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PM Boris Johnson - monster thread for a monster twat

8ball

Hetero Sapiens
It's not difficult. A socialist believes in the social, rather than individual, ownership and control of the means of production. Within that broad definition...
It's certainly a broad definition. I think I'm probably not well read enough to grasp the exact limits of what this covers.
 

8ball

Hetero Sapiens
Indeed - for me liberal includes being against sexism, homophobia, racism, ... That's why it confuses me somewhat that there's such a hatred of liberals on urban.
From what I've read on the forums it seems to come down to history. To some extent a series of historical accidents.
 

two sheds

Least noticed poster 2007
It was surely Russia's history that created Stalin though. Hundreds of years of absolute monarchy and the collapse of that empire, followed by a world war that exposed all of Europe to violence never previously witnessed. Those are the forces that would have shaped what was to come in Russia, not the idea of socialism.
Interesting, yes fair point. Not totally reassuring though, since he could only do what he did because of the absolute power he gained under the system that allowed it.
 

ItWillNeverWork

Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Interesting, yes fair point. Not totally reassuring though, since he could only do what he did because of the absolute power he gained under the system that allowed it.
But absolute power is the opposite of socialism. Socialism is about democratising our working environment and removing the absolute power of capital to turn us into commodities.
 

seventh bullet

red mullet
In which case it becomes somewhat meaningless. If we're describing people like Nixon and Johnson as liberals then no, I wouldn't count myself as *that sort* of liberal.
Sure, but they were though. Like not all 'socialists' are Stalinist I suppose. When the actual Stalinists of Southeast Asia were fighting US liberalism's attempt to control resources and territory to expand markets confetti bombs weren't being dropped on people. The CIA didn't tickle people into laughing blobs of jelly in their torture chambers.
 

8ball

Hetero Sapiens
Aye, right enough, it comes down to the argument of acceptable collateral damage, something I have difficulty in getting my head around.
I understand it well enough. It's about what collateral damage *you* can accept. "You" being someone pulling the trigger from thousands of miles away, not knowing anyone involved, in a culture that refers to the remains of people blown apart by your missiles as "bug splats".
 

seventh bullet

red mullet
Interesting, yes fair point. Not totally reassuring though, since he could only do what he did because of the absolute power he gained under the system that allowed it.
It breaks with Tsarism in some significant ways. He could only do so through a modern political party. Stalinism is a perhaps marginal variation of western modernity. I would say there was a synthesis rather than a Russian 'tradition' being the sole 'cause' of Stalinist dictatorship. It shared broadly understood top-down social developments of the 'west' at the time although there is the degree of coercion used for such ends, the extreme authoritarianism and violence.
 

coley

Well-Known Member
Sure, but they were though. Like not all 'socialists' are Stalinist I suppose. When the actual Stalinists of Southeast Asia were fighting US liberalism's attempt to control resources and territory to expand markets confetti bombs weren't being dropped on people. The CIA didn't tickle people into laughing blobs of jelly in their torture chambers.
Most people I know who describe themselves as 'socialists' abhor the policies of the USSR and those of the majority ( republican policies) of the US, and more importantly,those of the current UK Tory party.
Mao isn't particularly popular either, amongst those of a truly socialist bent.
 

seventh bullet

red mullet
Most people I know who describe themselves as 'socialists' abhor the policies of the USSR and those of the majority ( republican policies) of the US, and more importantly,those of the current UK Tory party.
Mao isn't particularly popular either, amongst those of a truly socialist bent.
Mao was more lenient towards landlords after their expropriation than Stalin. Rubbish can be transformed into something useful rather than just gotten rid of and buried.

The Vietnamese Communists (Soviet and Chinese-derived politics) deserved what they got I take it? And those in Indonesia?
 

coley

Well-Known Member
I understand it well enough. It's about what collateral damage *you* can accept. "You" being someone pulling the trigger from thousands of miles away, not knowing anyone involved, in a culture that refers to the remains of people blown apart by your missiles as "bug splats".
I mainly try to be understanding of other people's viewpoints on here, but your comment is the biggest load of Shyte I have ever encountered on here, my missiles? I have personally ordered them? and have been responsible for their target designation?
And as for seeing innocent people as being "bug splat"
Jeez, just where are you coming from?
 

8ball

Hetero Sapiens
I mainly try to be understanding of other people's viewpoints on here, but your comment is the biggest load of Shyte I have ever encountered on here, my missiles? I have personally ordered them? and have been responsible for their target designation?
And as for seeing innocent people as being "bug splat"
Jeez, just where are you coming from?
Yeah, you just didn't read the post right.

It wasn't about "you" having anything to do with these things - it was about the viewpoint of whoever is determining some consequences to be "acceptable collateral damage".
"Acceptable collateral damage" is a salve the conscience of whomever is pulling the trigger.
 

coley

Well-Known Member
Mao was more lenient towards landlords after their expropriation than Stalin. Rubbish can be transformed into something useful rather than just gotten rid of and buried.

The Vietnamese Communists (Soviet and Chinese-derived politics) deserved what they got I take it? And those in Indonesia?
Starting to think your a bit of a nutter, you keep on making insidious remarks re; me being a landlord, now let's get to grips, are you stating that all people who rent out properties are blood sucking parasites?
 

8ball

Hetero Sapiens
Starting to think your a bit of a nutter, you keep on making insidious remarks re; me being a landlord, now let's get to grips, are you stating that all people who rent out properties are blood sucking parasites?
This is beginning to sound like a bit of a guilt/paranioa thing now.
 

coley

Well-Known Member
Yeah, you just didn't read the post right.

It wasn't about "you" having anything to do with these things - it was about the viewpoint of whoever is determining some consequences to be "acceptable collateral damage".
"Acceptable collateral damage" is a salve the conscience of whomever is pulling the trigger.
Fair point, but, and this is the killer, if the collateral damage is a relatively small number of people in a faraway Indian/ Asian village compared to scores or hundreds killed in an attack on a major European transport hub?
Everyday dozens and scores of people are killed around the world in terrorist attacks and these atrocities hardly make the news, unless it's here in Europe or the US etc, oh bugger, I'm tired and trying to understand this Shyte is so utterly depressing.
 

seventh bullet

red mullet
Starting to think your a bit of a nutter, you keep on making insidious remarks re; me being a landlord, now let's get to grips, are you stating that all people who rent out properties are blood sucking parasites?
Yep. But not necessarily 'blood-sucking'. I was just winding you up with the other stuff though. Throwing it in when you and two sheds try and tag-team me and expose the Stalinist within. But I am not deterministic like Stalin was. You aren't some irredeemable enemy who is to be liquidated, no ifs no buts. You have got to do what is in your best interests. I dont 'hate' you for that. Eventually people are going to have to make a decision on which side they are on.
 

coley

Well-Known Member
Yep. But not necessarily 'blood-sucking'. I was just winding you up with the other stuff though. Throwing it in when you and two sheds try and tag-team me and expose the Stalinist within. But I am not deterministic like Stalin was. You aren't some irredeemable enemy who is to be liquidated, no ifs no buts. You have got to do what is in your best interests. I dont 'hate' you for that. Eventually people are going to have to make a decision on which side they are on.
Sorry, but me and two sheds aren't trying to tag you, haven't even met or PM,d two sheds, but mebbes to illustrate a point, I'm reluctantly a "landlord" and I hate that term, but my tenants pay the most low rent available under HB and have the right to buy the homes they live in at any time at the price I bought it plus an average of the index link.
I'm not in anyway apologising for what I do, or who I am, I'm a working class bloke who took a chance, I sunk my redundancy payment into offering homes in the community to people with learning difficulties, something my wife and I had done on a voluntary scheme for years before the 93 "care in the community act"
The 93 act gave us no choice,we either had to become a ' business' or give up on the people we cared for, as a result we bought houses to provide accommodation for those we had previously provided respite for, and who's parents had reluctantly decided they couldn't manage to provide adequate care for anymore.

What really pisses me off, is when we started we paid above what is now considered the "living wage" but having not had a fee increase for nearly six years we are reduced to paying just above the minimum wage and should we not be able to negotiate a fee increase come Friday then 28 people in one of the most depressed areas of the UK will be facing redundancy.
Yours, an "enemy of the people"
 

seventh bullet

red mullet
You don't have to justify yourself or apologise for what you do. Jesus. And if I remember correctly this tit for tat insulting all started when you got very touchy about a joke caption for some photo a while back that wasn't even directed at you. Plenty air violent fantasies on here. Who hasn't wanted to machine-gun some Tory? It represents impotence not strength. We need to vent. This society is a very cold, horrible place for a lot of people. The vrag naroda thing was a piss-take the other day in a post that was in your defence. I have clearly upset you in general recently and I am sorry for that.
 
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