Police demand right to strike?

[Stobart Stopper]

If the police go on strike it could mean the closure of lots of kebab shops.

 

[Guineveretoo]

So what your philosophy boils down to is bending the knee in the hope of ameliorating the worst excesses?
Because that is what it smells like.

I didn't say anything about bending the knee, whatever that means. What I was putting to you all is that the unions, as a movement, both collectively and individually, need to change the way they organise and recognise the fact the workforce of this country has changed from when unions were first set up.

This includes recognising that unions serve a different purpose in many ways, and that a lot more of the union work is dealing with individual personal cases rather than collective issues.

it also includes recognising that, if the majority of people working for a particular employer are "managers" in that they supervise the work of others, then that is who the union based in that workplace, will be representing, and the minority who are not "managers" need to do the best they can to ensure they are heard.

If that means setting up a separate trade union for the non-managers, then so be it. But if that separate union is going to be too small to be able to organise effectively, and too small to be able to raise funds to pay legal bills when members need help, then maybe it won't work.

Both of these are issues which the unions need to address, and which I think they are trying to do.

One of the solutions found was to merge the unions and form these "super" unions. Although I was in Nalgo and voted in favour of the setting up of UNISON, I think I was mislead and misinformed, and wouldn't now support that merger if I was asked again. I am in the GMB, and opposed the merger with TGWU and Amicus.

However, there are other solutions, and the unions cannot just sit back and argue amongst ourselves about what the working class is, and whether or not unions are necessary anymore, and whether or not managers should be allowed in unions, or whether it is right for immigration officials to be in PCS, or for the police to have the right to strike...

 

[Guineveretoo]

Vampires are selfish. It wouldn't occur to them to organise collectively.

I'm sure they'd be very grateful to any nice human idealogue who tried to preach to them.

Grateful for the meal, anyway.

I suspect all of us are basically selfish, and only do something if it benefits us at the end of the day. The little vampires might support the victims if they could see an advantage to themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes. I did read what was after. And it was nonsense. I already explained why I don't see what "managerialisation" has to do with the situation described.

More a case of "don't understand" than "don't see", then, or you'd realise it isn't nonsense.

I'd also like to know what control is exerted over us. Our union don't win many battles nationally but those we take on locally we are not interfered with by anyone (mainly due to their incompetence).

Who decides your union's regulations/updates them/rewords them? Who has the final say on the wording of ballots? Who decides on the remuneration of dull-time officials?
That's just three examples of how control can be exerted over the membership. Engage your imagination and I'm sure you can think of many more by yourself.

Nothing to do with being blind to ideology. I can't think of any example of a line manager altering us from a course during a meeting.

Why would they need to if they've already had input as fellow members?

As this tangent was about specific examples, you have generalised about areas which you don't know anything about. And about which you are quite badly wrong.

Yes dear, I've already said that I had generalised, what else do you think "...I haven't claimed to have been doing anything except generalising about the trade union movement..." means? That I'd like two pieces of cod and a large portion of chips, perhaps?

 

[poster342002]

wtr to 'supervising temps' - obviously that doesn't count because it's not a full time position with any of the fringe benefits of it being so (higher wage, etcetera).

The "fringe benefit" they get is the sick power-trip of bossing someone around.

 

[poster342002]

I meant, what the union has to do when that happens.

How can the union do very much when that (individuals in mangement grades undermining collective support with their disgusting abuse of subordiantes) happens when most their membership is made up of those same managers? What recourse does the low-grade worker have?

 

[poster342002]

it also includes recognising that, if the majority of people working for a particular employer are "managers" in that they supervise the work of others, then that is who the union based in that workplace, will be representing, and the minority who are not "managers" need to do the best they can to ensure they are heard.

So we non-mangers are already disadvanteged in the workplace and now in the unions, too, where we also face an uphill battle. Fantastic.

 

[poster342002]

I suspect all of us are basically selfish, and only do something if it benefits us at the end of the day. The little vampires might support the victims if they could see an advantage to themselves.

And so long as they'd still be gauranteed their "right to bite necks" afterwards. Their just doing their job, see....

 

[Guineveretoo]

How can the union do very much when that (individuals in mangement grades undermining collective support with their disgusting abuse of subordiantes) happens when most their membership is made up of those same managers? What recourse does the low-grade worker have?

I was talking about individual support in my reply. Providing solidarity and confidence as well as legal advice.

 

[Guineveretoo]

So we non-mangers are already disadvanteged in the workplace and now in the unions, too, where we also face an uphill battle. Fantastic.

Indeed.

What is the alternative?

Setting up unions only for people who do not have any management responsibility?

 

[Guineveretoo]

And so long as they'd still be gauranteed their "right to bite necks" afterwards. Their just doing their job, see....

What is the solution that you see?

 

[poster342002]

I was talking about individual support in my reply. Providing solidarity and confidence as well as legal advice.

What incentive will they have to provide even that when the people handling the cases are also managers and have more sympathy with the boss?

 

[poster342002]

What is the alternative?

Setting up unions only for people who do not have any management responsibility?

Eventually, this will have to happen if what's left of the workers are to have any dignity or surivvial at work (rather than be left hoping for pity or charity from the bosses unions).

It would have to be a pan-trades union for all non-management in the UK. It could then fight for the creation of more non-manager jobs in the workplace to begin to redress the obscene inbalance.

A tall task - but the only way to begin to change the situation.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Interesting idea.

So, this body would act collectively on behalf of all non managers?

Would it seek formal recognition in each workplace, or would it seek to work outwith the anti trade union laws? Would it also provide individual support to individuals in trouble at work, or only collective support?

What support would it provide to those non managers, either collectively or individually?

Would it seek to be part of the TUC?

 

[poster342002]

Interesting idea.

So, this body would act collectively on behalf of all non managers?

Would it seek formal recognition in each workplace, or would it seek to work outwith the anti trade union laws? Would it also provide individual support to individuals in trouble at work, or only collective support?

What support would it provide to those non managers, either collectively or individually?

Would it seek to be part of the TUC?

All these issues would have to be thrashed out democratically. In a nutshell, though, the answer to most of the above questiosn would probably be "yes" apart from the TUC bit.