Police demand right to strike?

[ViolentPanda]

My mum sold pork pies but my dad was the Marquis de Sade, what class am I?

Yawn.

Don't worry, IB. You'll always be low class to me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Where does, say, my manager fall into that?

He's on about £25k and manages me and one other colleague but has several tiers of management above him.

Is he a class enemy?

Depends whose side he fights on in the class war, doesn't it?

 

[In Bloom]

Don't worry, IB. You'll always be low class to me.

Did you see that? Did you see him repressing me?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Did you see that? Did you see him repressing me?

You love it really!

 

[poster342002]

And for all you anarchists out there, remember sections of the Hungarian police came out on the side of the workers and fought in 1956.

Hasn't this happened in pretty much all revolutions, though? Eventually the police and army rank-and-file simply decide it ain't worth fighting for a regime that's plainly collapsing around them?

 

[poster342002]

The point is that even if they did go on strike, even if they won whatever it is they wanted, they'd be back to fucking other groups of workers on strike at the first opportunity. There's no opportunity for any kind of meaningful solidarity there, no way that they can work within the workers' movement in any real sense.

The same could be said about a large number of "workers" that the trots fetishise, though (dole investigators, etc).

 

[cockneyrebel]

Hasn't this happened in pretty much all revolutions, though? Eventually the police and army rank-and-file simply decide it ain't worth fighting for a regime that's plainly collapsing around them?

Agree with this. Generally the police nearly always side with the ruling class in revolutionary situations, even more than the army. It's more likely, as you say, that they'll stop supporting a regime out of self interest of not wanting to be on the losing side, than any other reason. Not really surprising when a big slice of your job is to smash up working class resistance and you're taught all the "thin blue line" bollox on a daily basis. That's why I always think the Socialist Party's "workers in uniform" line isn't right. As in bloom has said how can you have solidarity with an organisation that is there to break up pickets line, smash up strikes and protect scabs?

The same could be said about a large number of "workers" that the trots fetishise, though (dole investigators, etc).

Although the difference with the police and any other worker is that police are unique in their role of physically attacking working class movements and breaking up strikes.

Having said that I think it's disgusting that the PCS allows immigration workers who break into peoples homes, abduct people and deport them to be part of the union. Not only that but a NC that is dominated by revolutionary socialists actually shows concern for the health and safety of the bastards.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Where does, say, my manager fall into that?

He's on about £25k and manages me and one other colleague but has several tiers of management above him.

Is he a class enemy?

He's still a manager if he has a boss - and yes he's a class enemy. At the end of the day his economic interests do not lie in solidarity with the workers.

 

[cockneyrebel]

He's still a manager if he has a boss - and yes he's a class enemy. At the end of the day his economic interests do not lie in solidarity with the workers.

Wait a minute there are quite a few low level managers in the SWP. Do you regard them as the class enemy?

To be honest in bloom has it right on this one, you can't make catch all decisions on this. While I have no problem saying that managers shouldn't be allowed into union meetings (unless workers give permission) and that management can't be trusted you might have the odd case where managers do stand 100% behind the union and working class struggles, although it's obviously quite rare.

You're right about economic interests and work place pressure on managers will often make them act a certain way, but political consciousness can overide that. Also I'm not being funny but 25k a year in London is hardly a great wage.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Agree with this. Generally the police nearly always side with the ruling class in revolutionary situations, even more than the army. It's more likely, as you say, that they'll stop supporting a regime out of self interest of not wanting to be on the losing side, than any other reason. Not really surprising when a big slice of your job is to smash up working class resistance and you're taught all the "thin blue line" bollox on a daily basis. That's why I always think the Socialist Party's "workers in uniform" line isn't right. As in bloom has said how can you have solidarity with an organisation that is there to break up pickets line, smash up strikes and protect scabs?



Although the difference with the police and any other worker is that police are unique in their role of physically attacking working class movements and breaking up strikes.

The police side with the ruling class whilst doing their job, because it is the ruling class who tell them what to do, and that is their job

They protect scabs and even right wingers, because even scabs and right wingers have a right to go about their day to day life, so long as they are not breaking the law. It's not actually illegal to be a scab or a right winger. Unfortunately.

Whilst not doing their job, though, they may have different views. Whilst trying to protect their own terms and conditions they may have different views, too!

 

[Guineveretoo]

Wait a minute there are quite a few low level managers in the SWP. Do you regard them as the class enemy?

To be honest in bloom has it right on this one, you can't make catch all decisions on this. While I have no problem saying that managers shouldn't be allowed into union meetings (unless workers give permission) and that management can't be trusted you might have the odd case where managers do stand 100% behind the union and working class struggles, although it's obviously quite rare.

You're right about economic interests and work place pressure on managers will often make them act a certain way, but political consciousness can overide that. Also I'm not being funny but 25k a year in London is hardly a great wage.

I don't see how you can tell a manager who is a union member that s/he can't attend a union meeting!

 

[glenquagmire]

He's still a manager if he has a boss - and yes he's a class enemy. At the end of the day his economic interests do not lie in solidarity with the workers.

Blimey. All it takes to become a class enemy is to get promoted from level 1 to level 2 (of about 12). Now I'm forewarned I won't be making that mistake.

Unfortunately, that definition of anyone with line management responsibility of even one person as a class enemy means that about 70% of staff in this (fairly average, public sector) organisation are the enemy. Which doesn't bode well for the revolution. So much for "they have the guns, we have the numbers".

 

[cockneyrebel]

The police side with the ruling class whilst doing their job, because it is the ruling class who tell them what to do, and that is their job

They protect scabs and even right wingers, because even scabs and right wingers have a right to go about their day to day life, so long as they are not breaking the law. It's not actually illegal to be a scab or a right winger. Unfortunately.

Whilst not doing their job, though, they may have different views. Whilst trying to protect their own terms and conditions they may have different views, too!

Exactly, it is their job to oppress the working class, so we can't have solidarity with them. And history shows they nearly always side with the ruling class (probably 99.999% of the time). I should think that with police forces now being more "professional" that would even more likely be the case.

Don't get whether they can strike or not, as in bloom said, fuck 'em.

I don't see how you can tell a manager who is a union member that s/he can't attend a union meeting!

If a union branch is strong enough you can do what you like. Because we knew managers were just coming to eves drop we banned them from coming to the union meetings in one place I worked. Nothing they could do about it.

Some unions don't let managers be members.

Blimey. All it takes to become a class enemy is to get promoted from level 1 to level 2 (of about 12). Now I'm forewarned I won't be making that mistake.

Unfortunately, that definition of anyone with line management responsibility of even one person as a class enemy means that about 70% of staff in this (fairly average, public sector) organisation are the enemy. Which doesn't bode well for the revolution. So much for "they have the guns, we have the numbers".

It's even more strange given there are managers in the SWP.

 

[In Bloom]

They protect scabs and even right wingers, because even scabs and right wingers have a right to go about their day to day life

I don't give a toss why they protect scabs or break up pickets, what matters is that they do it.

 

[HackneyE9]

It's interesting that according to that BBC report, policy pay has gone up 36% - that's 10% over inflation - simply under New Labour. When from what I remember, it had already shot up dramatically under Thatcher compared with doctors, nurses, firemen etc already...

Blunkett tried to take the police on in around 2002 over 'spanish practices', ie years of sickpay etc, but backed down in the end. So much for the 'hardman' image!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So who polices demonstrations and marches then?

Average demonstrations etc. The police monitor them, but they deliberately maintain a low profile, unless there's a threat of violence.

Wrt strikes, there might be rallies, but strikers tend to confine their activities to striking and picketing.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Really? I mean really really or just one strike turning violent?

I mean the police going on strike, and the general public, or parts of it, looting etc. in the absence of a police presence.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

"Montreal is in a state of shock. A police officer is dead and 108 people have been arrested following 16 hours of chaos during which police and firefighters refused to work. At first, the strike's impact was limited to more bank robberies than normal. But as night fell, a taxi drivers' union seized upon the police absence to violently protest a competitor's exclusive right to airport pickups. The result, according to this CBC Television special, was a "night of terror.

Shattered shop windows and a trail of broken glass are evidence of looting that erupted in the downtown core. With no one to stop them, students and separatists joined the rampage. Shop owners, some of them armed, struggled to fend off looters. Restaurants and hotels were also targeted. A corporal with the Quebec provincial police was shot and killed at the garage of the Murray Hill limousine company as taxi drivers tried to burn it down.

As police returned to duty in the wee hours, the arrests began. By morning, the city's public buildings were under guard by the army, which was summoned by Premier Jean-Jacques Bertrand. At least 20 people have been injured, and damage from the riot has been estimated at $2 million ($10.7 million in 2005 dollars)."

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-1805-12238-10/on_this_day/conflict_war/twt

 

[poster342002]

Although the difference with the police and any other worker is that police are unique in their role of physically attacking working class movements and breaking up strikes.

The police may attack workers physically, but other groups of officials courted by the left often attack workers via non-physical (yet catastrophic) means. A junior manager has the power to utterly destroy a workers living standard by throwing them out of work, for expample. A benefit-fraud investigator can land a working class person with a horrendous fine and so forth. These tyeps may indeed striek, but as soon as the strike is over it's "business as usual" and they go back to shitting all over working class people as part of their job.

TBH, at least a copper might help you if they saw you being mugged.

 

[poster342002]

I don't see how you can tell a manager who is a union member that s/he can't attend a union meeting!

That's the trojan horse syndrome for you. Workers have no protection at all now - as the bastards infest their unions as well as their workplaces.

 

[poster342002]

Blimey. All it takes to become a class enemy is to get promoted from level 1 to level 2 (of about 12). Now I'm forewarned I won't be making that mistake.

That's because the person at level 2 is tasked with fucking over the person at level 1.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The police may attack workers physically, but other groups of officials courted by the left often attack workers via non-physical (yet catastrophic) means. A junior manager has the power to utterly destroy a workers living standard by throwing them out of work,
.

Hey poster, a new slogan for the swappies they could abandon the 'we are all Hizbollah' line and change it for 'we are all line managment' LOL!

 

[poster342002]

Unfortunately, that definition of anyone with line management responsibility of even one person as a class enemy means that about 70% of staff in this (fairly average, public sector) organisation are the enemy. Which doesn't bode well for the revolution. So much for "they have the guns, we have the numbers".

That's why there is no solidarity in the UK. The ruling class has all but wiped out the working classes in this way. We now form a minority whilst the bullying middle classes now outnumber us. The question is what to do about it. The answer is not to crawl and grovel to these festering ranks of managers, endlessly offering our unconditional support whilst they show nothing in return.

 

[glenquagmire]

That's because the person at level 2 is tasked with fucking over the person at level 1.

That's a pretty inaccurate description of my relationship with my line manager.

What did you mean by unconditional support?

Most of the lower tier managers are union members where I work. If they weren't, we'd only have about 10% membership density and probably be de-recognised eventually.

 

[cockneyrebel]

The police may attack workers physically, but other groups of officials courted by the left often attack workers via non-physical (yet catastrophic) means. A junior manager has the power to utterly destroy a workers living standard by throwing them out of work, for expample. A benefit-fraud investigator can land a working class person with a horrendous fine and so forth. These tyeps may indeed striek, but as soon as the strike is over it's "business as usual" and they go back to shitting all over working class people as part of their job.

TBH, at least a copper might help you if they saw you being mugged.

But it’s not because of moralistic reasons that I don’t think the police should be included in the workers movement (and the same goes for immigration snatch squads), it’s because of their specific role in smashing up working class resistance.

There are many jobs which one way or another are negative or have negative impacts. This could include anything from factory workers who make arms for imperialism to ticket inspectors to Housing Officers to caretakers to park keepers. The list could go on and on and if you write them all of you’re not left with many workers.

But none of these groups of workers are used to physically smash resistance and working class movements or break up strikes. That’s why I think you can’t have solidarity with the police. They are directly used as the thugs of the ruling classes.

 

[poster342002]

Most of the lower tier managers are union members where I work. If they weren't, we'd only have about 10% membership density and probably be de-recognised eventually.

And how does that benefit the non-managers? What's the point of having people in the union who's very role is to control, discipline and fire you on behalf of the capitalist employer? The workers might as well not have a union at all for all the good having one where their boss's (conficlted) interests are catered for - nomatter how much it bumps up the membership figures.

Basically - the working class grades are now royally fucked either way. We've been marginalsied and minoritised by the system and no longer have enough critical mass to form proper unions, so are now in the humiliating position of near serfdom in all areas of life. We now have to listen to our sadistic masters hypocritically wanking on about "workers rights" in a union meeting before threatening us with bad perfomance reports (as "part of their job") the second we get back to our desks.

 

[cockneyrebel]

And how does that benefit the non-managers? What's the point of having people in the union who's very role is to control, discipline and fire you on behalf of the capitalist employer? The workers might as well not have a union at all for all the good having one where their boss's (conficlted) interests are catered for - nomatter how much it bumps up the membership figures.

The trouble is that in many work places bosses have given lots of staff supervisory powers in order to break down solidarity. My mate who worked in a team of four in a petrol station had a team of: Manager, Assitant Manager, Supervisor and Assistant Supervisor!!!! All of them were on very low wages.

There are people in the civil services and local government on extremely low wages, but they're made to supervise temps. Personally I wouldn't write people like that off.

I don't think you can say the answer is to write everyone off who has any supervisory powers whatsoever, but you're right to be suspicious of management and their role and say that, in general, they can't be trusted.

 

[poster342002]

The list could go on and on and if you write them all of you’re not left with many workers.

But none of these groups of workers are used to physically smash resistance and working class movements or break up strikes. That’s why I think you can’t have solidarity with the police. They are directly used as the thugs of the ruling classes.

Yes - the situation is shit but at least I can face up to it rather than humiliating myself by appealing to the class enemeies that now outnumber our side in the vain hope they might be a bit ncier to us if we brownnonse them enough. You can't have soldiarity with these types. The police can attack the worker with a tuncheon, but the other (oh, so, brave) fuckers do it with the flick of a pen and the closing-ranks tactic. To hell with them - they aint' no allies of mine until they buck up their ideas and start showing proper solidarity rather than the one-way variety they believe their position entitles them to.

 

[poster342002]

The trouble is that in many work places bosses have given lots of staff supervisory powers in order to break down solidarity.

Yes, that's the problem - and it's worked. How do we deal with it?

PS: Most employers got away with that by stealth over the last 20 years with the complacency of the unions. The employer has only to dress up an attack under the guise of "carreer developemtn opportunities" and the unions go all quiet.

 

[glenquagmire]

The workers might as well not have a union at all for all the good having one where their boss's (conficlted) interests are catered for - nomatter how much it bumps up the membership figures.

I can't believe this. You honestly think that we'd be better off without a recognised union, JCC, negotiated pay and conditions etc? As shop steward I helped my boss and some of his colleagues get a pay upgrade when their positions were restructured. I don't mind doing that at all if the alternative is basically not having a union. There has been no conflict so far between two members in a line management relationship but if there was we have clear procedures for dealing with it.

Number aren't everything but they're pretty important. Let me put it another way. When we had the LGPS dispute last year, if only Level 1 workers had been union members, we would have made no difference whatsoever as each department would have a manager working there keeping it open. By having a lot of those junior managers in the union, we increase their awareness and concept of solidarity as 95% of the time our interests are aligned with theirs.