Poker

[ymu]

Fuck that for a laugh

I've never really played cash before, and tournies were doing my box in towards the end of last year. So I thought I'd give this a bash, learn some bankroll management etc.

Tournies do my nut in. 7 hours and you win your buyin back. Urgh.

Mind you, the swings in cash games can be pretty nasty.

I lost a stack with AA 250bb deep last night. Some muppet called my 4bet for 20% of the effective stacks with 77 and managed to hit a set on the raggy ass flop.

It's not quite that bad. You might play for hours and only get your buy-in back, but occasionally you win 10 or 30 times your buy-in back. (And fairly often, you'll get knocked out early, further improving the hourly rate.)

STTs are also a lot quicker, and easier to multi-table than cash, and they've been mathematically solved, so if you bother to study you will be profitable at lower stakes (at higher stakes, most everyone knows and can apply the solution, obv, so it gets tougher). They're also very good practice for MTT final tables.

I love cash, but with a tournament, my losses are limited to the one buy-in. Psychologically I am truly just playing with chips, not money. I'm much more susceptible to tilt with cash.

 

[heinous seamus]

Has anyone tried those double-or-nothing STTs? I played a few and cashed in them all I think but it's the most boring form of poker ever!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I know a guy who gave up his job and went full time playing online, as was winning thousands a month, but gave up and went back to normal work because it was becoming a bit of a headfuck.

 

[heinous seamus]

My biggest winning hand since I started keeping records is 83s, thanks to these two gems:

Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2009/01/18 2:02:46 ET
Table 'Pasiphae III' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: madmax65 ($8.65 in chips)
Seat 2: boggiman2007 ($6.95 in chips)
Seat 3: numptie ($14.25 in chips)
Seat 4: thisaintquin ($10.45 in chips)
Seat 5: NeillyAA ($18.50 in chips)
Seat 6: xxxxyxxxx ($10 in chips)
madmax65: posts small blind $0.05
boggiman2007: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to numptie[3c 8c]
numptie: calls $0.10
thisaintquin: calls $0.10
NeillyAA: raises $0.60 to $0.70
xxxxyxxxx: raises $1.50 to $2.20
madmax65: folds
boggiman2007: folds
numptie: calls $2.10 : - lol
thisaintquin: folds
NeillyAA: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [6c 9c Th]
numptie: checks
NeillyAA: checks
xxxxyxxxx: checks
*** TURN *** [6c 9c Th] [6s]
numptie: bets $8
NeillyAA: folds
xxxxyxxxx: folds
Uncalled bet ($8) returned to tambo84
numptie collected $6.55 from pot ($14.25 in chips)

and

Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2009/01/19 1:34:28 ET
Table 'Martir' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: FrtSpkndMn ($20 in chips)
Seat 2: Poopsmith500 ($10 in chips)
Seat 3: Homer_150984 ($5.65 in chips)
Seat 4: numptie ($10.40 in chips)
Seat 5: cw72 ($7.05 in chips)
Seat 6: totomoto ($10.90 in chips)
FrtSpkndMn: posts small blind $0.05
Poopsmith500: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to numptie [3d 8d]
Homer_150984: folds
numptie: raises $0.20 to $0.30
cw72: calls $0.30
totomoto: folds
totomoto leaves the table
FrtSpkndMn: calls $0.25
Poopsmith500: folds
*** FLOP *** [2d Qd 5d]
FrtSpkndMn: bets $0.70
numptie: raises $1.10 to $1.80
cw72: folds
FrtSpkndMn: raises $17.90 to $19.70 and is all-in
numptie: calls $8.30 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($9.60) returned to FrtSpkndMn
*** TURN *** [2d Qd 5d] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [2d Qd 5d Ks] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FrtSpkndMn: shows [Kd Qs] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
numptie: shows [3d 8d] (a flush, Queen high)
numptie collected $20.15 from pot

When tilt goes good!

 

[heinous seamus]

I know a guy who gave up his job and went full time playing online, as was winning thousands a month, but gave up and went back to normal work because it was becoming a bit of a headfuck.

No wonder. Being a live professional would be good I think, turning up wherever there is a tourney. Or just living in Vegas!

 

[kained&able]

How do people play unsuited mid ranged conector cards(so say 7/8 us)?

Obviously depends on position yadda yadda yadda.

But my opinion is try to limp into the flop and if two of the three are helpful stick some chips in. But if someone makes a move pre flop get the hell out of there and be very very scared about everything for the entire hand.

That about right?


dave

 

[ymu]

No wonder. Being a live professional would be good I think, turning up wherever there is a tourney. Or just living in Vegas!

Problem is, the rake is enormous in casinos, there's no rakeback (except in booze) and you can't multi-table. If you're willing to grind and don't set too low a probability of busto, you can make a living off a bankroll of £500 (£22 6-player STTs, 30 minutes each, as many tables as you're comfortable with, 15%+ ROI). You'd need at least £5k to make the same amount as you would single-tabling STTs, and that's before you factor in the cost of travel, travel-time, tips and any food/drinks that don't get comped.

How do people play unsuited mid ranged conector cards(so say 7/8 us)?

Obviously depends on position yadda yadda yadda.

But my opinion is try to limp into the flop and if two of the three are helpful stick some chips in. But if someone makes a move pre flop get the hell out of there and be very very scared about everything for the entire hand.

That about right?


dave

The problem with playing small connectors, suited or otherwise, is that they're drawing hands. If there's heat post-flop, you're not expecting to win with a pair of 8s, so you have to hit two pair or better. If it's worth continuing after the flop, a lot of your equity is going to be in drawing to a straight. If there's a straight draw on board, your opponents will charge you for it. Or they'll fold when you semi-bluff, or won't pay off when you hit the straight.

Suited connectors are better to play. Suitedness adds about 5% to your pre-flop odds, but it can also add massively to your post-flop odds. Even a back-door flush draw gives you the equivalent of one extra out, which can seriously tip the balance between drawing and folding. Plus, if you make a straight with 87, having a flush draw protects you somewhat against higher straights - you're often going to be on the sucker end of a straight even when you do hit it.

I think this is roughly what I do with it, in a few different types of game.

In a single table tournament, I'd never play them until we were very short-handed (in which case, your opponents matter a helluva lot more than the cards you play) or I had <10BB and it was folded to me on the button or in the SB (in which case, it's a possible open-push, but that depends on the table, stack sizes and prize structure).

Full ring cash, only if I got a free or cheap look in the blinds. Might limp behind if in late position if the table is weak/passive or there's a fuck load of limpers.

6MAX cash, I'd open raise it OTB quite a lot. Would open raise it in the SB most of the time. Might limp behind in late position.

Multi-table tournament, I mess about with it a bit more early on than I would in an STT (MTTs play like cash early, and like STTs late).

I rarely limp, and never open limp. I'd never play it for a raise pre-flop (unless it's HU in a tournament - but I don't fold anything much preflop HU ).

 

[DexterTCN]

I mainly play online tournies. $3-$10 rebuy, killer and freezeout.

I do quite well, won quite a few and good places (top3-5). Won 4 or 5 in the last year and dozens of FTs. You get between £20 and £500 fr a decent sized one.....I just take out everything annd leave whatever $100+ is left....of course that way I have top top up a fair amount when I bust out.

I only play one at a time, no multi-tabling. I like to keep notes on people, too.

3 final tables on Sunday, there. $200+.

Thinking about doing satellites into bigger money games, now.

I also love the STT turbos $2, $5, $10, $15 blinds up every 5 hands.

 

[radiohead]

anyone found a site where the touraments don't have really high rake?

prefer tournies to open tables but the mathematics don't work out with the amount of dead money.

 

[rapattaque]

I've know that a large percentage are losing players, but 99%?
Are you sure?

Of so, wow

edit: my db has 40% winners, 60% losers, but it's not that big and lots of those won like $4

TBH, i'm not sure it's 99%. But of the endless accounts i've looked at (hundreds, mebee thousands) I can scarcely remember any which are in credit. And if they are it's cos they've won big in a tournament rather than raked it in over time on the cash tables.

I have to add, i cheerfully resent poker cos my main job is working with our sportsbook and poker eats into that time, so I may well just be seeing what I want to see!

 

[rapattaque]

Most people are marginal losers after the rake. But it's a game of skill, so as long as you sit down with people who are less skilled at it than you are, you will win in the long-run. That's how come professional poker players exist - they're not all on a hot streak (although plenty come and go that are/were). It's a game where you can decide what odds to offer and whether or not to accept the odds offered to you. The skill is in accurately assessing the true odds and pricing your bets accordingly (and not playing against more skilled opponents).

The majority of players are playing for fun and not losing any more money than they'd spend on a night out. A very few are big losers with a real problem, and others are winning players there to pick up the dead money from the others. But even the winning players are working on just a 2-3% edge over the field, perhaps a little more on a juicy table and a little less on a tough one. It's definitely not a way to make easy money - most pros recommend spending about as much time studying as grinding to be successful.

Yes. This is about right.

 

[ymu]

I hate hate hate STTs with fixed numbers of hands per level. They get murderously fast later on.

I used to play 9 or 10 man regulars because I play tight in STTs and I preferred the slower blind levels, but then I discovered that 6MAX turbo STTs actually play at about the same number of hands per round because you start with so few people, and they're over in half the time, so you can play more tournaments per hour. The only downside is that less has been written about 6MAX, so you need to be able to adapt the principles from full table STTs. I've found that most people loosen up too much, so I pretty much stick to the same hand ranges for x off the button as I would at a full table, and then you just have to do the ICM calcs for 2 places instead of 3.

I'm also a single tabler. I love getting inside my opponents heads, and a significant part of my profits comes from knowing what that particular guy will do. If my attention has wandered for a few hands it feels weirdly like playing blind when I go back to it. Unsurprisingly, I'm a note-taker too.

My favourite hand was HU in an STT and it went like this:

He min-raised OOP pre-flop, I called with J2o. He bet 2BB on an A-high raggy flop, I called (with nothing). He bet 4BB on a nothing turn, I called (with nothing). He bet 8BB on a nothing river, I raised AI for 15BB with J-high nothing. He folded.

I'd seen him use the exact same betting pattern three times before, and on the two occasions the cards got shown he had nothing; the other time he folded to a raise. I'd already exploited it once with a turn raise, so I thought fuck it, let's take him to the river. He folded with about 5BB in his stack.

 

[ymu]

anyone found a site where the touraments don't have really high rake?

prefer tournies to open tables but the mathematics don't work out with the amount of dead money.

10% is standard (£11 STT = £10 to the prize pool, £1 to the rake). That's very beatable at low stakes. It's often 20% for the really low stakes - still beatable, but just isn't worth paying, IMO.

Check how much rake you're paying per hour in cash games and compare it to the rake you'd pay for one or two tournies per hour. Assuming similar bankroll management policies, I'd be surprised if they were very different. I haven't reinstalled PokerTracker yet so I can't check my stats.

Gutshot have a VIP system where you gain points for playing (every tournament or raked pot, IIRC). You can cash these in for a small amount, or invest them in some VIP tournaments (which include £1-2 optional rebuys/add-ons). I was way up on the rake just on these.


Oh, and there's loads of dead money in low stakes STTs. You just have to learn how to spot and exploit it.

 

[fractionMan]

How do people play unsuited mid ranged conector cards(so say 7/8 us)?

Obviously depends on position yadda yadda yadda.

But my opinion is try to limp into the flop and if two of the three are helpful stick some chips in. But if someone makes a move pre flop get the hell out of there and be very very scared about everything for the entire hand.

That about right?


dave

I generally play 6max cash so I'll give my take on it from that perspective.

If it's folded or limped to me in the cutoff or button, I'll raise just about any suited connectors. On the button I'll raise any suited one and two gappers too. UTG and UTG+1 I'll occasionally raise hands like 78s, mainly to balance my range. In the blinds I'll happily raise 78s in the SB if it's folded to me.

I rarely call though and never limp. I'll occasionally call with 78s OTB. Usually when there's already two people in the pot or I can count on one of the blinds calling too.

I'll 3bet or squeeze with suited connectors in certain situations. Usually when I've got position against tags who are opening too many pots. I'm generally hoping for a fold, but if I don't get one I've still got a hand with reasonable equity and can represent bigger hands later on.

If you're playing suited connectors just to hit a flop then you''ll lose money with them. You need to play them both for their actual equity and the fold equity that comes with position. By raising preflop it's easy to represent an A on an A high flop. If you limp, get raised and call you've lost the inititive in the hand and are just hoping to flop 2pair+ or a good draw, which hapens too rarely to make it a profitable thing to do.

 

[heinous seamus]

Oh well there goes my spin-up, from 160-0 in about 20 minutes lol.

 

[fractionMan]

doh!

 

[heinous seamus]

There's a lot to be said for crazy tiltpoker.

 

[fractionMan]

B2B No Limit Hold'em Cashgame
Blinds: €1,00 / €2,00
Players: 6
B2B Hand Converter from One Of A Kind

Button (€146,90)
SB (€54,90)
BB (€250,95)
UTG (€212,55)
MP - Hero (€200,00)
CO (€161,60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A:spade:, Q:heart:
Hero raises to €7,00, 1 fold, Button calls €7,00, 1 fold, BB calls €5,00

Flop: (€22,00) 3:club:, A:club:, A:diamond: (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets €14,00, Button calls €14,00, 1 fold

Turn: (€50,00) A:heart: (3 players)
Hero checks, Button goes all-in for €125,90, Hero calls €125,90

River: (€301,80) Q:club: (3 players - 1 All-In)

Final pot: €301,80

Hero shows A:spade:, Q:heart: (four of a kind, aces)
Button shows K:club:, 5:club: (a flush, ace high)

Outcome: Hero wins €301,80

lol

how not to play your nut flush draw

 

[mhendo]

Hero shows A:spade:, Q:heart: (four of a kind, aces)
Button shows K:club:, 5:club: (a flush, ace high)

Outcome: Hero wins €301,80

lol

how not to play your nut flush draw

That guy was insane. Sure, after the flop it was probably worth staying in on a flush draw. But after the turn, with three aces on the board, i don't understand his reasoning.

When that queen came down on the river, he got his flush. But he could be beaten with a 3, a Q, an A, or any pocket pair. That's just too many outs to go all-in against.

 

[fractionMan]

Here's a hand from yesterday:

200nl 6max, with 200euro effective stacks.

Folded to me on the button, I raise to 7, SB re-pops me to 23, I bump it up to 58 or something, he shoves, I call.

He's a semi-regular tag.

What are our hands?

 

[heinous seamus]

QQ v A5

or

AA v AA

 

[heinous seamus]

I definitely fancy you both had AA and he caught a flush.

 

[ymu]

Here's a hand from yesterday:

200nl 6max, with 200euro effective stacks.

Folded to me on the button, I raise to 7, SB re-pops me to 23, I bump it up to 58 or something, he shoves, I call.

He's a semi-regular tag.

What are our hands?

How have you been playing, and what does he think of you?

 

[kained&able]

imposisble to tell from that information.

But you'd have to presume one was on something like a couple of picture cards suited and one was on a a pair of pictures.


Either that or one was a complete idiot and is on a/9 or something.


dave

 

[heinous seamus]

I wanna change my answer to both low/mid suited connectors

 

[ymu]

I wanna change my answer to both low/mid suited connectors

Not played much cash recently, and never higher than 100NL, and fM's lot do seem to go AI pre-flop more than I've seen, but here's what I think...

fM could be raising there with a very wide range, and villain knows it, so he could be re-raising with a pretty wide range himself. But he's in the SB, and we're told he's a TAG, so he probably won't be very weak unless he's mixing it up a bit.

When fM 4-bets he's saying he has a real hand, but he's also saying that he knows villain could reraise light-ish here, so it doesn't have to be a huge hand. It's a smallish 4-bet, but it's still going to make the pot very large and limit play post-flop, so I'm thinking he has a pretty big hand.

When villain pushes, he's probably got a very strong hand - although he could be calling bullshit on a smallish 4-bet if fM has been LAGging it up in position. I'm not sure AA pushes here - with only one opponent and not much more than the pot left in the stacks, there's not much need. KK would. QQ probably would. JJ is too busy throwing up to know where it's at.

fM calls the push getting a little worse than 2:1 pot odds (140ish to win 260ish). He needs to win >35% to be profitable. He doesn't have to be ahead of villain's range to make the call, but villain's range is dominated by big pairs and big Aces so he should have a very good hand.

I'd put villain on AK, JJ-KK, fM on AKs, QQ+?

Prolly way out. It was 53o vs T7s wasn't it?

 

[fractionMan]

How have you been playing, and what does he think of you?

Well he shoved with 99 so I guess he thought I was being too aggro pre-flop.

After the hand he justified it by saying I was 3betting 9% of the time, although how he worked that out is beyond me. (my site doesn't support pokertracker3 and pokertracker2 doesn't have that stat). I don't think I 3bet anywhere near that much, although I do raise preflop 18% of the time this is not unusual. Also, I didn't 3bet in the hand, he did. I 4bet to 58 or so and my 4betting range is much tighter than my 3bet one.

I had KK btw, and obviously lost to a set, which is why I remember the hand.

 

[fractionMan]

Not played much cash recently, and never higher than 100NL, and fM's lot do seem to go AI pre-flop more than I've seen, but here's what I think...

fM could be raising there with a very wide range, and villain knows it, so he could be re-raising with a pretty wide range himself. But he's in the SB, and we're told he's a TAG, so he probably won't be very weak unless he's mixing it up a bit.

When fM 4-bets he's saying he has a real hand, but he's also saying that he knows villain could reraise light-ish here, so it doesn't have to be a huge hand. It's a smallish 4-bet, but it's still going to make the pot very large and limit play post-flop, so I'm thinking he has a pretty big hand.

When villain pushes, he's probably got a very strong hand - although he could be calling bullshit on a smallish 4-bet if fM has been LAGging it up in position. I'm not sure AA pushes here - with only one opponent and not much more than the pot left in the stacks, there's not much need. KK would. QQ probably would. JJ is too busy throwing up to know where it's at.

fM calls the push getting a little worse than 2:1 pot odds (140ish to win 260ish). He needs to win >35% to be profitable. He doesn't have to be ahead of villain's range to make the call, but villain's range is dominated by big pairs and big Aces so he should have a very good hand.

I'd put villain on AK, JJ-KK, fM on AKs, QQ+?

Prolly way out. It was 53o vs T7s wasn't it?

That's a very good analysis, which is why I was suprised when he turned up with nines. Tens or jacks I could just about understand but not nines.

I've not done the equity calcs, but I'm definitely calling his push with AK, QQ+ and my 4bet range contains so little else (other than bluffs) I can't see how his 3bet is profitable unless I'm 4bet bluffing a lot. I'm going to flat in position rather than 4bet with most pockets vs his 3bet

 

[internetstalker]

That's a very good analysis, which is why I was suprised when he turned up with nines. Tens or jacks I could just about understand but not nines.

I've not done the equity calcs, but I'm definitely calling his push with AK, QQ+ and my 4bet range contains so little else (other than bluffs) I can't see how his 3bet is profitable unless I'm 4bet bluffing a lot. I'm going to flat in position rather than 4bet with most pockets vs his 3bet

At the end of the day you want the sucker to call with 99


all day long, so one shouldn't moan about bad players

7 time out of 8 your gonna do him for all his bucks the other 1 out of 8 you are gonna lose!

If someone can't take getting unlucky every now and then shouldn't play the game I'm sure you'd agree!

thats poker innit!

 

[fractionMan]

At the end of the day you want the sucker to call with 99


all day long, so one shouldn't moan about bad players

7 time out of 8 your gonna do him for all his bucks the other 1 out of 8 you are gonna lose!

If someone can't take getting unlucky every now and then shouldn't play the game I'm sure you'd agree!

thats poker innit!

Oh yeah, I'm more than happy to know other regs are willing to shove 99 into me, I just didn't realise my table image was so crazy