indiscriminate use of stop and search will lead to people's impressions of the law being coloured from an early age. Why respect a force that is rude and discriminatory to you from an early age and shows little sign of change. It's not just that of course, but it's difficult to underestimate just how much that feeling of resentment and unfairness sticks with you. Especially when it happens again and again, both to yourself and people you love.
Trust me, once you're repeatedly stopped by police - and customer service and politeness isn't their usual strong point - then tensions begin to grate. I've lived here for over 30 years now and I can point to plenty of experience that it is largely as simple as that for many folks. Even if there was a level playing field elswhere, which of course there isn't, indiscriminate use of stop and search will lead to people's impressions of the law being coloured from an early age. Why respect a force that is rude and discriminatory to you from an early age and shows little sign of change. It's not just that of course, but it's difficult to underestimate just how much that feeling of resentment and unfairness sticks with you. Especially when it happens again and again, both to yourself and people you love.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
*yawn*
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
Argument fail. It's probably true that 'black people' as a group are poorer than average in the UK economy and therefore an argument which sees poverty as predisposing groups to 'behaving badly' (however defined) is likely to expect a correlation between 'black people' and bad behaviour. But it's clearly not racist if the correlation is due to the third factor (ie poverty) not to the skin colour.
It's just silly to suggest otherwise. It's you who keep dragging race in, to the extent that I now guess you probably do have a racist agenda of some sort which you are trying to play out - albeit quite possibly one of the unconscious ones you yourself mentioned.
OK, so it's simple but not easy. How do you do it?
You can posture on morality all you like. My point is that if it doesn't work it's meaningless (excepting boosting your own narcissism about your own moral wonderfulness of course). Parents should indeed "bring their children up well" and no one anywhere on this thread or anywhere else in the world for that matter has ever said otherwise. But if they're not doing that, what do we do about it?
I guess I must have imagined the First Class degree I have in Economics. Ah well.
It's not so much that "people can't get themselves out of poverty" - clearly individuals can and do. But if you maintain (as we have chosen to do in the UK) an economy that keeps millions of people on the dole and millions more on minimum wages that mean those workers are often in poverty, then you simply have to accept that all the problems associated with poverty will accompany your society. And this will be the case until we decide that we will end poverty by altering the structure of our economy to remove the economic underclass.
I don't mind free-will ultra-liberals such as yourself defending that great utopian illusion the "free market" - some people do very well out of it, yourself included I guess - I just wish you'd stop trying to have your cake and eat it. If you make massive social wealth divisions the cornerstone of your economy you will pay the social price in all the usual ways your society will be plagued with high levels of poor physical and mental health, poor education, high disposition to criminal behaviour, high levels of violence, low levels of social trust etc etc.
To want the "free market" without these things is a New Labour fantasy.
Laughing Toad
Turn the volume down please.
I've already explained that. You refered to them as nostrums.
It does work. My own moral wonderfulness comes from knowing that I'm encouraging all people to be wealthy. Would you prefer the mothers of errant black 14 year olds to stay poor? Don't make me call you a racist again.
We shame them.
(Shame is unacceptable for things people are powerless to change, but perfectly acceptable for things which people can change)
Ask for your money back.
Either people can get themselves out of poverty or they can't. If they can then the economy isn't keeping them there is it?
And why would you guess that? Because I'm outsmarting you and only rich people can think? Because I believe black boys shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets at 1am? Or do you assume everyone in this world who thinks that individuals can create wealth must be wealthy (which actually wouldn't be too far off the mark. Part of helping people out of poverty is persuading them that it is possible)?
Inequality isn't a problem as long as it's fair. (Let know if you need me to explain that)
