poland rejoins the modern world - Kaczynski loses election

[ska invita]

There were leftwing parties standing in the Polish elections, unfortunately for them they are hugely unpopular with the Polish electorate who associate 'Socialism' with the decades of Soviet oppression and economic stagnation.

That's true - but- If I remember correctly after communism officially fell in Poland, the Poles twice voted in an ex-communist socialist government who have since declined in support.

I think there is still considerable sympathy for socialist politics in Poland, but the current climate is one of 'lets rebuild the country', with a hope that business will give the cash injection that is needed. This is not to say that socialism is dead and buried in Poland.

It looks as if even under the new regime there will have to be many deals done with the centre-left party in order to get bills passed.

 

[London Boy]

But here is an election that does make a slight difference, and everyone concentrates on the economy. What a fucking shame.

Well if you are a person that relies on the welfare state to keep you above absolute poverty and destitution, if you are a small farmer who relies on the government to provide assitance to your famring against the competition from global agricultural companies and supermarkets via grants and measures that keep foriegn competition and interference out of your country, if you are a worker who would be laid off and out of work if the government gave in to EU pressure to deregulate the industrial sector even more, then all of these people will concentrate on the economy.

The economy is always the most important issue for most people as it means the difference between a home and homelessness, a meal or starvation, a chance to bring up children or having to struggle day to day.

For the Poles who will now suffer under Tusk, the economy will always be more important that some stupid issue like Frau Merkel being insulted at a EU summit by the twins or some other equally irrelevant issue.

 

[Dillinger4]

Well if you are a person that relies on the welfare state to keep you above absolute poverty and destitution, if you are a small farmer who relies on the government to provide assitance to your famring against the competition from global agricultural companies and supermarkets via grants and measures that keep foriegn competition and interference out of your country, if you are a worker who would be laid off and out of work if the government gave in to EU pressure to deregulate the industrial sector even more, then all of these people will concentrate on the economy.

The economy is always the most important issue for most people as it means the difference between a home and homelessness, a meal or starvation, a chance to bring up children or having to struggle day to day.

For the Poles who will now suffer under Tusk, the economy will always be more important that some stupid issue like Frau Merkel being insulted at a EU summit by the twins or some other equally irrelevant issue.

I disagree so fundamentally with this post that I do not even know where to start.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

With the fundamentals, sir!

 

[Belushi]

That's true - but- If I remember correctly after communism officially fell in Poland, the Poles twice voted in an ex-communist socialist government who have since declined in support.

I think there is still considerable sympathy for socialist politics in Poland, but the current climate is one of 'lets rebuild the country', with a hope that business will give the cash injection that is needed. This is not to say that socialism is dead and buried in Poland.

It looks as if even under the new regime there will have to be many deals done with the centre-left party in order to get bills passed.

Yes, they voted in the SLP-Peasant Party Alliance, who were often ex-Communists but a Social Democrat Party who went to great lengths to not describe themselves as Socialist, a term which for many in the old Soviet Bloc is tainted by the old Communist regimes. It was this government which administered the economic 'shock therapy' which caused a huge amount of hardship at the time, though Poland was the first of the old Eastern Bloc states who's GDP returned to pre-1989 levels and then started to grow.

It really depends on what you mean by 'Socialist Policies' theres considerable opposition to free market policies among those who see themselves threatened by them (the huge agricultural sector, coal miners etc) though young people in the cities and in the 'new' economy are more in favour. IME most Poles are in favour of a mixed economy, with businesses and the Government running some industries, they certainly dont want to go back to the bad old days; what they most want is Western European standards of living.

 

[poster342002]

though young people in the cities and in the 'new' economy are more in favour.

We've got these same types of self-centred, upwardly-mobile brats in the UK too. Fuck 'em. They've had a whole decade to themselves now, prancing from overpriced nightclub to the next while the gap between rich & poor grows ever wider. Time they were told to shut up and realise they're not the only people in the world.

Bollocks to yuppies the world over!

 

[London Boy]

I disagree so fundamentally with this post that I do not even know where to start.

I am very curious as to why you think like that, are you saying that people will not vote or hold a political position according to major factors such as the ability to have the basics of life met, such as housing, welfare support, secure jobs, a secure rural economy, stable wages etc... At the end of the day, what issue can be more important than the issue of whether you are able to have a home, food, health system, a education and other needs?

Americans voted in FDR and the New Deal policy in 1933 over the state of the economy and the complete poverty caused by the 1929 crash, likewise with Germany in 1933 voting for Hitler too. The Russian revolution was only possible due to the desire for a better standard of living in terms of the economy meeting peoples needs. The same could even be said of the reasons why the poor and peasants in France supported the 1789 revolution. Intellectuals may have lofty and more abstract ideals that motivate their politics, but for most people the day to day reality of having to get by or going without basic needs are the main factor in the evolution of an individuals political position.

The Law and Justice Party had a position of being in between the radical dogmatism of both the pre-1989 socialist state and the free market era of the 1990s and early 2000s. The party had a position of a mixed economy with enough protection to support Polish industry and the rural sector from the negative aspects of globalisation and to prevent those Poles who lost out on the free market reforms by not letting them slide into absolute poverty by supporting the concept of a welfare state society.

Basically the Poles want a economy where they can do private business, but without that ability to participate in a market economy being turned into ideological dogma by a wholesale restructuring of Polsih society and the benefits of a more social economy being eroded. In short they wanted the good aspects of the old socialist era such as the welfare state and protectionist measures, but without the bad aspects, such as the oppression against the church, economic stagnation and a lack of opportunity, the servitude to the USSR, the secret police etc...

I am not supporting or opposing the twins and their party, but I can understand why many poles support them and felt they offered something that the traditional left-right divide of the past failed to do.

But please tell me which issues that you think are more important in the Polish election, more important than the economy? I am curious to know what you think about of all of this.

 

[Dillinger4]

LB - I apologise in advance if this answer is not detailed or clear enough.

My main contention is with this:

But please tell me which issues that you think are more important in the Polish election, more important than the economy? I am curious to know what you think about of all of this.

I just simply do not agree that the economy is that important. What good are economic benefits if you are gay, or a woman, or not catholic?

I am not saying I do not understand the reasons for why many poles supported the Law and Justice party, because I do agree with you on that.

I don't know.

Its probably better if I come back to this tomorrow. Bit of a strange day, all in all.

 

[Wolveryeti]

For the Poles who will now suffer under Tusk, the economy will always be more important that some stupid issue like Frau Merkel being insulted at a EU summit by the twins or some other equally irrelevant issue.

It's all very well making the right noises about social justice, a la Kaczynski, but if you're funding your programmes on deficit and have no ideas about how to move the country forward, all you're doing is leaving a bigger mess for your successor.

Is Donald Tusk really a neocon slasher and burner? I'm not so sure. I think there are a raft of measures which could make Poland more business friendly (red-tape slashing, reforming planning law), and which would not imply cuts in the social welfare budget. This would certainly make any belt-tightening in the run-up to joining the euro more bearable.

 

[Wolveryeti]

We've got these same types of self-centred, upwardly-mobile brats in the UK too. Fuck 'em. They've had a whole decade to themselves now, prancing from overpriced nightclub to the next while the gap between rich & poor grows ever wider. Time they were told to shut up and realise they're not the only people in the world.

Bollocks to yuppies the world over!

Erm... most ex-pat Tusk-voting Polish youth aren't yuppies. They just want jobs that don't involve sitting at a checkout for 50p an hour. And they're tired of being patronised by a government with one foot in the past which doesn't respect their fundamental right to freedom of expression.

 

[London Boy]

I just simply do not agree that the economy is that important. What good are economic benefits if you are gay, or a woman, or not catholic?

I really don't understand the point here. Homosexuality is not illegal in Poland, they legalised it all the way back in 1932, under the Pilsudski dictatorship. Poland also has a 'gay scene' with bars and clubs that are either gay friendly or gay owned. They even have gay pride marches like we do over in the UK.

What have the twins done to women? I don't know that much on this issue but what has been done by them against the wellbeing of women, any particular cases or policies?

The thing is, Poland allows women to work, homosexuality is legal and open in society and non-Catholic religions are legally allowed to operate in Poland, but of course there is a lot of social conservatism in Poland, but that is part of Poland's strong Christian culture and whether the twins or Tusk is in power will not really alter the way Poles views issues of social liberalism or social conservatism, that is a much more deeper social element that will change by it's own course and not due to a change in parties.

Poland is indeed a divided country, no doubts there, but after the shock of Nazism, the Holocaust, socialist dictatorship, military coup and rule in the 1980s and then the 'shock therapy' of the free market 1990s, what else can one expect?

Is Donald Tusk really a neocon slasher and burner? I'm not so sure.

Maybe not in the same degree as Reagan, Thatcher or Pinochet, but what we can both agree on is that he favours the free market a lot more than the twins.

However, Tusk cannot go as far as the likes of Thatcher did as the President of Poland has made remarks about stopping or slowing down any reforms that a Tusk government would like to see implemented. Expect to see a lot of infighting between the Presidency and the Prime Minister.

I'm not so sure. I think there are a raft of measures which could make Poland more business friendly (red-tape slashing, reforming planning law),

On the planning law, if that were to be abolished, Poland could see a rise in property prices as wealthy non-Poles would buy up land and houses for their own uses. I can understand why Poles would be wary of Germans buying back land in Poland, as Poland expelled the Germans resident in Poland in 1945 for their part in the Third Reich and the horrors that Poland suffered under it's rule. I do know that the twins made statements about keeping Germans out of Poland as property owners/landowners but it will take more time for the Poles to normalise their relations with Germany than it took the British, given that Poland suffered the worst of Nazism, which Britain never did.

This would certainly make any belt-tightening in the run-up to joining the euro more bearable.

Why should there be any belt tightening, that is a very good reason why Poland should not join the single currency and just forget the Euro altogether. The Euro has simply been an excuse for harsh and restrictive austerity measures and for retailers to con consumers with price hikes and using the confusion of a currency changover as a cover for that. Italy had exactly the same problems five years ago.

The Euro only benefits pan-European companies, the corrupt and out of touch political class that runs the EU and a few other small and vested interests. It is a disaster for everyone else.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

However, Tusk cannot go as far as the likes of Thatcher did as the President of Poland has made remarks about stopping or slowing down any reforms that a Tusk government would like to see implemented. Expect to see a lot of infighting between the Presidency and the Prime Minister.

there have been reports that if tusk manage to get all te other parties on his side, no matter what the president says, he won't have the right to slow down legislation.

 

[poster342002]

Erm... most ex-pat Tusk-voting Polish youth aren't yuppies. They just want jobs that don't involve sitting at a checkout for 50p an hour. And they're tired of being patronised by a government with one foot in the past which doesn't respect their fundamental right to freedom of expression.

These sound liek the same type of sentiments we heard at the beginning of the 80s in Britain. "Why should I work my knackers off in a af actory when I can make a killing in the finace industry babbble babble" "I'm alright jack blah blah" "up by your bootstraps bullshit bullshit" "ass-pirationilsm crappo crappo" "stop living in the past yadda yadda" "look at my wad gibbber gibber" "moneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoney and fuck everyone else" ...

Before you know it, it's "there's no such thing as society" and "there's no alternative"

It's how it went here and look where it's left us.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Am I the only person here who keeps thinking of Fleetwood Mac?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Am I the only person here who keeps thinking of Fleetwood Mac?

No.

 

[Wolveryeti]

These sound liek the same type of sentiments we heard at the beginning of the 80s in Britain. "Why should I work my knackers off in a af actory when I can make a killing in the finace industry babbble babble" "I'm alright jack blah blah" "up by your bootstraps bullshit bullshit" "ass-pirationilsm crappo crappo" "stop living in the past yadda yadda" "look at my wad gibbber gibber" "moneymoneymoneymoneymoneymoney and fuck everyone else" ...

Before you know it, it's "there's no such thing as society" and "there's no alternative"

It's how it went here and look where it's left us.

If I was confronted with a government with no ideas as to how to create jobs suited to my skills and aspirations, that tried to tax me on my (already taxed) income earned abroad, and was heavily into sticking its reactionary dogma in my face, damn right I'd want to kick them out of office.

I suggest, deep down, that you would too.

Anyway I vigorously disagree that wanting to follow a more free-market approach is inherently selfish. Yes it typically leads to greater inequality, but the most pressing problem in poland is poverty in absolute terms, which I think a free market approach has a good chance of addressing.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Anyway I vigorously disagree that wanting to follow a more free-market approach is inherently selfish. Yes it typically leads to greater inequality, but the most pressing problem in poland is poverty in absolute terms, which I think a free market approach has a good chance of addressing.

Really? And tell me, if that doesn't work out, will the people who benefit say so, or will they say "fuck you" to the people who are worse off as a result?

 

[Belushi]

I spoke to a friend in Lodz about the elections yesterday, he usully supports the Social Democrats but voted Civic Platform this time, as did all his friends and family, the priority was just to get Law and Justice out.

 

[biff curtains]

Yeah a UK based friend of mine who is left of the current Social Democrats said she voted for the Platform out of desperation. She knows she'll probably regret it but...