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Points on your license.

Well there ya go they've got it covered every which way . . .wankers.


Astral I'm using this one.

http://snooper.intranetics.co.uk/snooper-evolution-r.htm

I got the radar attachement as well just to keep myself covered.

However pretty much all the info I managed to gen up came from here

http://www.radardetectors.co.uk/

They have a wicked little tables which shows you what covers what, a model comparison and you can also check out all the different types of speed trap and what detects them
 
Radar said:
Just go for a GPS based system, IFAIK not illegal as its just a passive box with an attached GPS. Or, and this one's slightly controversial, keep a better lookout ahead :p

Not much good for the vans though, which are the only real risk IME, much better to rely on people flashing their headlights around our way. If you can see the van it's already nicked you.

detective-boy said:
Mobile speed enforcement can take place legally anywhere. The police mobile speed enforcement units do operate everywhere (though usually they concentrate on problem areas because, like everything else, they prioritise their time).

They have to display a sign though iirc, although I'm not sure how far ahead and for how long a stretch of road it is deemed to be in effect.

Anyway, I picked up three tickets in 6 months having never had one in 18 years, all in clear and relatively low-traffic conditions at sub-90mph on motorways/dual carriageways. I wrang up the unit and to point all this out and was very polite to the woman I spoke to who advised me to put it to them in writing, which I duly did and they dropped one of them. Worth a try, depending on the circumstances.
 
ICB said:
They have to display a sign though iirc, although I'm not sure how far ahead and for how long a stretch of road it is deemed to be in effect.
As far as I know the signing requirements are also all tied in with the speed camera partnerships and keeping the fines money. I can't see that there is any legal requirement for signs because any mobile police patrol, marked or unmarked, or foot patrol (uniformed) can operate speed detection and enforcement equipment at any time, anywhere.
 
DB you have said they can operate from anywhere. I'm taking it that with that you are reffering to patrol patrol cars, police operated guns etc stuff like that. Which i did know about. However TBH these dont seem to be as common thses days and its seems to be the camera partnership "talivans" as I've seen em being called that seem to be taking the most money off motorists.

Now with these is there not some ruling about entrapment etc and as such they cannot operate without signs ? cannot be unmarked vans ? stuff like that
 
I'm going on what my Mum's partner was told by an officer when he went for re-education as part of the deal for reducing the punishment when he was nicked. There's also supposed to be something about the number of deaths in a given stretch over a given period, but again I'm not sure of the scope of this, whether it only applies to fixed cameras, etc.

I believe DB's assertion that it is different for the police themselves but I've seen two of them speed checking in the last 2 years whereas I've seen about 100 vans in that time.
 
djbombscare said:
Now with these is there not some ruling about entrapment etc and as such they cannot operate without signs ? cannot be unmarked vans ? stuff like that
You are confusing guidance and policy with legal defences.

There is no legal defence to a charge of speeding just because the camera was the wrong colour, the camera signs were not right or the mobile vehicle used was unmarked.

There is a Code of Practice for Speed Camera Partnerships which they abide by (as I have said, if they do not then they do not get to keep any revenue raised). It is referred to here: http://www.dorsetsafetycameras.org.uk/camera_sites.htm .

But it contains this disclaimer:

Compliance with these rules has no bearing on the enforcement of offences detected by the use of safety cameras. Non-compliance with these rules and guidelines by a partnership, or representative of a partnership, does not provide any mitigation of, or defence for, an alleged offence committed under current UK law.

You MAY succeed in getting a prosecution thrown out if you prove non-compliance with the guidance but there is no guarantee. The partnership themselves may abandon it if they agree there has been a significant breach and they believe it is in the public interest to do so. A court MAY use s.78 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to rule the evidence as inadmissible if they conclude it has been obtained "unfairly".

The issue of entrapment (agent provocatuer in legal terms) does not arise. For it to do so you would have to demonstrate some active encouragement to speed (e.g. an enforcement vehicle constantly tailgating you to push you over the limit and then nicking you or a marked vehicle exceeding the speed limit and a fixed site then nicking all the cars following it at the same speed). Even if it did, it is no absolute defence in any event.
 
djbombscare said:
I dunno there just has to be a number of accidents recorded there over a certain period of time which constitutes them using a mobile camera van.

I'll see what i can find. .
From what I understand of the rules, it's something like this: a camera (mobile or fixed) can be placed ANYWHERE. Period.

If the camera is not placed in an "approved" location, or the area is not blanketed with camera warning signs, or (if fixed) it's not covered in yellow reflective paint, then the "Safety" Camera Partnership can't grab the revenues for their own pockets - the fines have to go to the Treasury. But that's the only difference.

SOmeone down here is trying to appeal a ticket for just this reason (it's all mobile vans here), and he's going to get screwed...
 
djbombscare said:
Now with these is there not some ruling about entrapment etc and as such they cannot operate without signs ? cannot be unmarked vans ? stuff like that
That's changing too. The govt wants to allow non-hi-vis cameras and unsigned ones, and there's talk of the talivans going "stealth" and being painted up as J Bloggs, Painters & Decoraters, or whatever.

Only even J Bloggs wouldn't park in some of the most STUPID places that some of these talivans get to, so they'll still give themselves away... :)
 
djbombscare said:
Now with these is there not some ruling about entrapment etc and as such they cannot operate without signs ?

detective-boy said:
You MAY succeed in getting a prosecution thrown out if you prove non-compliance with the guidance but there is no guarantee. The partnership themselves may abandon it if they agree there has been a significant breach and they believe it is in the public interest to do so. A court MAY use s.78 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to rule the evidence as inadmissible if they conclude it has been obtained "unfairly".


If the partnerships are run by anyone like the arrogant asses who head our local "partnership," then they will nore or less behave like they like.

A few months back, they were caught operating from sites they had no buisness to use - eg on double-yellows but determined to keep going anyway.

http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.u...uleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

They were eventually forced to bin the tickets tho! :D

As for signing, the two popular sites near me are signed but the signs themselves are often placed right behind a tree or beside a junction where you could easilly get the impression they cover another road altogether!

As for Traffic, they have a wide variety of marked & unmarked vehicles & ply their trade mercilessly in all sorts of places, even using a rented flat to hide a camera one stretch of road. The ultimate indignity must have been being pulled by their custom VW-bus tho! A now defunct local car-board was hacked to pieces after a joke thread on "lets identify their vehicles" soon turned-up photos & details of nearly every unmarked car in the city, including the ones in the garage that hadn't even been on the road yet! :o :D
 
pogofish said:
A now defunct local car-board was hacked to pieces after a joke thread on "lets identify their vehicles" soon turned-up photos & details of nearly every unmarked car in the city, including the ones in the garage that hadn't even been on the road yet! :o :D
Just a word of warning for anyone tempted to do something like this - make sure the unmarked cars you are outing are just roads policing cars. There aren't usually that many to be honest - the vast majority of unmarked vehicles used by the police are either for routine CID duties (and detectives hate roads policing officers (black rats as they are known in the Met) even more than the average member of the public!!) or for surveillance.

Serious organisaed criminals (e.g. armed robbers) love getting details of surveillance vehicles and I am sure you wouldn't deliberately want to fuck up something at that level.
 
detective-boy said:
Serious organisaed criminals (e.g. armed robbers) love getting details of surveillance vehicles and I am sure you wouldn't deliberately want to fuck up something at that level.
Another way in which, as the IAM reported in a press release, this ludicrously overzealous way in which speeding offences are being enforced serves to diminish the relationship between the general public and the police: by alienating themselves so comprehensively from the motorist, these camera partnerships could actually jeopardise the very sort of police operation that most citizens would have no doubts about supporting.

Something has got to give...
 
detective-boy said:
make sure the unmarked cars you are outing are just roads policing cars. There aren't usually that many to be honest -

That was the original intention but I have to say we were somewhat taken aback by the speed with which the rest of the vehicles poured-in. :eek:

detective-boy said:
and detectives hate roads policing officers (black rats as they are known in the Met) even more than the average member of the public!!) or for surveillance.

Probably not least because anywhere like here, a distinct divide appeared between the unmarked & traffic cars. Traffic had clearly been favoured by this force & had a lot of very nice top-model cars, whilst the detectives had a lot of little runabouts & 3rd-hand looking rusty Astras, corsas etc! :D

detective-boy said:
Serious organisaed criminals (e.g. armed robbers) love getting details of surveillance vehicles and I am sure you wouldn't deliberately want to fuck up something at that level.

TBH, after the way the police conducted themselves, relationships were getting very strained & we didn't care that much. Particularly because the patronising cunt of an inspector in charge frequently shot-off his mouth before putting his brain in gear, the high-handed way they went about operating an exclusion order (often well outside its terms), press coverage that frequently violated the PCC code & the antics of a local councillor who clearly only thought of the collumn-inches for himself rather than the interests of his area.

We won in the end tho & the proposed restrictions were buried!
 
djbombscare said:
I dunno there just has to be a number of accidents recorded there over a certain period of time which constitutes them using a mobile camera van.

I'll see what i can find. .


Don't wish to be controversial - i drive at least 108 miles a day, and don't hang around, but 'just'? For the sake of presenting the counterpoint - surely they're trying to slow people down to prevent more people getting injured/dying?
 
pembrokestephen said:
Another way in which, as the IAM reported in a press release, this ludicrously overzealous way in which speeding offences are being enforced serves to diminish the relationship between the general public and the police: by alienating themselves so comprehensively from the motorist, these camera partnerships could actually jeopardise the very sort of police operation that most citizens would have no doubts about supporting.

Something has got to give...

I'm with you here/ I have no respect for the police in the UK at all. Nothing but a huge gang of dis-organised wankers who cannot do the job they are employed to do. Ok so the blame for this can lie with whoever.

Needless to say they dont show up when you've been robbed just give you an insurnace number send you leaflets etc saying "so your a victim of crime. . .heres the Top 100 crime stats on how were improving as seen on channel 4 last christmas" They're just shit we pay for a service that they cannot provide. In fact the only thing they could do well was stop innocent motorists and piss them off cos the fact that they are driving at 1am and no-one else is on the road may mean they're pissed up. I got stopped 3 times within the space of a mile one night. It got to the point where I got out the car and went dont you lot use your fucking radios, waving a the three day provider at em.

And of course there the obligatory knicking speeding motorists. . which now seem to have been outsoruced to camera partnerships. Gotta admit these is one thing I wouldnt; mind if they outsourced it to bangalore.

OK so letshave a look.

Catching real fucking criminals that beat up old ladies etc - they do very badly, would involve some real investigation cost a bit of cash you can only really do one at a time and would raise fuck all in revenue

Knicking motorists - They do well, no investigation needed as the can Id you through a number plate, can do a shit load in an hour multiple time as you dont really need a person there. So costs fuck all and rasies shit loads of cash.

Fuck me I dont think thats too hard to understand. Im not saying that motorists are not guilty far from it but it just seem preety fucking obvious why they excel in one area and not the other
 
BassJunkie said:
Don't wish to be controversial - i drive at least 108 miles a day, and don't hang around, but 'just'? For the sake of presenting the counterpoint - surely they're trying to slow people down to prevent more people getting injured/dying?


Hey I like people being contraversial.

Ok this side of the argument INO is flawed. Its not about slowing vehicles down. Its about raising revenue. I've explianed this numerous times on another thread which has dropped off onto page 2 now so http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=166628

Basically a lot of people on this thread have been over a couple of times on that thread so I dont really want to repeat it again and I'm at awork and I've done sod all this week:D

But a basic upshot is that I got 2 tickets in the space of weeks from mobile camera vans that were in 30 zones that weren't signed as 30 mph. 1 was a dual carriageway and the other was open countryside. If they wanted to slow people down for safety they would sign them as 30's and not leave it up to guess work.
 
djbombscare said:
Catching real fucking criminals that beat up old ladies etc - they do very badly, would involve some real investigation cost a bit of cash you can only really do one at a time and would raise fuck all in revenue
The clear-up rates for murder and serious assaults are actually quite high (with the exception of rape).

The policing of volume crime (including crime prevention activity such as designing out crime as well as reactive activity) has led to pretty sustained reductions in crimes like theft of motor vehicles and burglary.

But they have definitely lost their way in the policing of the streets, leadiing to increases in violence, much of which would be deterred by a stong and interventionist police presence late in the evening and at weekends (i.e. when alcohol is about).
 
Sorry mate I dont believe any of it. 30 years of political sleaze, bollox and spin makes it all water off a ducks back to me. So I'd arther go with my own experience which seems to be backed up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5127320.stm

Independant audits etc say they're crap but the police's own statistics and govt statistics say they're good and getting better. :confused:

I can get a ruler to say my cock is 6ft long ya know

Spot the similarities. . .
 
There was a partnership van near my work this morning & sure enough, it was signed but:

a: The sign was where they could be pretty certain it would be obscured by parked cars

b: Was tied to the lamppost in the middle so it had folded down on itself - you couldn't read it anyway!
 
Sod hiding behind trees etc

By outsourcing to the US the latest weapon in the war against road terrorism.

f11704ha5.jpg
 
Just thought I'd add my experiences to this thread.

In December last year, my car was photographed by a camera van, allegedly doing 40mph in a 30mph area.

There ensued an exchange of correspondence, based around the identification of the driver - the photograph provided by the SCP failed to provide any kind of conclusive evidence as to whether it was my partner or me driving, and I was told by the SCP in correspondence that it was up to me to "nominate a driver". In the end, this is what I did, and I sent in the form, completed with my details, and endorsed "Nominated Driver".

That was the last I heard from them until a summons appeared, calling me to appear at Carmarthen Magistrates' Court, to answer two charges, viz. one of speeding, and one of failing to provide the details of the driver at the time, per S.172 of the Road Traffic Act.

Feeling somewhat bloody-minded about the whole business, I decided to contest both charges: the speeding one on the basis that a) I didn't know who was actually driving when the offence was committed, and b) that I doubted very much that either of us had at any point passed that point at a speed of 40mph (though I will accept, privately, that there is a possibility, certainly on one of the occasions when I was driving, that it may have been in excess of 30mph). My reason for b) was ostensibly in order that if at some subsequent point, it is shown in court that these cameras are unreliable, I would not have been able to appeal any conviction if I had pleaded guilty.

My response to the S.172 charge was, naturally, that I felt I had not only exercised due diligence in attempting to identify the driver, but had in any case finally nominated myself, thereby providing them with someone whom they could have prosecuted or given a fixed penalty to. It appears, at the pre-trial hearing, that the basis of their prosecution for this offence was that they claimed not to have received my "Nominated Driver" form.

So that was that. My solicitor though I was taking a bit of a risk, but took the case.

On Friday, I was due to appear for trial at the same magistrates' court. I wrote a witness statement, as did my partner, and we attended at court. I had not requested that the police witnesses attend, since I was not disputing the facts as they had claimed them in their written submissions. Quite frankly, I think I was flying a kite, and didn't seriously expect to come out of court with an acquittal: my best guess was that they'd drop the S.172 and hit me with the speeding. My solicitor was not so optimistic - based on the wording of some of the letters I had written, he thought they had a pretty good case for arguing that I had failed to honour my S.172 obligations in a timely manner.

We were both rather surprised when the prosecutor announced that they wouldn't be pursuing the speeding charge, but would be going forward with the S.172. This was good, because it meant my partner would not be put through the ordeal of giving evidence.

The prosecution case opened with a brief summary of the exchange of correspondence. Most notable was a factually incorrect claim that the SCP had had to send me some kind of reminder following the initial Notice of Intended Prosecution, and - amazingly - a tacit assumption that they had received my final completed form identifying ("nominating") me as the driver.

I was called to give evidence, and found myself on the receiving end of a very aggressive cross-examination by the prosecution. However, she failed to pick up on the errors I'd made in my early correspondence (which could have, at the very least, been used to claim that I had acted in bad faith), and persisted in the view that they had received my form (which, as far as I could see, rather undermined the whole idea that I had committed an offence under S.172). She seemed very keen to have me read out most of the correspondence, which suited me just fine: I don't have a problem with reading out loud (though many people do, and it was my solicitor's and partner's views that this was probably just another attempt at intimidation, which backfired), and read out my correspondence in a clear and assertive voice; the SCP's I read in something of a monotone :)

At one point, when she was for some reason under the misapprehension that she was suddenly in the business of trying to prove the speeding offence (which, dear reader, you will recall had been dropped), she asked me "Is your partner a big woman?" (in reference, I presume, to a vague silhouette in the photograph taken by the camera van). I addressed the magistrates and said "I don't think that she would particularly appreciate being described like that". Two of them cracked their faces a bit at that: I got the impression that the prosecutor's manner was earning me a fair amount of sympathy: she was giving it large with the "I put it to you, Mister Pembroke Stephen that..."

Somewhat later, she "put it to me" that, as an (honorary) employee of the NHS, I could have photocopied a form that they had on the back of a letter I wished to keep, rather than sending in my details in another letter. I expressed the obvious level of appalledness at the idea that a lawyer was, in open court, advising me to commit an offence of fraud against our nation's beloved health service. I don't think that hurt my case, either.

So, after a messy and bruising, not to mention rather offensive cross-examination, during which my solicitor told me he was inclined to intervene on a number of occasions, but felt that I was holding up just fine, and that she was probably doing her case no good, the case finished, the magistrates retired, and we all wandered off for 5 minutes to chill out. Our friend Perry Maisonette was busy looking daggers all round and generally not looking like a happy bunny.

Back came the magistrates, and announced that they felt I had exercised due diligence, and were acquitting me on the S.172.

Yay.

Perry Maisonette, meanwhile, wants a written copy of the beaks' decision, and hinted that she might appeal. My solicitor then hit the magistrates with a request for full costs. Which was granted, so I get back the £164 I already paid him.

Sometimes, just sometimes, it's nice to kick back. It's even nicer when you win.
 
This morning, a new 20mph limit came-in over the entire city centre area. Naturally enforcement vans are apparently out in force.

The signs however are not - I saw a few repeaters but that was it. :rolleyes:
 
astral said:
I've just picked up another three, for doing 45 in a 40 zone (yes I know it's all my own fault)
I've never heard of anyone being done for going such a small margin over the limit before. You are allowed to go 10% over for inaccurate speedometers. This brings you up to 44mph so you were only going 1mph faster. That's ridiculous!
 
pembrokestephen said:
My reason for b) was ostensibly in order that if at some subsequent point, it is shown in court that these cameras are unreliable, I would not have been able to appeal any conviction if I had pleaded guilty.

Back came the magistrates, and announced that they felt I had exercised due diligence, and were acquitting me on the S.172.
Good result - shows it's worth taking them on - they really are NOT very good at all when it comes to Court (and parking attendants are even worse - they are absolute shite at giving evidence) so, if it is wrong, challenge, challenge, challenge all the way. They rely on people not being bothered and giving up.

And, as an aside, a plea of guilty would not necessarily have prevented an appeal if you had pleaded guilty - you would be able to apply for the conviction to be overturned if evidence came to light of the unreliability of equipment which, at the time of your plea, had been considered reliable.
 
Maggot said:
I've never heard of anyone being done for going such a small margin over the limit before. You are allowed to go 10% over for inaccurate speedometers. This brings you up to 44mph so you were only going 1mph faster. That's ridiculous!
What I understand to be the situations is that the Association of Chief Police Officers issued guidelines suggesting that prosecutions should be on the basis of 10%+2mph over the posted speed limit, as this obviated the risk of a defence being mounted on the basis of accuracy of either the car's speedometer, or possible minor inaccuracies in camera technology (not sure you'd be able to be absolutely certain, for example, that the graticule on the road for a GATSO camera had been painted to very much less than 10% accuracy, for example...)

But they are perfectly entitled to prosecute if you're doing (say) 41mph in a 40 and they think they can make a conviction stick.
 
Maggot said:
You are allowed to go 10% over for inaccurate speedometers.
A common msapprehension. You are NOT allowed to go over the posted limit at all - 41mph in a 40mph limit is an offence for which you could be prosecuted in theory.

BUT, in order to provide drivers with a reasonable margin for error (including the inaccuracies in speedometers which, incidentally, are now much more reliable than they used to be) there is a pretty standard policy not to prosecute if the speed is less than 10% over the limit. In some force areas it is even more (I have seen a policy of 10% plus a further 5mph). But policy is not law, and you could be successfully prosecuted at any speed over the limit. Being an absolute offence (i.e. no intention needed) the fact that you didn't realise you were speeding because your speedometer was wrong would be entirely irrelevant.

Your prosecution was within the terms of the policy. I have heard of prosecutions at 45mph in a 40 limit before.
 
detective-boy said:
Good result - shows it's worth taking them on - they really are NOT very good at all when it comes to Court (and parking attendants are even worse - they are absolute shite at giving evidence) so, if it is wrong, challenge, challenge, challenge all the way. They rely on people not being bothered and giving up.

And, as an aside, a plea of guilty would not necessarily have prevented an appeal if you had pleaded guilty - you would be able to apply for the conviction to be overturned if evidence came to light of the unreliability of equipment which, at the time of your plea, had been considered reliable.
I was basing that view on the situation where they (my local SCP) have placed cameras in incorrect locations, or failed to ensure proper speed limit signage: there was a fairly well-documented case about such a camera on the M4 a year or two back, and the upshot seemed to be that people who had simply filled in the form and taken the fixed penalty were not able to demand their fines back; people who'd contested it in court could. But I could have misinterpreted what I read, or my source might have been incorrect...

But it was a good result, and one which my solicitor seemed very pleased with: he's asked my permission to report the case on his website :D (link to follow ;) )
 
pembrokestephen said:
(not sure you'd be able to be absolutely certain, for example, that the graticule on the road for a GATSO camera had been painted to very much less than 10% accuracy, for example...)
Would be pretty irrelevant if you did prove the road markings were inaccurate by more than 10%. They are a secondary means of roughly confirming the actual speed measurement made by the camera equipment itself. They are not the primary evidence themselves.
 
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